Is the war in the mid-east worth it??

[patro78]

I think you have some persuasive points, rawrs. There does seem to have been an an ambitious geo-political strategy animating the decision to declare war on, invade and subsequently occupy Iraq. This strategy, involving a perhaps utopian plan to use Iraq as a catalyst from which to effect political change in the middle-east favourable to United States (and western) interests, wasn't explicity articulated as a justification for the war, but an investigation of neo-conservative ideology (and the influence that these ideologues had, perhaps still have, on the foreign policy thinking of the Administration) discloses a powerful if subterranean fascination with the idea.

But why would a parallel ambition to secure a significant long-term supply of a precious energy resource, the crucial nature of which is becoming more and more apparent with the rapid industrialisation of China and the corrosive corruption in Saudi Arabia, which corrosion threatens to disrupt the cosy relationship the US has with that later country, be inconsistent with pursuing a more "enlightened" strategy? Couldn't both motivations cohere? Burns surely has persuasive points as well: I don't think we should assume that there was only one reason for going to war. Even if the geo-political strategy was the major reason, there is every further reason to believe that economic interests, and companies like Haliburton etc, would never give up an opportunity to take advantage of the massive profits to be made as a result of the war. In fact, the administration has presented Haliburton with this opportunity; it has at least positively acquiesced in the present situation where United States interests control Iraqi resources.

 

[psidom]

no the war is not worth it.
everybody knows....ask leonard cohen.
it is one of many results of orwellian doublethink.
Mmmm...FOX/NBC/ABC/TIME WARNER.

 

[earllogjam]

Is the war in the mid-east worth it??

How much do you value your dependence on OIL?

Therein lies your answer.

 

[viking1]

A couple of things.

1: After the political shit flings I have seen on other websites, I made up my mind to stay out of such things. I have broken that rule here, and it was a mistake. I must henceforth avoid any mostly political discussions. It's just like religion, it's all opinion and very passion filled. It cannot be proven, and it will always incite a shit flinging contest.

2: Sarcasm doesn't seem to be recognized well here, or taken well, which ever the case may be.

3: Criticism never really works well. It's negative enforcement. Even animal trainers know better. Stomping on somebody does them no good. It only feeds the ego of the person doing the stomping. Somebody suggested I read some of Dale Carnegie books, but I see few here have ever done so.

4: The best advice I have gotten may have been from rob_just_rob. He said I should avoid the "size does matter websites". That may be a good idea. What I don't understand is there were certain others who joined here after I did that had major insecurities. They started several dozen threads and got more and better response, with far fewer stomps than I have. I don't know why they were more well received. What did I do wrong?
I don't see where I have tried to hurt anyone.

I came here for answers. I got some, but not really what I was looking for.
Those answers aren't really available. As least they don't seem to be.
I looked for companionship. Didn't really find that either. A few have been genuine friends (you know who you are) and I appreciate that.
I was looking for justification. I didn't find that either. Not sure I can.
It may well be time to move on. I haven't decided yet, but I will soon.
I am sure most won't care. I am not sure anyone will. Oh well. such as has been my entire life so far...

I do wish everyone well. I really do! Most on here have just as many faults as I have, albeit different ones. Not sure I would trade them. I think not...

 

[HazelGod]

Not trying to flame here, but what economic sense does it make to go to IRAQ for oil? ... Anyone who shoots off America went to Iraq, spent trillions of dollars and thousands of lives...for oil...is really missing the picture here. That goes right in the same category as we never went to the moon, the holocaust never happened, and Richard Simmons has children.

Keep telling yourself that, Pollyanna.

Meanwhile, those with a brain have already moved on beyond the self-evident points and are more concerned with resolution.

I'm saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: The Iraq war is largely about oil.
--Alan Greenspan

 

[D_Neeson Niceone]

Keep telling yourself that, Pollyanna.

Meanwhile, those with a brain have already moved on beyond the self-evident points and are more concerned with resolution.

