Is the Writing on the Wall for the US Auto Industry

[viking1]

The US auto industry has had decades to improve, steamline and innovate. By and large, it hasn't.

I don't believe its because there isn't enough engineering talent, artistic creativity and marketing know-how remaining in the USA. Rather, I think the decline is mainly because the auto manufacturers' upper management, followed closely by the employee unions, are more interested in wages, salaries, benefits, perks, and bonuses than building a quality product.

Exactly! The same reason that so much heavy industry has left the U.S.
The same reason that our whole country is going down the tubes. Greed...

Diesel powered light vehicles (except for pickup trucks) don't sell well here. Two reasons. 1: People haven't forgotten the "junk" diesels sold here in the late 70's and early 80's. 2: The pampered spoiled brats here can't put up with diesel fumes, knock, or hard starting when cold. That's just way too much of an inconvenience for most of us...

 

[BigDuder]

viking, those seem like good reasons to me.

 

[EagleCowboy]

Somebody loan me the money to buy Ford and Chrysler, and I guarantee a much finer product!! What better person to run those companies than a gearhead that actually LIKES those brands. Seriously.

If you really want to go green, want to buy a car that's made in the states, is 100% all-electric, and even has a solar panel option for the house so it doesn't raise your electric bill any, does 0-60 in UNDER 4 seconds, *AND* has a range of 250 miles. If I had the money, I'd get one!! My only question is (aside from the car manufacturers being in bed with the oil companies) *WHY* can't the automakers give us cars like this?!?

Tesla Motors

 

[Principessa]

Exactly! The same reason that so much heavy industry has left the U.S.The same reason that our whole country is going down the tubes. Greed...

Diesel powered light vehicles (except for pickup trucks) don't sell well here. Two reasons. 1: People haven't forgotten the "junk" diesels sold here in the late 70's and early 80's. 2: The pampered spoiled brats here can't put up with diesel fumes, knock, or hard starting when cold. That's just way too much of an inconvenience for most of us...

Hey, I am a pampered spoiled brat and I still miss my moms first put-put. That's what we used to call her 1974 baby blue Mercedes Benz 240D. It got awesome mileage, was not hard to start in the winter and cornered like it was on rails. I learned to drive on that car. It was a rude awakening when years later I took some local hairpin curves in an American made car.

Her 2nd diesel was a cream 1983 Mercedes Benz 300 Turbo D. Much better pick-up, but not made as well as the 1974. It had all sorts of stupid problems.

 

[rob_just_rob]

The U.S. auto industry is drowning in its expenses, complacency, and sense of entitlement. Why should I force myself to buy your inferior product, domestics?

I haven't seen anyone blame the unions here. Chrysler, GM, and Ford are in deep trouble because they can't pay the pensions they owe their existing and soon-to-be retirees. Quality control has improved, but it's still far behind that of the imports, due in some part to the fact that it's hard to fire lazy or incompetent workers in a unionized environment.

I don't hate unions, and I don't think they're the root of all evil, unlike some. Take unions out of the historical picture, and we might all be living like characters in a Zola novel. But in many cases, the pendulum has swung too far in the favour of favour unionized workers. There's no way an autoworker should be earning $80,000/yr to do a job that I learned to do in the course of one summer job at an auto plant.

 

[sjprep06]

The only thing that american cars have to them is that they are cheaper to tune up than their Euro counter-parts. Foreign car also seem to be a bit more refined in handling (they have the roads and test tracks i.e. The Nurburgring in Germany to tweak the suspension to damn near perfect), generally more up-to-date in racing technology and better looking. The part that irritated a lot of people about them was that they had, and some still do have, a huge gas-guzzling engines that don't make a lot of horsepower. I mean the Buick LeSabre had about 3.6 or 3.8 liter V6 that only put down 205 hp brand new. Honda got almost 300hp from a 3.0 liter V6.

The only profit in pretty much the entire Ford empire came from Aston Martin which was sold to private ownership.

 

[Nrets]

Oh hell you the writing is on the wall. Personally, I think that any organization that gets too big begins to suffer from inefficiency do to all sorts of obligations to the growing numbers of associates. If you follow business news, it seems that Toyota is slowly falling into that. For whatever reason they are starting to slip in quality.
But brand image is huge and it will take a bakers dozen fiascos before people even begin to question whether Toyota is building the best cars in the world.
In the same vein it would take a bakers dozen triumphs for any of the American car companies to begin attracing new customers.
Come on Ford...paying the families of every casualty in cars that explode (Pintos) instead of recalling the car because it is cheaper, is not good business.

 

[viking1]

Hey, I am a pampered spoiled brat and I still miss my moms first put-put. That's what we used to call her 1974 baby blue Mercedes Benz 240D. It got awesome mileage, was not hard to start in the winter and cornered like it was on rails. I learned to drive on that car. It was a rude awakening when years later I took some local hairpin curves in an American made car.

