Is perceived racism / bigotry actual racism / bigotry?

Principessa

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*snip*
Some background. Before I left Ireland I was totally impervious to anti-Irish humour. It did not effect me one way or the other. Then I lived in the UK for a while and the levels of prejudice I encounter knocked me sideways. I know exactly what you mean! It's like that scene in Pretty Woman at the polo match where Richard Gere's friend propositions her as a hooker. Even though she is well dressed and better behaved than many others there.


In certain circumstances racist/sexist remarks are like being physically sucker punched. Make no mistake I never forget I am Black, but there is something about the physical context that makes these comments worse.

For me, oddly enough racism is worse in cyberspace because you see the words. They are real and tangible, you can go back to them and re-visit the hurt. What often makes the offending statement even worse is knowing that others I considered friends or at the very least intelligent read the same thing I did and saw nothing wrong with it.

I always thought the English anti-Irish humour was innocuous enough - it came from some bad history and was heightened by the political situation in the 70's and 80's (also the 90's but less so) - but essentially I believed it to be akin to Kerryman* humour in Ireland.

What I encountered in the UK varied between outright hostility and an ingrained unthinking bigotry. It seemed that a lot of the people I had dealings with - some of whom I had been friends with for many years - had just been brought up to think that way. Going to the bathroom in work I was asked not to leave my handbag behind me 'you know, just in case like, hahaha'. My accent was ridiculed, my intellect questioned and my qualifications were belittled - on a daily basis. I have sometimes heard the Irish being called the niggers of Europe. Aside from being insulting to Irish I never quite understood. Thank you for explaining this to us.

Now I have many relatives in the UK, both Irish and English and I know that not all English people think or act like that. But that was my experience from the majority of the people I had dealing with. The same has been said by other Irish people I know who've lived there.

The people in question, I think, genuinely believed they were 'just having a laugh' and that I was over-reacting. But for me the joke got really tired really quickly. The 'intention' stopped being relevant. EXACTLY! I wasn't intending to go into that level on detail on one case, mine, but that is where I'm coming from. Sometimes personal perspective makes it a lot harder not to take things personally.

So while I detest the PC brigade and think there is room to laugh at stereotypes when it is clear the stereotype is not being taken seriously, I also think that people need to be aware that their own levels of what is acceptable can't be imposed on others.


* Kerry - a county in the south of Ireland, often the butt of jokes about stupidity (I no longer tell Kerryman jokes, btw)
 

tessa42fma

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Careful:

Plays to racial and religious stereotypes.:

Plays to social stereotype:

Plays to racial stereotype.:

I know you were only joking in all those cases too, but there is latent offense in all those remarks. I know I'm reaching but you see my point. We all gaff from time to time, it's not intented to cause offence, ,mostly it doesn't but when you talk in absolutes you set yourself up.

The fact that they were said in jest, doesn't make them funny in the least. Your words, not mine. :rolleyes: Nice try DONG20; but you forgot the cardinal rule of racial humor. In America, as a Black person I am allowed to make these jokes and use the "N word " whilst White people cannot.

Also intonation and emotion cannot be felt or heard in print hence my prolific use of smilies in many of my posts. As for this post it was clear at that point that everyone was making a joke of a thread that has been reiterated in various forms here over many years.

If the OP had said, "gosh I'm thick today, you'll have to excuse me I'm Irish." That would be entirely different. It then becomes not racism or bigotry but self-deprecating humor. That does not mean that other Irish folk in earshot wouldn't take offense but they would most likely cut her some slack.

NJ,
At the risk of seeming facetious, could you please CITE this alleged cardinal rule? I, as a woman of color(albeit, a very light-skinned woman of african, west indian, latin american, scottish & lakota sioux descent), take offense at many of the posts in which you perpetuate stereotypes. I have witnessed, in my short 44 years on this earth, that this kind of internalized oppression, even when used as humor, can be just as demeaning and caustic as if a racist said it.

I am of the school of thought that this kind of talk eats away at the hope of improving race relations and eradicating stereotypes & bigotry. And hope, as Cornell West said, "enacts the stance of the participant who actively struggles against the evidence in order to change the deadly tides of wealth inequality, group xenophobia (racial intolerance), and personal despair. Only a new wave of vision, courage, and hope can keep us sane – and preserve the decency and dignity requisite to revitalize our energy for the work to be done."

