Is There a Social Need for Creativity?

jason_els

<img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi
Joined
Dec 16, 2004
Posts
10,228
Media
0
Likes
162
Points
193
Location
Warwick, NY, USA
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
-What are the conditions that need to be in place in order for creativity to develop and be sustained?

Acceptance or, at least, tolerance. Encouragement helps too.

-Is the society we live in the ideal system to perpetuate creativity?

Absolutely not. Society tolerates some creativity if that creativity can be used for commercial gain. I don't know a single parent who encourages their child to be an artist of any sort. Even if they are encouraging then there's always an admonition that children study something else, "to fall back on." Do parents say that to their kids who go through MBA programs? Do we see art of creative and high quality every day? No! American taste is awful and our education system has killed any incentive for kids to learn about the value of art and creativity. If you're creative then study engineering.

Since the 50s art in school has been seen as superfluous. It's nice for little kids because, as most educators see it, they can't learn anything more valuable at that age. What most people do not understand, because they've never had art education themselves, is that art, even art history, is ridiculously valuable in teaching people how to think. It takes great effort to discern what is being communicated by art and how what is communicated effects us and our society. Brains need to learn to discern, recognize, compare, and analyze abstraction; a high-order brain function, and art is the single greatest tool for teaching that ability. There is a reason that people who study art are broad-minded, attentive to detail, sensitive to nuance, and always aware of the context of communication. That reason is because art fosters that kind thinking ability.

As we exist in a capitalist society, our fortunes based upon our ability to earn money in a commercial-industrial-service economy, parents demand schools prepare their children to fit into that world. Art is not seen by parents as contributing to that goal. They want sports, math, and science. History, another exceptionally valuable course of study, is withering on the vine as well. Even English has become a red-headed step child and contemporary business correspondence shows it most painfully.

This is what happens when you have multiple generations living in a system that teaches, not to the test, but to the goal of profitable employment. They're not teaching kids to think independently and creatively, but to get a job.

Ages ago liberal arts were seen as the best way to create well-rounded people with multiple skill sets who, ultimately, were able to synthesize those skill sets in a sophisticated manner. This produced people with vision and intellectual curiosity. As we become more and more specialized, course of study is becoming narrower and narrower to satisfy the requirements of attaining a specialized skill. Until that changes then I don't see that anything will change.

Already in NYC there are several high schools devoted exclusively to certain subjects. They are exceptional schools by any measure, yet they're essentially taking an elementary school student and channeling that student into a specialized course of study that will not expose the student to a broader range of subjects, and thus ideas and modes of thinking. I think we'll be seeing more schools like this, high schools becoming universities, so long as the American economy requires highly specialized workers to stay competitive.

-When did you think the most creative periods of your life were and why?

A study that was recently published said that the early 20s are the most creative period in most people's lives and that's not surprising as it coincides with college and generally represents a period of life when people have the time to be creative. They're not worrying about mortgages, car payments, insurances, feeding a family, educating their kids. In my view, I think any period of life can be most creative if a person can find the time to do it. Picasso didn't blossom until his 30s and Matisse, already a great artist, went on to create an entirely new style in his 60s when arthritis prevented him from painting as he used to.

That said, my most creative periods are when I'm soaking in the bathtub reading, smoking, or eating ice cream. I don't know why, but all my best ideas come from soaking in the tub. Must be the Piscean temperament.

-How does an individual's creativity benefit society?

Creativity is essential in everything from engineering to architecture to medicine to business. If America is losing ground in all fields (and we are), then it's largely because our population is generally too ignorant to understand that many school subjects are less valuable for the information they give the student then in how the student learns to understand and analyze the subject itself. The value in art, almost always, isn't in the finished product, but in how it was conceived and executed. The value of learning history isn't in knowing that Jomo Kenyatta led the Mau Mau Rebellion but in evaluating all documented accounts to arrive at a conclusion of cause, events, and effects of what took place. This is what education is, not facts and figures, but learning to think!
 

bottombuddy

Experimental Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2007
Posts
469
Media
0
Likes
16
Points
238
Location
Dundee City (Scotland)
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
i love being creative.......i paint beautiful pictures......id love to do large male nudes in oils or acrylics and also have limited edition prints done,etc........but cant afford to give up the day job unfortunately......id be very sucessful but cant afford to break free from work meantime.......need to find a gallery owner or agent to support me iitially or even marry me...but we can dream can't we.
 