I'm saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: The Iraq war is largely about oil.
--Alan Greenspan

I forgot to add to that list "GW staged 9/11", that's another good one!

Point is, if you want to argue we went to Iraq for oil, it shouldn't be from the standpoint "we went to Iraq to take their oil". It would be more accurate to say "we went to Iraq out of fear that Saddam had acquired WMDs and therefor might put the region in a crisis - which can drastically affect our supply of oil".

Which brings forth the argument some people make that the information about said WMDs was falsified by the Bush administration. So therefor, the argument is essentially one man (The Man?) manipulated the CIA, NSA, and British intelligence all so his buddy Cheney's Haliburton stock (though Vice Presidents don't have control of their investment portfolios for this reason, but anyways) can go up. If that's actually true, then Bush must be brilliant, lol.

Also I've always been curious what US company everyone thinks should have rebuilt Iraq's oil industry (still a big work in progress, what a mess) as opposed to Haliburton?

Also (what is with me an tangents today!), does all this mean you are for more nuclear power in America?

And if we're gonna pitch some stylish quotes, then lets have some fun about it.

“The popularity of conspiracy theories is explained by people's desire to believe that there is - some group of folks who know what they're doing"
--Damon Knight

Oh and the wisest of us all are the people who know far better than to debate anything on the internet.

 

[psidom]

viking,please do not be offended,take it into consideration.
i understand you not liking talking about it.
you are right it is a very emotional thing,but that is how
the govt wants it. dizzy and hazed,red states and blue states.

it is easy to get riled up on it,not think, and just go with popular opinion.
But, to slow down "look" at the facts and understand takes alot of effort.
it is expected that we won't take the effort.
americans are known as being lazy and dumb.
we need to change that,the govt is counting on it for the NWO.

did you ever see or read "animal farm" by george orwell?

check google video for..."terrorstorm"
if you watch it and think it is all whacko,then so be it.

one of my parents hated the video,the other understood the video.
just check it out once.
if ya get it...this is why alot of people get emotional.
the govt are messing with the constitution and have been for A LONG time.
check out MK ULTRAS as well.
hence this is all SO in depth and requires alot of reading and comprehension.
it sucks but it is IDEAL to understand,it is what our world has become.
they are immobolizing the will of our public through media
creating insecurities and a "false" sense of security.
making people very emotional and hazed.

 

[burns1de]

4: The best advice I have gotten may have been from rob_just_rob. He said I should avoid the "size does matter websites". That may be a good idea. What I don't understand is there were certain others who joined here after I did that had major insecurities. They started several dozen threads and got more and better response, with far fewer stomps than I have. I don't know why they were more well received. What did I do wrong?
I don't see where I have tried to hurt anyone.

It's not about hurting anyone, it's about not wanting to improve yourself. People can only be around someone who complains all the time without trying to improve himself so much. You have to put in some work in order to better yourself, which is something you clearly are not interested in doing. There seems to be little point in trying to help you since you always seem to go back to your tried-and-true formula of sitting on your ass and feeling sorry about yourself, regardless of the great hints and suggestions people have given you over the last months. You'll see a drastic change in how people perceive you and act around you the second you start working on yourself... but that takes work, diligence and - most importantly - a real, inner need of wanting to become a better man. I seriously doubt you have that drive. It's entirely up to you to prove me wrong.

By the way, I'm not writing this to be mean, but I think it's about time someone around here starts being brutally honest with you. Niceties will only get you so far. Sometimes, a kick in the ass is more effective than a tap on the back.

 

[burns1de]

I think you have some persuasive points, rawrs. There does seem to have been an an ambitious geo-political strategy animating the decision to declare war on, invade and subsequently occupy Iraq. This strategy, involving a perhaps utopian plan to use Iraq as a catalyst from which to effect political change in the middle-east favourable to United States (and western) interests, wasn't explicity articulated as a justification for the war, but an investigation of neo-conservative ideology (and the influence that these ideologues had, perhaps still have, on the foreign policy thinking of the Administration) discloses a powerful if subterranean fascination with the idea.