I also believe, and try to live by, the words of Gandhi:
"We must be the change we wish to see."
 

spaox

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LOL! Good one!

This disturbed me a bit. We're "stupid", so fair game as prey, eh? Hmm...

It goes both ways though. I had a Brasilian "pen-pal", who, the first thing he did when he met me, was to jump me, when I thought that we were just friends.

PEOPLE like sex, no matter where they're from. Some people like it more than others, and geography has no bearing on that. The only real differences are how, culturally, we're influenced with expressing it.

Dude you should not get disturbed when someone points out reality...It is very true, however embarrasing, that ppl travel to Latin America seeking sexual gratification with us poor sexual savages... I don't mean to condone anyone preying on others, just stating a fact that western men are highly preyed upon in Brasil when they come with stereotypes in their heart. Take it however you will...

I am only stating that there is a stereotype about cultures and racial minorities that are disturbing and this one happens to affect me personally...My apologies on behalf of my brother who attempted to ravage you.
 

tessa42fma

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What often makes the offending statement even worse is knowing that others I considered friends or at the very least intelligent read the same thing I did and saw nothing wrong with it.

NJ,
Unfortunately, that's the sad & painful truth... I've experienced that too. When I was living in L.A. I ended several friendships after the 1992 civil unrest.

Over the years, I've had to learn to pick my battles wisely... and choose suitable 'weapons' in order to speak out, stand up & "not be judged by the color of [my] skin [or lack thereof, lol] but by the content of [my] character." (M.L. King Jr., "I Have A Dream" Speech, 8/28/63)
 

Principessa

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NJ,
At the risk of seeming facetious, could you please CITE this alleged cardinal rule?
Are you serious? It's not in the bible if that's what you mean. :mad: I'm only 3 years younger than you. You can't possibly have never heard what I said being voiced by Blacks and Whites alike. It was one of the issues at the core of the Don Imus incident for chrissakes! I, as a woman of color(albeit, a very light-skinned woman of african, west indian, latin american, scottish & lakota sioux descent), take offense at many of the posts in which you perpetuate stereotypes. WTF?!? :eek: Then I strongly suggest you put me on ignore. I have witnessed, in my short 44 years on this earth, that this kind of internalized oppression, even when used as humor, can be just as demeaning and caustic as if a racist said it.
I have never forgotten from whence I came. Nor do I believe that I am perpetuating stereotypes either here or IRL.
 

b.c.

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I haven't had time to read over every statement on this topic so I may be repeating what's been already said. It indeed is an interesting and complex topic.

The problem behind racist/bigoted statements and those perceived as such is that delicate balance between, intent, timing, context, audience, and (most importantly) perception.

Perception plays a very big role in defining what may or may not be considered racist. Take MB's story of her personal experiences for example. Prior to certain experiences, she would not have been offended by the remarks she found objectionable. This is key to understanding the perception of certain individuals.

People most often define racism/bigotry by the sum of their person life experiences. You can't just make a blanket dismissal of such perceptions as being politically correct posturing or the playing of some "card" just to make points or make another feel bad.

By virtue of our experiences our perception of racism is changed so that people who experience some form of bigotry has a heightened sense of awareness of it. It's not that we should all "move to France" just because life experiences have sensitized us to those emotions.

There's an interesting experiment that is often a part of sensitivity training whereas the group or class in session take part in role playing. For example they may be told just to ignore some minority in the group, usually a minority that is not subjected to discrimination in normal life settings (e.g. people with blond hair). Usually just that one session alone is eye opening enough for most who participate.

Of course, as Naughty so eloquently put it, there has to also be an awareness of one's audience. There are some things that one may say to a friend or another member of your social/racial group, even in a heated debate, in person that just shouldn't be said in "mixed company".

Take this "shameless negro" comment for example. Definitely not for a forum such as this in the context in which it was presented. (I don't recall whether the comment was part of a posted p.m. or not).

Between black folk, when we call each other such, it is not so much a racial comment as it is a personal comment on how one person feels or thinks the other has conducted himself. The person saying this is suggesting the other has conducted him or herself in a way unbefitting of one's own race.