36DD

Experimental Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2006
Posts
1,766
Media
2
Likes
16
Points
183
Location
U.S.
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Female
I think society as a whole is responsible for squelching creativity, and often begins with the sensitive child being told to not be so sensitive! If I weren't the sensitive person I am, I wouldn't be a writer, a poet, an artist, or composer. I wouldn't have been the thoughtful and insightful mother I have been. I have been creative for as long as I have memories of my life, why should any sensitive person be ridiculed for it, or told to not be so sensitive? Maybe, just maybe, those who think we are too sensitive should try learning to be more sensitive, they might be amazed as to how much they can learn about themselves and others.
Our society doesn't reward those who are creative...scientists working on finding cures for diseases are not paid or respected as they should be, music and art programs are cut or financial help is drastically reduced. I put more money into the music programs for my kids than other parents with kids in sports did. The sports programs get bigger and bigger, where as the music programs move in the opposite direction and I think it is sad, especially when it is proven that children in music become better students, excel in math and foreign language. Young musicians also learn the importance of team work, mentorship and leadership. Our educational system needs a serious overhaul before it will ever see improved test scores.
 

DC_DEEP

Sexy Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2005
Posts
8,714
Media
0
Likes
93
Points
183
Sexuality
No Response
36DD, it's sometimes harder to see evidence of your points in larger school districts. In the smaller districts, the disparity becomes glaring.

I mentioned in a thread a year or so ago some of the things I experienced when teaching in a couple of very small school districts. These two neighboring districts hired me as the one "co-op" teacher - I worked a half-day in each district. Technically, I was employed by one district; they issued my paycheck, and the other district worked out a deal with my employer. It was a grueling work schedule. But the baffling part was that, between the two districts, they had one music teacher (me), two art teachers, and seven full-time coaches, 4 part-time coaches, and 4 coaching assistants.

A bit of insight into the priorities, eh?
 

Male Bonding etc

Experimental Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Posts
920
Media
0
Likes
17
Points
163
Location
Southwest USA
Sexuality
69% Straight, 31% Gay
Gender
Male
Perhaps the question, somewhat addressed here, about how the priorities got so skewed should be asked. A number of contributing factors have already been mentioned, but let me add two more.

Large schools with multiple classes where children are grouped by age are a factor that is too seldom recognized. Children need to be in environments where they have opportunities to interact with peers OUTSIDE their immediate developmental levels. Furthermore, they need to be KNOWN, not merely moved through the system.

Too many children are allowed, even encouraged, possibly forced to watch TV before their brains and neural pathways have developed properly. For that to happen as it should, their multiple senses need to be engaged and their various muscle/neural connections employed from the earliest ages. Children sitting in front of a television do not move much, do not imagine much, do not develop connections and abilities that make creativity and problem solving easier.

A number of thoughtful people have posted great suggestions here. Let me suggest something that gets too little play, but could also help:

Even before they enter the school system and certainly in their earliest school experiences, children should be exposed to (if not taught) one or more languages different from the one spoken at home. People who are bilingual tend to be more creative and better problem solvers. Children's facility with language acquisition, particularly second language acquisiton, decreases dramatically after age seven.

Music lessons can also be much like learning another language. Using other arts to communicate ideas, feelings, impressions may also engage similar mental connections and skills.

Thus, how we nurture creativity in our culture becomes a creative exercise for ourselves.
 

Male Bonding etc

Experimental Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Posts
920
Media
0
Likes
17
Points
163
Location
Southwest USA
Sexuality
69% Straight, 31% Gay
Gender
Male
More on the creative power of music...

