Is Romance Dead?

Discussion in 'Women's Issues' started by MsLulu, Nov 25, 2005.

  1. MsLulu

    MsLulu New Member

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    This isn't a sexual question, but more of a commentary (hopeful for input) on the state of romance in our society today. Irionic that I'm asking on a message board dedicated to penis size, but ahh well. :D

    I'm one of those women who believes in romance and feels that chivalry and the art of "being a gentleman" is truly a dwindling thing. Sadly, I feel that women (generally speaking) are to blame: too much nagging, too much whining, too much bra-burning. (Sorry ladies, I love my lingerie!) Have women turned men into belching, x-box addicted pussies?

    I know I'm speaking on stereotypes. After all, you can't watch television w/o seeing a commercial with a typical "husband" (usually resembling "Yes, Dear" actors) who have utterly hot wives with perfect bodies. The woman is nagging him about something and he's lounging on the couch stuffing his face with pizza or drinking beer oogling a beer-bikini model on television. I know not all men are like this, but it certainly doesn't help when kids grow up thinking that's what men and women are supposed to be.

    I'm a closet Jane Austen fan. Yeah, go on with the teasing. I've no intention of changing. I love the romance, the chivalry, the stifled passion and the purity of it all: learning to love at first sight and longing for those bells and whistles. In a day where we have cell phones, text messaging, online dating services, sex on the first date . . . perhaps there is no room for this kind of thinking: that romance will indeed survive without being dumbed down by today's media.

    Hmm, perhaps I'm simply being too philosophical tonight, or hopeless. Either way....

    Thoughts? Are men too intimidated to go the romantic route? Afraid a woman will get offended if he behaves in a gentleman(ly) manner? This is 2005: I'm not expecting a man to dash across the countryside on horseback or to partake in a duel to the death to defend my honor. But, a little chilvary goes a long way. Why is it such a rarity?

    Inquiring Minds want to know.

    lulu
     
  2. nick22ca

    nick22ca Member

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    I think it's just human progression. I'd stop looking at it as a lack of romance and chivalry, and as a gain of equality. Of course, that alone is bullshit since gender disparity is still widespread. I also think you can be a gentleman and not be chilvarous...to me chivalry is archaic. It's time to adopt a new series of rules when it comes to showing mutual respect.
     
  3. madame_zora

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    I have to agree. I will open the door for anyone behind me, it's just courteous. I don't need a man to walk all the way around a car to open my door, he can unlock it from inside if he's driving.

    MsLulu, I think there is a wide variety of "what women want" which is confusing to both genders. What one woman adores, another finds repulsive. Now more than ever, I think it's important to look at the whole picture to try to grasp if your potential partner is on the same page as you, so both can be happy without placing unrealisitc expectations on one another. There are still plenty of "gentlemen" out there, you just have to find what you want.
     
  4. BobLeeSwagger

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    To me it depends on what is meant by "chivalry." If it means pushing in her chair at a restaurant or holding doors, then I find that outdated. It's from a time when women were considered delicate and fragile and needed to be placed on a pedestal.

    But if it means treating her with respect while letting a relationship take it's course, with various stages of courtship, then yes.
     
  5. MsLulu

    MsLulu New Member

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    Oh, I certainly agree that times have changed, but I do not think some of the changes are good. As I said, I'm not looking for a man to walk all the way around to the other side of a car to open a door for me (though I would be delighted if he did.) I'm speaking in basic ideas: honor, compassion, courtesy. As MZ stated, I usually hold the door open for anyone, no matter the gender, but I see less and less people (in general) do this. And usually, the only time a guy does it is:

    A. when he's been raised by parents who instilled this idea of courtesy within
    B. when a guy is on a date with a girl
    C. when the girl walking in is extremely hot and x_guy goes out of his way to "look" the gentleman, but promptly lets the door slam into the face of the plain woman behind said_model (I see this one more often than I care to admit.)

    A friend of mine was walking on ice and she fell. Three men with us and not a single one stopped to help her up. I did my best, but honestly? I'm not as strong and maybe a guy could have been more of use.

    I'm all for equality of mind, spirit, work, occupation, respect... but I also know men are built differently than women are: physically (duh! or half of us wouldn't even be on this board.)

    But, there's also a part of me that doesn't HATE being treated "like a lady" and as I was always brought up to try and act like one in public (don't even get me started on how young women act in this day and age, that's another topic altogether,) I suppose I get a bit discouraged when people in general seem to have lost all etiquette.

    I think it's a big reason I'm alone and have been for a long time. I'm holding out for something that may not exist anymore, though I'm perfectly aware that the days of the 1800's are long gone (hugs her car and computer!)