Now, by no means should this be taken as a defense of the comment or the person making it. I'm just trying to explain what it usually means. I will personally say the characterization was and is unbefitting of Lex, because he has always shown himself to be a level headed and quite insightful individual. Therefore I respect his opinions and certainly his right to choose whomever he considers a friend. I think the comment was unwarranted... that's just my opinion.

But again, in the context of where and when the comment was made, it was perceived by others here as a racist comment as well. Now, is not that perception just as valid as all others?

Certainly there are comedians who have a repertoire of race based humor. We all laugh at it and even nod our head in approval in recognition of stereotypical perceptions of ourselves.

But we also have seen in a recent well publicized stand up performance how quickly the line can be crossed... when racial stereotypes cease to be humorous.

Again the contributing factors were intent, timing, context, audience, and perception.
 

B_ScaredLittleBoy

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I'm sorry if I offended you!

The 'I like you. Even if you are Irish' was intended in good humour. The funny part (only to me it would seem) was that I like you whether you're Irish or not :tongue:

Tu cassait ma coeur avec vos mots...lol. Je suis desole bebe :redface:
 

B_ScaredLittleBoy

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Anyway, re: the topic. When I said it it was meant to be light hearted and to cheer her up after the repeated abuse she received in the thread. I thought it was like 'I like you. Even if you are a klutz' (those types of things). But apparently not so!

As for simcha talking about the unconscious mind, I was fully aware of what I was writing at the time. Unfortunately I wasn't aware of the different interpretations one could have of what I said. It wasn't my subconscious hatred of the Irish coming forth. I don't hate the Irish. I have quite a few Irish family members!

The nasty, intentional racism and other 'isms are of course bad and should not be tolerated. What I have noticed, which I actually wanted to make a thread about was on those porn sites with big black guys. You get all the white guys being really racist (obviously because they feel inadequate). Some of it is really disturbing and nasty. Overtly and obviously so.

So, I would say there are three kinds of bigotry/racism

1. Unintended/misconstrued
2. People that don't know any better
3. Unashamed, 'hardcore' racists and bigots.

I was, in one post. Type 1! :redface:
 

SpoiledPrincess

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I think if something is unacceptable it's unacceptable whoever says it and pleading you're part of that minority doesn't make it acceptable. It seems in today's pc world that if you're part of a minority then anything you say is overlooked because of your civil liberties and it's only the majority who can be accused of racism. However I think some people should lighten up and take what is often meant as a joke with a friend as a joke.

Recently on BigBrother Jade Goody came under fire for making a racist remark, it went totally unremarked on that Jermaine Jackson had called Jade's mother poor white trash. If a black guy is killed by a group of white youths it's called a race crime, if a white guy is killed by a group of black youths the race issue is avoided.

If laws against spreading racial hate and discrimination etc (which we have in the UK) are to have any effect they've got to be used even handedly across the board, in the UK they're not being used this way, they're only being used to protect the rights of the minority, we should all have equal rights but some minorities look for slurs as if there's a prize for finding them.
While not being a part of any group that's recognised as a racial minority, I am a woman and as any woman will tell you we come for more than our fair share of remarks stereotyping us, and I'm also Welsh and I don't really give a toss if anyone makes jokes about sheep shaggers.
 

Matthew

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I think there's a huge difference between an insult that includes the insulter in its sting. If I call you a faggot, there's automatically a ridiculous quality to it -- I'm insulting myself by definition. Even if somehow I could say it and mean it, the worst it could imply is that I'm saying you're as bad as me.

And beyond that, words have known cultural connotations and carry history with them. It's inescapable. In particular, slurs used by members of a dominant or majority culture can symbolize harsh inequalites of the present and past. It should be no surprise that invoking those symbols invites a particular kind of anger in response. And hey - if it's your right to say it, it's the right of others to criticize you for it.

So for my part, I absolutely do sometimes feel differently about an insult depending on its source, its target and all kinds of other factors of context.
 

B_lisasdong

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you forgot the cardinal rule of racial humor. In America, as a Black person I am allowed to make these jokes and use the "N word " whilst White people cannot.

Whoa, WHOA.

I know I'm new here, but as a black woman, this thread caught my eye, and I have to say, again, as a black woman, this is TOTAL B.S.

Nobody should be saying "nigger", regardless of the color of their skin. I'm so sick of black people making such a claim, saying that they have a privileged position with regard to language or anything else, so that they cannot be considered racist. Black people's use of the word, or certain concepts, etc., is not only just as racist, but maybe moreso.