You make a good point. Interestingly enough, the neo-con ideology - and blueprint for Bush I's New World Order - is laid out publicly for everyone to see on the web.

psidom: Woah, anyone who mentions MK ULTRA in a post scores big brownie points with me.

 

[2322]

Which is why I fear fascism in this country far more than I ever feared communism. When people feel disenfranhcised they become reactionary and right now many segments of America feel they are under attack, particularly the neocons whose leadership consistently reinforces the idea via their propaganda wing that Christianity, the American way of life, and "family values" are being whittled away by the Democrats, terrorists, and immigrants. The complete irony is that GWB's cadre has worked tirelessly to open our borders via NAFTA and lack of immigration enforcement, curtail civil rights, and run up a deficit of funded and unfunded obligations that we're expected to someday pay off. The neocon constituency has no idea they're being sold down the river by the very people they support.

The Democrats are no better, essentially selling their position as loyal opposition to a White House happy to write blank checks in exchange for silence.

Right now our economic system is propped-up by smoke and mirrors. Let the markets gain all they want to, but as soon as they start to fall, halt the trading. Keep gold artificially supressed, tax the people up the hoo-ha with inflationary policies to give the feeling of prosperity all the while bleeding them dry.

As the middle class continues to decline in the US, polarization of political ideology will occur. Radicalism will not likely occur until there is a major economic downturn. That's when I have serious questions about what will happen and who the military will support.

Few people will see it coming when it happens.

 

[viking1]

viking,please do not be offended,take it into consideration.
i understand you not liking talking about it.
you are right it is a very emotional thing,but that is how
the govt wants it. dizzy and hazed,red states and blue states.

it is easy to get riled up on it,not think, and just go with popular opinion.
But, to slow down "look" at the facts and understand takes alot of effort.
it is expected that we won't take the effort.
americans are known as being lazy and dumb.
we need to change that,the govt is counting on it for the NWO.

did you ever see or read "animal farm" by george orwell?

check google video for..."terrorstorm"
if you watch it and think it is all whacko,then so be it.

one of my parents hated the video,the other understood the video.
just check it out once.
if ya get it...this is why alot of people get emotional.
the govt are messing with the constitution and have been for A LONG time.
check out MK ULTRAS as well.
hence this is all SO in depth and requires alot of reading and comprehension.
it sucks but it is IDEAL to understand,it is what our world has become.
they are immobolizing the will of our public through media
creating insecurities and a "false" sense of security.
making people very emotional and hazed.

I know what's being done to us by the government. I know they don't care about anything but their money and power. They want us dumb and misinformed. The educational system and the media are a big part of it.
The NWO is coming and nobody will stop it. Notice I didn't say we can't stop it, I said we won't. One world government will come. Maybe in our life times, maybe not. If we all stick together we can do something. It ain't gonna happen. Everybody is too selfish, too greedy. I am not going out here and bust my can or waste my money just to make a political statement. Call me a coward, a pussy, whatever. I don't give a fuck.
When we all, or at least the majority get together, then I'll fight. That will never happen in this country again. Those try to make it a one person show are just fooling and inconveniencing themselves for nothing.
I have observed this on the local level. A handful of people can do nothing.
I have seen it tried, and it failed. The politicians did as they wanted to.
Not enough people got together to get them out of office. I have indeed given up on making a difference in politics. I have seen enough. I still vote but that is all I am going to do unless a large group can form that can really make a difference. It ain't gonna happen. Not around here anyway.
That's why I said we had just as well be content for things to be as they are. A lot of people on here talk big towards activism, but I don't see things changing. I wonder why?


It's just that every last one of these political threads turn into a heated argument. People get mad, call each other idiots, etc. It does no good.
There will never be any agreement. The liberals hate Bush, the conservatives hated Clinton. Some say the Iraq war is only for oil and the good of Bush's oil buddies. Others say it's for other reasons. Unless you are within that circle of power you will never know for sure. At least not for many years. Political theories cannot generally be proven. It's just opinion and philosophy. It's just your opinion. Quite often an emotionally fueled opinion. I prefer to stay out of that. Just like these arguments about religion. Beliefs and emotions cannot be reasoned with, and there's no need to try...