Her 2nd diesel was a cream 1983 Mercedes Benz 300 Turbo D. Much better pick-up, but not made as well as the 1974. It had all sorts of stupid problems.

Diesel technology from Germany was very different from that of the domestics back at that time. Germany was WAY far ahead. What would you expect? The Germans invented the diesel, and Daimler Benz was one of the first cars.

The U.S. auto industry is drowning in its expenses, complacency, and sense of entitlement. Why should I force myself to buy your inferior product, domestics?

I haven't seen anyone blame the unions here. Chrysler, GM, and Ford are in deep trouble because they can't pay the pensions they owe their existing and soon-to-be retirees. Quality control has improved, but it's still far behind that of the imports, due in some part to the fact that it's hard to fire lazy or incompetent workers in a unionized environment.

I don't hate unions, and I don't think they're the root of all evil, unlike some. Take unions out of the historical picture, and we might all be living like characters in a Zola novel. But in many cases, the pendulum has swung too far in the favour of favour unionized workers. There's no way an autoworker should be earning $80,000/yr to do a job that I learned to do in the course of one summer job at an auto plant.

I don't hate unions either, but things are a bit out of control.

The decline of domestic autos is why I switched to Toyota. I'm very satisfied and have never looked back.

 

[sjprep06]

Oh hell you the writing is on the wall. Personally, I think that any organization that gets too big begins to suffer from inefficiency do to all sorts of obligations to the growing numbers of associates. If you follow business news, it seems that Toyota is slowly falling into that. For whatever reason they are starting to slip in quality.
But brand image is huge and it will take a bakers dozen fiascos before people even begin to question whether Toyota is building the best cars in the world.
In the same vein it would take a bakers dozen triumphs for any of the American car companies to begin attracing new customers.
Come on Ford...paying the families of every casualty in cars that explode (Pintos) instead of recalling the car because it is cheaper, is not good business.

Toyota may be slipping because they're trying to manufacture above their current capacity. I've even heard some reports of Honda also slipping in reliability while slowly but surely Ford was creeping up.

In response to your comment about 'obligations to the growing numbers of associates' that is true. Jaguar learned that quite a few times. Their supercar, the XJ220 was a fiscal failure because they listened to what everyone, from customers to shareholders, wanted instead of making a great supercar. Also, they're hampered by their own customer base. Their almost required to build cars for golfers and older people instead of making new and exciting things.

 

[jnp]

We own 5 Fords, and looovveeeee them. 300,000 miles on our Taurus, and never have had any problems with it. I don't see what all of the hype is over asian cars. If people actually took the time to look at the new Fords, Chevys, and Chryslers, they would see a huge improvment. American car companies are honestly now on par with Foreign competition, it's just that now people feel like Ford and Chevy had their chance and blew it. Which sucks for everyone. I love my Mustang, our 2 Taurus', F-150 and our 67 Fairlane. And our 1950 Studebaker, but that's a whole different ball game lol.

 

[viking1]

We own 5 Fords, and looovveeeee them. 300,000 miles on our Taurus, and never have had any problems with it. I don't see what all of the hype is over asian cars. If people actually took the time to look at the new Fords, Chevys, and Chryslers, they would see a huge improvment. American car companies are honestly now on par with Foreign competition, it's just that now people feel like Ford and Chevy had their chance and blew it. Which sucks for everyone. I love my Mustang, our 2 Taurus', F-150 and our 67 Fairlane. And our 1950 Studebaker, but that's a whole different ball game lol.

I disagree. I would give Ford the benefit of a doubt. They have done the most to improve their quality. Ford still has weakest V8 in a pickup.
I'll never own another Chrysler product. I've had enough of their junk.
I doubt I'll own another GM product. I worked on all that junk they built in the late 70's through the early 80's. Their junk diesels, the Citation and all it's clones, the "J" chassis junk, etc. They screwed the American public and their workers, all the while whining about foreign competition and the unions.

ALL Toyota engines have double overhead cam, four valves per cylinder, and variable valve timing. Some have variable intake manifold, and direct injection. Toyota also has "throttle by wire". This eliminates the idle air control, and cruise control motors. Simpler, and it works smoothly.
Spark plugs go down through the valve cover, and are super easy to get to. Axles, and auto transmissions have drain plugs, like they should.

A guy in my area drove a Toyota Corolla 500,000 miles. Never even changed the auto trans fluid. He was a courier for a hospital. A women who worked in the same office as my aunt has Camry (4cly) with 400,000 miles on it. Never had any repairs and it's still going.