If there is one art form that can reach across more boundaries and tap deeper into the brain than any other, I think it is music. Visual art may be a not terribly distant second. Five notes or a single chord can convey feelings and impact our mood, our energy, our memories, our heart rate... A whole song can take us out of where we are, open our eyes to new perspectives, enhance almost anything we do. A symphony or musical service can transport us to new levels of understanding, make us receptive to alternate philosophies, or confirmed in those we already hold.

Perhaps because we can so easily tune out the world with personal listening devices, we have further separated ourselves from each other and from creativity. Someone likes rap, rock, county, folk, classical or whatever and only listens to that on his iPod, and he gets stuck in a rut. We see someone with her earbuds in, and we are less likely to want to interrupt whatever she is listening to to interact with her.
 

SpeedoGuy

Sexy Member
Joined
May 18, 2004
Posts
4,166
Media
7
Likes
41
Points
258
Age
60
Location
Pacific Northwest, USA
Sexuality
99% Straight, 1% Gay
Gender
Male
Yes. Priorities indeed.

Athletics can be an important and even enjoyable school experience but the level of resources and attention devoted to supporting competetive sports, even at the local level, continues to dismay me. Worse, I almost always observed that a small group of athletically elite kids who get the bulk of attention from all those coaches and trainers. All the rest of the kids played a distant second fiddle when it came to physical education in public school.
 

Osiris

Experimental Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Posts
2,666
Media
0
Likes
13
Points
183
Location
Wherever the dolphins are going
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
I maintain that there is a desperate social need for the creative behavior of creative individuals.

Do we foster creativity in America?

There is a desperate need. Our society is dominated by X-Boxes and PCs. Brittany Spears is on a pedastal that Mozart dominated at one point. Rembrandt has been replaced by cartoonists. Kurosawa trumped by the "movie a minute" directors going for cash instead of substance.

I am proud to have an accomplished cellist under my roof. A budding actor as well. Who are these people you ask? My children. Yes I spent a fortune on special private lessons and instruments for them. They know the classics and masters and my hope is that will carry on with them to relate to another kid out there coming along.

As a society we are failing the arts. We need less NBC and more PBS. Less KIIS FM and more NPR.

I am 100% with you on this Earl.
 

Principessa

Expert Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Posts
18,660
Media
0
Likes
135
Points
193
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Female
When I went back to school at age 25 to complete my BA I decided I wanted to be an art teacher. My second choice was voice. :rolleyes: My mom a Kindergarten teacher flipped out and said, "Are you crazy? Why don't you ever listen to what I say?!? The first things cut from any school budget are always art and music." :mad: She was right; and I ended up doing a degree in art history with a minor in elementary education and certification. I went on to obtain a MAT in Museum Education.

While I have yet to be a full time classroom teacher, I did museum outreach for 4 years and taught all over the country. The state of school art and music programs is at best pathetic. For criminys sake, even Cuba treats their young artists better than we do! :mad:



36DD, it's sometimes harder to see evidence of your points in larger school districts. In the smaller districts, the disparity becomes glaring.

I mentioned in a thread a year or so ago some of the things I experienced when teaching in a couple of very small school districts. These two neighboring districts hired me as the one "co-op" teacher - I worked a half-day in each district. Technically, I was employed by one district; they issued my paycheck, and the other district worked out a deal with my employer. It was a grueling work schedule. But the baffling part was that, between the two districts, they had one music teacher (me), two art teachers, and seven full-time coaches, 4 part-time coaches, and 4 coaching assistants.

A bit of insight into the priorities, eh?
 

JustAsking

Sexy Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2004
Posts
3,217
Media
0
Likes
33
Points
268
Location
Ohio
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
...Absolutely not. Society tolerates some creativity if that creativity can be used for commercial gain. ...

...Creativity is essential in everything from engineering to architecture to medicine to business. If America is losing ground in all fields (and we are), then it's largely because our population is generally too ignorant to understand that many school subjects are less valuable for the information they give the student then in how the student learns to understand and analyze the subject itself. The value in art, almost always, isn't in the finished product, but in how it was conceived and executed. The value of learning history isn't in knowing that Jomo Kenyatta led the Mau Mau Rebellion but in evaluating all documented accounts to arrive at a conclusion of cause, events, and effects of what took place. This is what education is, not facts and figures, but learning to think!
This was an outstanding post, jason. Really insightful. I totally agree that most encouragement for creativity is aimed at areas that have commercial value.