The postmodernists' argument that the context defines the reality doesn't apply here. It's a nice bit of logic, but as a practical matter black folks' glomming onto the argument as a convenient dodge serves to create and perpetuate racism. I'm sick of it, and I'm a little shocked that no one else has really called out this person before now.
 

Osiris

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Whoa, WHOA.

I know I'm new here, but as a black woman, this thread caught my eye, and I have to say, again, as a black woman, this is TOTAL B.S.

Nobody should be saying "nigger", regardless of the color of their skin. I'm so sick of black people making such a claim, saying that they have a privileged position with regard to language or anything else, so that they cannot be considered racist. Black people's use of the word, or certain concepts, etc., is not only just as racist, but maybe moreso.

The postmodernists' argument that the context defines the reality doesn't apply here. It's a nice bit of logic, but as a practical matter black folks' glomming onto the argument as a convenient dodge serves to create and perpetuate racism. I'm sick of it, and I'm a little shocked that no one else has really called out this person before now.

As a black man, I do not use this word with me because I don't want to use the "accepted double standard", plus I do not like that word used as a descriptor of my ethnicity as it is a disrespectful to the grand historic culture we come from. My basic view is if you call yourself that, you have just made it open season for ANYONE to call you that. Good, bad, black, or white.

I also apply this with my gay friends. Lesbo, fag, etc. Derogatory gay names are outlawed as well. If they choose to use them, fine. I however think that all people (black, white, gay, straight, etc.) deserve common decency and respect. A lesson the religious bigots could learn from Christ who embraced all men.

Sorry. I'm off my soapbox... And still waiting for wldhoney to get here in that lacey thong. :wink:
 

ManlyBanisters

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I have sometimes heard the Irish being called the niggers of Europe. Aside from being insulting to Irish I never quite understood. Thank you for explaining this to us.

The Irish were (are?) referred to as the 'niggers' of Europe because, difference in skin colour aside (which I hope we can all agree is fundamentally meaningless), the treatment of the Irish (or specifically the Catholic Irish) was no different from that of the African people at the same time.

A few links for anyone who cares to read more:
Irish Slavery in America
Ireland's OWN: History
Racism
Ireland's Slavery Memorial Day? - Indymedia Ireland

I'm sorry if I offended you!

The 'I like you. Even if you are Irish' was intended in good humour. The funny part (only to me it would seem) was that I like you whether you're Irish or not :tongue:

Tu cassait ma coeur avec vos mots...lol. Je suis desole bebe :redface:

Like I said, man, I'm cool with you - once you realised your comment had offended you retracted it and apologised - I really wasn't having a go at you personally.

Tu es toujours bien venue chez moi, pour ecouter 'l'artiste' ensemble, fumer un bon petard et peut etre plus, mon ami.
 

ManlyBanisters

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That does seem offensive to me. Much unlike, say, someone making the observation that all Americans are stupid. Which of course everyone knows is true.

I'm fairly sure you're referring to that spat we had where I took seriously something you said in jest (about Iraq) - but I'm damned if I can find it. I don't actually recall saying, or even implying, that all Americans are stupid. If you can find where I say that and bung me the link I'll be more than happy to eat my words along with some humble pie.
 

Osiris

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I'm fairly sure you're referring to that spat we had where I took seriously something you said in jest (about Iraq) - but I'm damned if I can find it. I don't actually recall saying, or even implying, that all Americans are stupid. If you can find where I say that and bung me the link I'll be more than happy to eat my words along with some humble pie.

Not all Americans are stupid. Some of us are a bit more reality challenged than others, but not necessarily stupid. :smile:
 

ManlyBanisters

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Not all Americans are stupid. Some of us are a bit more reality challenged than others, but not necessarily stupid. :smile:

Well, I haven't met 'all Americans' so I can't comment - I have met some extremely intelligent Americans with a rather polarized view of the world - I have met some quite intelligent Americans who were extremely aware of global current affairs and America's place in the wider scheme of things. I have met plenty of Americans of average intelligence. I've actually only met one stupid American I can think of.

That's why I hope I didn't say, imply or even have been read as saying I think all Americans are stupid, because I don't - and it isn't even my experience of those I have met.

I get your point about reality challenged - though I would call it skewed perspective.