My Toyota Tundra hasn't had a dozen recalls like my Dodge did. Doesn't have the loose wandering steering, brake pull, or poor shift quality, electrical problem, and the wiring and hoses don't look like a rat's nest.
It gets better mileage, and has more power, even though the Dodge's engine was 75 cu.in. bigger. Both trucks weigh about the same, have the same tire diameter, and the same axle ratio...

 

[JustAsking]

Good comments here, especially from naughty, viking1, and rob_just_rob come to mind.

When it comes to quality, Americans companies just don't get it. It is part cultural, and part because we have business schools. Unions are a wonderful thing, but they can be mismanaged as much as any business can. I blame the unions right along with senior auto company management for the horrible cars we put out historically.

I have been driving Toyota Corrollas and Geo Prizms (which is a rebranded Corrolla) for 20 years now. I consistently get a gazillion miles on them and then hand them down to my kids, who beat the crap out of them and put on another gazillion miles. Breakdowns are so rare on these machines that I don't even have a regular repair place where I take them. I go to Jiffy Lube every so often to get the oil changed and then just keep driving them forever.

Corrollas are like refrigerators. They have no soul, but they run forever. The only reason why you replace them is that they are so old you are embarrassed.

 

[Mr. Snakey]

Went to the Autoshow over Thanksgiving break and it was packed with tons of people. Suprisingly or maybe not so suprising the crowds were flocking mainly to foreign car manufacturers -Toyota, Honda, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Porsche.

Relatively very few people at Ford, GM or Chrysler. Ford was even giving $75 coupons to anyone who would test drive one of their cars, practically begging for business. Not many takers I noticed.

If the Autoshow is an accurate reflection of the car market these days I'd say the US Auto industry's days are numbered.

Ford is in bankruptcy, GM continues to loose market share and has been displaced by Toyota as the largest auto manufacturer in the world. Chrysler was bought by Daimler only to be spit back as a disasterous mistake. Toyota is now cutting into Ford's, and GM's very lucrative truck business with their Tundra trucks and on the road to dominating that market as well. I think many people are just fed up and less inclined to wave the American flag and buy domestic especially when those Tundras, Camrys and Hondas are made better and made in the US.

There are few gas sipping cars in the Big Three's line-up but many large gas guzzlers and SUV's. Who does the long term planning at these companies? From the same people that brought us planned obsolescence and using marketing as a band aid remedy for poorly made cars and playing catch up to the Japanese, I'm not so sure that they are just digging their own graves....again.

All the cars you speak of are made in the states. So its not all cut and dry. Ford and GM have had problems before and survived. They will survive this.

 

[2322]

All the cars you speak of are made in the states. So its not all cut and dry. Ford and GM have had problems before and survived. They will survive this.

Will they though? I imagine them broken-up and sold off. Every time they've had an omen they've disregarded it. Their small cars aren't even profitable! Why the hell even bother making them? They're in no position to carry loss leaders like that.

Since I've been alive the US has made the worst cars available. Never have they made the best of anything except trucks and now that the Japanese have figured out how to do big trucks and SUVs better than we have it's game over.

A certain segment of the population feels they need to buy American because it's patriotic or because of what they remember American cars were ages ago but that segment is dying off. In its place are people like me who would never even walk into an American manufacturer showroom unless it was to have a good laugh.

We can't build sports cars
We can't build economy cars
We can't build midsize cars
We can't build luxury cars
We can't build minivans
We can't build light trucks

In every segment there are manufacturers who produce better product for about the same or less money, quite a lot of it even made here! If Toyota, Honda, Subaru, and others can build high-quality cars on American soil then the Big 3 whiners have no reason to complain. All the finger-pointing is a joke because if the engineering was comparable or better to the Japanese then people just might buy the cars.

The writing was on the wall back when the first Volkswagens and Toyotas landed on our shores, when the first and then second gas crisis hit, when the Accord became the best-selling car in the US, when the Honda Odyssey stole Chrysler's minivan and made it even better, when young people were mocking Lincoln and Cadillac drivers as old farts, when the Toyota Tundra arrived, and when the Prius showed-up. 2008 will bring Smart Cars from Europe and the first Chinese manufacturer to sell in the US. Still, we have nothing to compete.

 

[B_New End]

not mine, but this reminded me of this funny story I read once





A Japanese company and an American company decided to have a boat race on the Schuylkill River. Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race. On the big day, the Japanese team won by a mile. The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat.


A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action. Their conclusion was the Japanese team had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 8 people steering and 1 person rowing. So American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion. They advised that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.


Not sure of how to utilize the information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the American's rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 3 area steering superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager. They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 1 person rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the "Rowing Team Quality First Program", with meetings, dinners and free pens for the rower. There was discussion of getting new oars, boats and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses.


The next year, the Japanese won by two miles. Humiliated, the American management laid off the rower for poor performance, halted development of a new boat, sold the oars, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses and the next year's racing team was outsourced to India.