    And yes, women are different. I have friends who HATE being "treated like a lady," but ya know what? Most love it. I'm just a little pissed that the nazi feminist regime has turned some men (albeit not all) into raging pussies who have to ask before they kiss a gal or who have to bring their lawyer along on dates to make sure they don't get slapped with a sexual harassment lawsuit.
     
  6. Pecker

    Pecker Retired Moderator
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    My favorite novel is Jane Austin's Mafia.
     
  7. ClaireTalon

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    I absolutely love gentleman manners, as long as they don't exceed a line where it starts getting uncomfortable. When I go out with a guy, and he opens the car door for me, pulls out my chair at the table, is discreet and keeps the conversation flowing without blabbering his mouth off, it's a wonderful feeling. My reputation is a different, but I appreciate it if a guy has manners and doesn't behave like a savage in public (we can still do that in my bed, or car, or...).

    But romance hasn't much to do with that for me - romance is a mood, an ambience, something like that, to me, it's things like candles, soft music, dinner, wine, a beach walk at night, tuning the radio to an all-night oldies station ("Everybody loves somebody sometimes", "Dream a little dream of me", my favorites) and stargazing from a deserted piece of road. It's something likeable, and enjoyable, but in my eyes it's nothing necessary. In fact, reality and realism conditions often put flaws and scratches to it, so I always say, "The idea counts".

    What's sad is that many guys of the "modern" type exaggerate and pull pretty effeminate stunts. I am attracted by an old-fashioned kind of man, someone who'd rather kiss me once than tell me a thousand times how beautiful I look - I don't like big talkers. Anyone knows the 60's movie "Mirage", with Gregory Peck playing a physicist with amnesia, meeting a mysterious woman named Sheila, played by Diane Baker? I have it on a video, and just love one scene, where she asks him to give her his word that he loves her, and he replies, "How can someone who doesn't know who he is give his word?", and when she turns away, he just holds her back and kisses her... sorry, I don't tend to become melodramatic. The point I'm trying to make is that the kind of romance I like is dying out. I arranged with that fact, but still, I'm pins and needles when I sense it in the air with a guy.
     
  8. dlcs

    dlcs New Member

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    Common courtesy. Which unfortunately is not all that common in our society any more. What I get from Lulu is that there are men out there who seem to think that being nice, helping others, and generally not being an asshole has become somehow "unmanly". Sound right?

    The definition of a man goes way beyond biology and how it supposedly informs their behavior.
     
  9. Ryandaoc

    Ryandaoc New Member

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    Mslulu,

    Chilvary is not dead. I consider myself old fashioned but I still do many of the things that men seem to longer do.

    I still:
    A. Hold the door for a woman. Especially if she is carrying something or is pushing a stroller.
    B. I still bring my wife flowers for no reason (been married 13 years).
    C. I still ask her out on a date and get the kids a sitter and suprise her with a night out.
    D. I open the car door when we are doing something special. But not everyday.
    E. I buy her gifts just because.
    F. I assist women accross the ice, over rough surfaces, when it's raining, etc.
    G. I prepare warm baths with candles and music so she can relax while I keep the kids busy.

    I'm sure that I am missing things, but you get the point. I still find being romantic and a gentlemen is a welcome characteristic. Just the other day a woman commented that it was rare to find a gentleman as I held the door for her and helped her carry her packages to her office. She offered me a gift for helping and I told her to put it in the Salvation Army bucket on her way out.

    I do not consider myself to be any less masculine or tough because of this. As a matter of fact, I am more confident in my manhood because of these things. I appreciate a woman for all that she is and can be.

    Women don't "need" help. But it is offering that I show the respect that I think you deserve. I only hope that when my mom, sister, wife and female friends need a helping hand, that there is someone there extending tha that hand to help them with a door or over an icey patch.

    And to add one more thing...I am raising my boys to do the same. Woe be unto them when they forget to add a "Yes ma'am" when a lady asks them if they learned these behaviors from their Dad. :)
     
  10. dlcs

    dlcs New Member

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    Yay!
    Reminds me of a quote I found somewhere...

    "Something I've discovered is that, when you honor a woman, you are honoring yourself. Why? Because someday you will have regret, and the regret will last much longer than the pleasure. In the movie Rob Roy, the main character says, "Honor is a gift a man gives himself." When you honor a woman by doing what you know to be right in your heart (that is, what's in her best interest), you honor yourself and insure that you will have no long-lasting regrets to live with."

    I forget where I found that. Some website a guy wrote about his plans to give up meaningless sex. Will try to find it and post the link.

    www.everystudent.com

    He kinda goes into the role of God in a relationship, but overall his whole position is about respecting women as people.
     