 

[HazelGod]

As the middle class continues to decline in the US, polarization of political ideology will occur. Radicalism will not likely occur until there is a major economic downturn. That's when I have serious questions about what will happen and who the military will support.

Few people will see it coming when it happens.

Speaking of...I spent most of yesterday at a local gun show. Interesting cross section of folks in the crowd, on both sides of the booths.

But $2200 for a .45ACP from Wilson Combat? Daaaaamn!

 

[viking1]

Which is why I fear fascism in this country far more than I ever feared communism. When people feel disenfranhcised they become reactionary and right now many segments of America feel they are under attack, particularly the neocons whose leadership consistently reinforces the idea via their propaganda wing that Christianity, the American way of life, and "family values" are being whittled away by the Democrats, terrorists, and immigrants. The complete irony is that GWB's cadre has worked tirelessly to open our borders via NAFTA and lack of immigration enforcement, curtail civil rights, and run up a deficit of funded and unfunded obligations that we're expected to someday pay off. The neocon constituency has no idea they're being sold down the river by the very people they support.

The Democrats are no better, essentially selling their position as loyal opposition to a White House happy to write blank checks in exchange for silence.

Right now our economic system is propped-up by smoke and mirrors. Let the markets gain all they want to, but as soon as they start to fall, halt the trading. Keep gold artificially supressed, tax the people up the hoo-ha with inflationary policies to give the feeling of prosperity all the while bleeding them dry.

As the middle class continues to decline in the US, polarization of political ideology will occur. Radicalism will not likely occur until there is a major economic downturn. That's when I have serious questions about what will happen and who the military will support.

Few people will see it coming when it happens.

Exactly. It's both parties and nobody who is running is going to do one friggin' thing about it. They may do some things differently, but the end result will be the same. Nobody will react until it's way too late. Hell, it may already be too late...

 

[2322]

Oh I don't know... once the bread and circuses run out the people tend to get antsy. It's the way of despotism. The despot keeps taking more and more and more until finally there's nothing left. That's when things happen.

 

[earllogjam]

A few have been genuine friends (you know who you are) and I appreciate that.
I was looking for justification. I didn't find that either. Not sure I can.
It may well be time to move on. I haven't decided yet, but I will soon.
I am sure most won't care. I am not sure anyone will. Oh well. such as has been my entire life so far...

I do wish everyone well. I really do! Most on here have just as many faults as I have, albeit different ones. Not sure I would trade them. I think not...

I stay out of these religion and politics threads for the same reasons you do. Interesting discussion sometimes but nothing really positive comes out of these threads for me and for you too it seems. I haven't read this whole thread but suffice to say I would be one who would care if you left. I enjoy your posts and point of view here. I don't say that often so hope it says something.

 

[Osiris]

It's just that every last one of these political threads turn into a heated argument. People get mad, call each other idiots, etc. It does no good.
There will never be any agreement. The liberals hate Bush, the conservatives hated Clinton. Some say the Iraq war is only for oil and the good of Bush's oil buddies. Others say it's for other reasons. Unless you are within that circle of power you will never know for sure. At least not for many years. Political theories cannot generally be proven. It's just opinion and philosophy. It's just your opinion. Quite often an emotionally fueled opinion. I prefer to stay out of that. Just like these arguments about religion. Beliefs and emotions cannot be reasoned with, and there's no need to try...

Which is why I am sick to death of these particular threads. Everyday someone has to post a thread and 90% of the time it's someone from overseas bashing on the US and then it turns personal and suddenly all the members from the US are attacking the European and UK members. This is not productive nor is it what most of us come out here for. Some seem to derive joy from starting all this crap on the forum, I for one don't and I'm getting to the same point you are viking. Why bother?