 

[Dave NoCal]

New End, that seems about right. The U.S. brand makers got accustomed to more or less having the continent to themselves and, when the imports arrived, they tried to ignore them. They felt entitled to the market and thought they were immune to competition. It also seems to me that U.S. brand cars were never designed for export while many, if not most of our imports were.
Part of the responsibility also rests on the U.S. consumer people are still buying three ton SUVs to haul one lard-assed accountant to work
Dave

 

[dong20]

I read this at the time and managed to google it up. It's rather wistful and tugs on the nostalgia strings but there are some harsh truths in there too.

The denial and inability (or unwillingess) to see the bigger picture and the focus on individual models (which in effect adds up to the same thing) by some in this thread only serves to deny the inevtable; that the US automotive industry must innovate more radically and more aggressively if it's to compete in what is now a consumer led global market.

Those who use the 'but the playing field isn't level' argument have 'some' genuine grounds on which to base that argument, but not that many and I'd argue that such problems are largely of the industry's own making. At any event it's usually the tired refrain of those unwilling to accept that the industry is failing to compete not because the playing field isn't level but because in its current form it couldn't compete were it to be level. I'd say JA nailed that angle pretty well.

The British car industry went through a similar (de)evolution (into niche markets and mostly hosted assembly). It may sting but the truth is simple; today, in this aspect (making and selling reliable, high quality cars) I believ Asia is simply better than we are.

Oh yes, the article:

How the US Fell Out of Love With Its Cars PAUL HARRIS / The Observer (UK) 29jan2006

 

[ClaireTalon]

<.>
Ford is in bankruptcy, GM continues to loose market share and has been displaced by Toyota as the largest auto manufacturer in the world. Chrysler was bought by Daimler only to be spit back as a disasterous mistake. Toyota is now cutting into Ford's, and GM's very lucrative truck business with their Tundra trucks and on the road to dominating that market as well. I think many people are just fed up and less inclined to wave the American flag and buy domestic especially when those Tundras, Camrys and Hondas are made better and made in the US.

GM is meanwhile making more money in their banking section than they do by actually selling cars. Not surprising, since the difference between the actual production costs and a reasonable market prize is narrow. Also, GM has chose the road of badge engineering, which means that the car makers (badge owners) belonging to their group produce cars of other group members and then put the matching badge on. This goes much further than the common technology transfer within one group.

The US auto industry has had decades to improve, steamline and innovate. By and large, it hasn't.

<.>

Just look at the Chrysler 300C. Designed like 30 years of aerodynamic research and development had never happened, or like their designers and engineers had slept that time away.

Diesel technology from Germany was very different from that of the domestics back at that time. Germany was WAY far ahead. What would you expect? The Germans invented the diesel, and Daimler Benz was one of the first cars.
<.>

I find it rather interesting that Chrysler started an image campaign for their models, throwing their German associates (Official Chrysler site - Autos, Cars, Minivans, SUVs, Convertibles, Sedans, Crossovers - that link had been actual one year ago, I suppose it's turned off meanwhile) in the balance. Didn't save them, though.

 

[eaglespga88]

Its funny how much bashing ya'll have done of detroit cars. Read this months consumer reports magazine. Over the past 6 years, Fords vehicle reliability rating is higher than Toyota's. Honda is the only one better. The magazine even reports on how Toyota has been slipping recently, and the last couple years of camry models are shabby. Look nice, but under the fiberglass is some shoddy work. I dont know if any of ya'll have seen Ford's 08 lineup..but theres not much to complain about. The redesigned Focus is real nice and gets 35mpg. I hate to do this much talking about Ford, as I am a chevy owner (you hippies can bash all you want about SUV's, watch me give a shit, I LOVE my blazer) But Ford seems to be making the right changes finally, and its showing too. Im seeing more and more of them on the road daily it seems.

 

[SteveHd]

... The Chevy Chevette was a damned fine automobile.

But that wasn't a U.S. design. It was initially built overseas and sold in several countries for a number of years before being brought to USA. When GM urgently needed a quick replacement for the Vega/Monza/Astre mess, it was hastily brought to USA. They even imported the machining and stamping equipment. As I recall, that equipment came from Brazil.

Back to the U.S. auto business ...

I don't think it's as bad as Jason thinks, but it is ill. I think they can survive a few more decades but with gradually declining market share. They've been in-a-hole before and recovered. Sometimes, when things are dark, they make tough decisions that turn things around.

My first car, was a Vega. If I can forgive GM, anyone can.

Speaking of car shows, I also went to a car show this past weekend. But many of those cars had running boards, flared fenders, and large round headlights. :smile: And oddly there was gasp! a Vega! It had been converted to a street rod: large rear slicks and a big-block V8.