  11. Matthew

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    It's funny how different people's perceptions can be. I feel that the wave of the women's movement that arose in the 60s-70s is ebbing now, and has less and less influence on how society runs and especially on how men behave. I think it's much more in vogue to be a man's man, that chivalry does exist but mostly as a song-and-dance to get some pussy, and that nowadays it's bros before ho's, so to speak. Nazi feminist regime?? From my perspective, the pendulum has swung a looooong way in the other direction. The whole concept of a 'nazi feminist regime' (show me where 'they' have real power) speaks to a cult of masculinity that is culturally in charge these days. 'Boys can be boys' more than at any point in the last several decades.
     
  12. BobLeeSwagger

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    I don't think you can use that an excuse for being alone. There are plenty of guys out there who go out of their way to do those things and are disappointed when a woman doesn't go wild with appreciation. But I think you're in the minority here. Some women like it, but a lot of others find it totally obsolete. (However, a very large number of women expect you to always pay for the date. Funny how that is!) If you're looking for an old-fashioned gentleman, you'll just have to look harder.

    An example: I went on a date once with a woman who at one point stayed in the car and waited for me to walk around and open the door for her. I found this annoying, not because it's such a weird thing to do, but the attitude she had with it. She was signaling me that this was how it was going to be, that I'd have to be at her beck and call for this kind of thing. Needless to say, there wasn't a second date. But in the long run I'm glad she did it, because she was honestly conveying what kind of guy she was looking for and she was doing it early on. She was looking for someone compatible and I wasn't it. I'm certain she found a guy who would.
     
  13. madame_zora

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    Being alone is still preferable to being in an unhappy relationship, for whatever reason. If I don't find myself adequately compatible with someone I'd rather be fwbs than to attempt to turn it into more than it is.
    I fully expect to be alone for a long time because my list of "wants" for a relationship are somewhat unrealistic, or at least won't be easy to fill. That being said, I'm perfectly content with things as they are, so in order for me to be willing to make a change, I'd have to believe that a relationship would add more to my life than it would take away.

    Women generally can't compete with men physically, and I detest lowering standards in the workplace to include them. If a woman is one of those exceptional ones who can do a construction job as well as a man, she should be prepared to carry the same load, not get the nearest guy to lift the heavy stuff for her. I am especially cognisant of anyone less "able" than myself who may be in need of assistance with little things like opening heavy doors, bus seats and the like. I'm stronger than average and feel it is my self-chosen obligation to make things easier for those around me, but this is not because I feel they are ineffectual, it's just my way of trying to be a nice person. If a man holds a door for me, I will respond with a sincere "thank you" because I recognise that he is doing what I frequently do, and I appreciate that. If he does not, he is saying that he feels I am capable of doing it for myself and I appreciate that as well. Personally, I would be uncomfortable with a man that always felt it was necessary to do those sorts of things, because I would feel he saw me in a less-competent light.

    Women who blither on about equality and never offer to split the check or take turns paying for outings should be shot. This is another area of antiquated thinking and makes those of us who truly do understand what equality is all about look suspicious. Generally, I feel that whoever makes the most money should pay the most frequently, but the job of paying for things should be shared, according to income. Times I've dated men who made significantly less than me, I've expected very little contribution from them for our dating. I don't feel that dating should be an unnecessary financial drain on anyone, and if you're on similar financial planes, things should be shared evenly. However, if one of you makes 100k and the other makes 20k, obviously splitting things evenly would place an unfair burden on the one who makes less. I'm tickled silly if a broke guy takes me to Taco Bell because he's living within his means and still trying to show me he cares.
     
  14. MsLulu

    MsLulu New Member

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    Wow, talk about some awesome replies. Claire, girl..... you are an angel! :)
     
  15. Aplus

    Aplus New Member

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    I just think times are changing. Kids are growing up much tougher and hardcore IMO. Maybe it varies from community to community, but I think we live in a much more angry society, I definitely notice that rougher edge among young people. Surprisingly, a lot of younger women seem almost turned-off by romantic or generally nice guys. I know women have always been attracted to bad boys, but I think younger women are attracted to the bad boys at a much higher rate then before. Maybe I'm reading things wrong, but its something I notice everyday.

    I think we live in a much more electronic society now also. Kids and adults stay in a lot more than they used to with their cell phones, playstations, dvd's and cd's, big televisions, satellite and cable tv, expensive stereo systems, computers, or toys. There was a thing in the media awhile ago about guys not taking women to the movies as much as they used to, and I agree with it.
     