Also, I agree that the public school system tends to teach facts rather than how to think, how to solve problems, etc. This leaves people with few mental resources on which to draw on for creativity.

On the other hand, I have been wondering for a while why we all are not using software created outside the USA. Being in the software business, its one area where it is obvious that for whatever stifling affect our school system has, we do seem to produce a lot of innovative software.

I am sure there are other areas where this is true, but this one stands out for me.

What do you think is behind that?
 

jason_els

<img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi
Joined
Dec 16, 2004
Posts
10,228
Media
0
Likes
162
Points
193
Location
Warwick, NY, USA
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
This was an outstanding post, jason. Really insightful. I totally agree that most encouragement for creativity is aimed at areas that have commercial value.

Also, I agree that the public school system tends to teach facts rather than how to think, how to solve problems, etc. This leaves people with few mental resources on which to draw on for creativity.

On the other hand, I have been wondering for a while why we all are not using software created outside the USA. Being in the software business, its one area where it is obvious that for whatever stifling affect our school system has, we do seem to produce a lot of innovative software.

I am sure there are other areas where this is true, but this one stands out for me.

What do you think is behind that?

I managed to engage the great JustAsking??!!! :eek: That's a first!

I am honored. That's sincere, not sarcastic.

The greatest reason for our software creativity lies in three things:

The United States has been at the forefront of hardware and software development since the creation of modern computers.

The United States commercial sector is the most sophisticated in the world and we're simply ahead of the curve in knowing what business solutions need to be developed to satisfy those needs.

There is also unique freedom in software engineering. Most software companies in the US are run by the geeks themselves. They don't care much if you arrive to work looking homeless so long as you crank out what's needed. Too, software development, while collaborative in strategy, is a singular activity. To write software one person sits at a screen and creates it. Now many people may be writing different parts of the software and need to write it in such a way to integrate with the other parts, but largely you're on your own. As the talent to do this is in demand, companies are willing to tolerate some quirks they might not let other employees get away with. It's more than frequent that marketing and upper management have NO idea just how any of this gets done and that added bit of mystery means they can't fiddle with the work as it progresses.

Americans do have one of the highest concentrations of personal computers in homes in the world. Kids have access to these computers and they speak English. The access and incentive is there. Bill Gates made being a geek fashionable so if parents see their kids intrigued by computers, the parents are thrilled an encourage it. Little Janey might just become the next Grace Hopper, or even better, the next Bill Gates!

Americans are also rule breakers. We don't particularly like hierarchy and we respect creativity when it's commercially viable (as in this case). It appears that software development thrives when the physical technology is bleeding edge, when there are local markets who need bleeding edge (what good is Windows Vista if your electricity only comes on a few hours each day?), English is spoken, and developers are left to be creative developers and not office bureaucrats.
 

JustAsking

Sexy Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2004
Posts
3,217
Media
0
Likes
33
Points
268
Location
Ohio
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
I managed to engage the great JustAsking??!!! :eek: That's a first!

I am honored. That's sincere, not sarcastic.

The greatest reason for our software creativity lies in three things:

The United States has been at the forefront of hardware and software development since the creation of modern computers.

The United States commercial sector is the most sophisticated in the world and we're simply ahead of the curve in knowing what business solutions need to be developed to satisfy those needs.

There is also unique freedom in software engineering. Most software companies in the US are run by the geeks themselves. They don't care much if you arrive to work looking homeless so long as you crank out what's needed. Too, software development, while collaborative in strategy, is a singular activity. To write software one person sits at a screen and creates it. Now many people may be writing different parts of the software and need to write it in such a way to integrate with the other parts, but largely you're on your own. As the talent to do this is in demand, companies are willing to tolerate some quirks they might not let other employees get away with. It's more than frequent that marketing and upper management have NO idea just how any of this gets done and that added bit of mystery means they can't fiddle with the work as it progresses.