If you only knew how many times I have typed some angry heated response only to delete it upon re-reading and say to myself "Why fuel that fire?" or "Why cater to this hate mongering idiot?"

So to sum it up:

YES, our government isn't perfect any more than we are. NO government is perfect and if you believe there is no such thing as corruption in any government, you're late for your tea party with the March Hare and the Mad Hatter. So this is where we are in the world now and yeah, we are all pissed off about the world's situation on some level, but why take it out on each other? YES some come out here just to piss people off because you find some sick joy in causing all this fighting. You are no better then the people you are condemning for leading to the war you are so upset about.

So to you viking, I give a damn and I also may be right behind you out the door because the fun posts I came to like aren't being posted, it's all political bitching and moaning. And when someone posts a fun post, someone has to come in and kill it with petty attitudes or hurt feelings. THAT is what is scaring potential new members off.

And in my case, probably driving contributing members away.

 

[B_NineInchCock_160IQ]

My theories are backed up by more than opinion. They're highly informed, and not just by the internet or television/radio personalities.

 

[Osiris]

My theories are backed up by more than opinion. They're highly informed, and not just by the internet or television/radio personalities.

My rant wasn't directed at you or anyone in particular. I have found you do back up what you say and I respect that about you.

 

[B_NineInchCock_160IQ]

I was just sayin'...

 

[Freddie53]

Is the war in the mid-east worth it? Depends on who you ask? It certainly is for the Chinese who have been the major benefactor of this war.

If we look at history, we find many, many examples of empires (in America's case we call it a super power, sounds better.) Many of them, though not all, went belly up on trying to make 'just one more expansion) Due to technology at the time, geography, the various cultures of the people and the overall will of the people in the home country of the empire to remain aggressive, there is a limit on how big a particular empire can get before caving in. Napoleon and Hitler failed when they went too far and tried to take Moscow. Hitler compounded that mistake by also getting in a war with America. I'll not give more examples here. You get the picture.

Also when an empire collapses there is another power willing and able to fill the vacuum. Britain was already a world power when Napoleon came along. After Napoleon Britain was the head of the largest empire in history and was without a doubt the super power of the 19th century.

In the case of Hitler, before his empire collapsed he bled the British Empire almost dry. Only America and the rest of the British Empire saved Great Britain itself from collapsing. When Hitler made the mistake of taking on not only Russia, but the United States as well, his fate was sealed. And who was the benefactor of the collapse of the Third Reich Empire, The United States.

From the ashes of the Third Reich came the Anglo-American Empire. The colonies of the British Empire gained their independence and for all practical purposes the The United Kingdom and nations with the Queen as head of state and the United States became joined at the hip as far as foreign policy goes. Since 1945 the Anglo-American Empire has run the show especially after the collapse of the Soviet Empire. Vietnam and a few other examples are there were there wasn't complete agreement, but as far as the world of finance and world order, London and Washington have been where the action is.

But the Anglo-American Empire is in trouble now. To finance this war, the Chinese government has used its people as cheap cheap labor to with American capital from private sources slowly built an industrial complex that within ten years may be the largest industrial complex in the world.

But the US government has financed this war and all the tax cuts with loans from China. When the Chinese government nationalizes all those factories built by American corporation, those corporations will be bankrupt. When the Chinese government demands that the US pay off it government debt to China, the US government will also be bankrupt. That will destroy retirement incomes, stock portfolios by everyday citizens. In short it will be an economic catastrophe.

So has this war along with the tax cuts been worth it? It sure has for the Peoples' Republic of China. They have used it to begin the process of becoming the worlds greatest economic power.

Not only the US will be affected. Taiwan without American military to defend it will have to negotiate the best deal it can to avoid a military invasion.

If the Anglo-American Empire can keep Japan and add India to its empire, then the empire can continue for several more decades.

But here is the deal. In 1945 the main capital of the Empire shifted from London to Washington. In fifty years, the capital of this empire may be New Delhi, India or it may shift back to Europe as the European Union might become unified enough to speak with one voice.

This war has been great for who? China.