  16. ClaireTalon

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    I don't at all mind bad streaks about guys. I don't think I could stay with a guy who's thoroughbred good'n'nice boy, I'd not feel well around him. But having a bad streak, and knowing how to make a woman feel like a lady just strikes my chords - resonates all through me. It's also something erotic to be edgy, I love it much better than being just smooth - amorphous is the word here. If a guy stands up for his points of view, steps into the breach and takes the lead, that is erotic, to me.

    I completely agree, however, with what you say about the "electronic society". I've been in contact with a lot of younger guys, and the ones who are interesting to me seem to thin out definetly, they seem a lot more inclined to staying at home and around their electronic toys then to be outgoing today, and'd rather download movies or music from the net, burn them on DVDs or CDs than to go out to a movie theater or at least a video store - maybe that's why they lose the edge.
     
  17. B_caneadea

    B_caneadea New Member

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    Dear MsLulu, You have to kiss a few toads before finding your prince. That heart meltingly romantic guy is out there. You just have to find him. Express that that is your desire.
    I agree that TV, magazines, etc. do not portray real life situations very well. My Men's Health magazine is always running articles on how to trick women into dating, sex, etc. Roll my eyes. Maybe most men are desperate inept slobs. I don't think so.;)
    Being a hopeless romantic myself, I am lucky to have found a man who gives as good as he gets. Don't give up.:)
     
  18. Paul Vincent

    Paul Vincent <img border="0" src="/images/badges/member.gif" wi

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    I'm quite chivalrous, quixotic you might say. All those books about Knights must have dried up my brains eh ;)

    And all those episodes of Quantum Leap hehe. Anyway, I thought that guys were supposed to hold doors open for girls, carry their bags/luggage, compliment them etc?

    I do it, doesn't get me much action, of course I'm not lookin for it. I do see girls giving me 'the eye' (usually the left one) and I give them a look back...most of them seem to have boyfriends though. I don't know why they look at me like they do...

    I have a nice girlfriend who appreciates me...she's just very moralistic. *sigh*
    Of course that's a good thing, but I would like to be allowed to show my affection for the lady...

    BTW, I grew up on an 'estate' lol where most guys were tough guys, alcoholics, exteremely anti-academic, or heavily into drugs. That was just the teenagers lol (seriously) but I and all my friends knew I was different from them, from the Norm. He was a crazy bastard that Norm...anyway I spose I myself am a rarity in my home community...maybe chivalry isn't dead, it's just been hunted so much it's become rare?

    If you look too hard you'll miss what you really want...maybe if you didn't put so much hope on it, didn't put a time or a date on it then it would come. Be patient. Good luck too, there are nice guys out there. Romanticists, poets etc.

    But I agree most guys are 'lad's lads'.
     
  19. rob_just_rob

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    Things have definitely gotten a lot more confusing for us men, of late.

    I don't think romance is dead, not by a long shot. I believe in holding doors, complimenting her when she looks good, going out of my way to find a restaurant that serves her favourite meal, and so on. I'm the original sentimental fool.

    And some women appreciate that - and others couldn't care less. Which is fine (to an extent - completely unsentimental people are a turn-off) but often hard to figure out. Woe is he who is sensitive when she wants a bad boy! Particularly when she really wants the bad boy while continuing to insist she wants the nice guy... that one's always left me bewildered (and usually single).

    But really, now... aren't there expectations of courtesy on both sides? I had a really amusing exchange this summer with a woman I had just started seeing. We were walking to my car, and I unlocked and opened the passenger door for her to get in. She did, and I closed her door and walked around to the drivers side and got in. She said I had "passed her test" (by opening her door) and I responded that she had passed mine (by leaning across the front seat to unlock my door).

    I have been out with women who expected me to basically wait on them hand and foot - I even had the rather shocking experience of being asked out to dinner, and then being expected to pick up the tab for both of us, at the end of the date! None of those experiences led to additional dates, but as someone already said, I'm sure that the women in question will eventually find a guy who will happily do all those things.
     
  20. GoneA

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    Once upon a time, I was dating a girl. Now understand, it is in my nature to open doors, give up my seat(s), pay dating expenses, watch my language and/or tone, do all the physical labor, etc. for women. Any road, I did all of this while dating her and, because of it, she left me - while ON a date, no less. She said I wasn't an "asshole" enough for her and "that's what" she "wanted in a man". We had been dating for five months and I really thought things were going pretty well &#8211; just when ya think ya know a gal.

    But I&#8217;m single now and I love it.


    Good thing I am the way I am because an experience like that could really change a guy's perspective on women - for the worse.
     
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