Americans do have one of the highest concentrations of personal computers in homes in the world. Kids have access to these computers and they speak English. The access and incentive is there. Bill Gates made being a geek fashionable so if parents see their kids intrigued by computers, the parents are thrilled an encourage it. Little Janey might just become the next Grace Hopper, or even better, the next Bill Gates!

Americans are also rule breakers. We don't particularly like hierarchy and we respect creativity when it's commercially viable (as in this case). It appears that software development thrives when the physical technology is bleeding edge, when there are local markets who need bleeding edge (what good is Windows Vista if your electricity only comes on a few hours each day?), English is spoken, and developers are left to be creative developers and not office bureaucrats.
Jason,
Nay nay. I am a big fan of yours. I always read your postings. We haven't engaged because I am pretty economical in my postings. I have been working on getting a business off the ground, and I try not to get too engaged in any conversations. However, I take breaks, read the etc etc thread, and sometimes get hooked. It's usually junk science (or snoozan) that gets me in.

In this case you touched on something else close to home. I have been doing and managing software development for 30 years now. From that experience I have to say that you are right on with your assessment. I might add that most good software comes from collaborating teams these days. However, you are still correct. If they are not software developers themselves, management does view the developers as highly creative geeks. Software developers have become modern day folk heroes so most companies allow all kinds of oddball behaviors.

I think there is something more fundamental, though, and you touched on it. There is something in the American psyche that loves the individual and loves to be an individual. So its not a real stretch for any halfway intelligent managment team to promote the creative environment that allows for frequent collaboration puncuated by deep solitary focus.

I think software developers have replaced the scientists of the 60s as cultural heroes.

Finally, I was in Toronto a month ago and happened to strike up a conversation with a guy who was a Canadian investment banker. We were discussing the differences between Canada and the USA in terms of innovation. I asked him why, besides Cognos, were there no well known Canadian software companies. He figured it was the vigorous and fertile, libertarian US business environment that makes all the difference in how many companies get started and manage to survive.

The US hi-tech business environment is like one big Andy Hardy movie. At any moment someone is saying, "Hey, let's start a company and make X!" And they go ahead and give it a try.

To prove your point, the first thing we secured on moving into our first development office a few months ago was the coffee grinder, the RO water filter, and the expresso maker. Then we moved on to the network, the development environment, and then the foosball table in that order.
 

earllogjam

Expert Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2006
Posts
4,917
Media
0
Likes
179
Points
193
Sexuality
No Response
Jason,

I think there is something more fundamental, though, and you touched on it. There is something in the American psyche that loves the individual and loves to be an individual. So its not a real stretch for any halfway intelligent managment team to promote the creative environment that allows for frequent collaboration puncuated by deep solitary focus.

I think software developers have replaced the scientists of the 60s as cultural heroes.

Most software enginieering companies provide private offices for each engineer - a kind of hermit cell in which they can work uninterruped. They go to great lengths making these spaces as corporate and comfortable as possible. But they end up looking like a dorm room after a while.

To prove your point, the first thing we secured on moving into our first development office a few months ago was the coffee grinder, the RO water filter, and the expresso maker. Then we moved on to the network, the development environment, and then the foosball table in that order.

I think the most unusual thing that has been placed in one tech companies I know is a spiral slide that went from floor to floor and an isolation tank. The large campuses like Oracle and Google have more of a resort atmosphere than corporate offices - with their own gourmet canteens, fitness and yoga studios, pools, and exercise paths. Tough life huh?
 

JustAsking

Sexy Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2004
Posts
3,217
Media
0
Likes
33
Points
268
Location
Ohio
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Most software enginieering companies provide private offices for each engineer - a kind of hermit cell in which they can work uninterruped. They go to great lengths making these spaces as corporate and comfortable as possible. But they end up looking like a dorm room after a while.



I think the most unusual thing that has been placed in one tech companies I know is a spiral slide that went from floor to floor and an isolation tank. The large campuses like Oracle and Google have more of a resort atmosphere than corporate offices - with their own gourmet canteens, fitness and yoga studios, pools, and exercise paths. Tough life huh?
Spiral slide, eh? I need to work on that.