Is This Religious Discrimination

[Freddie53]

Right. We're supposed to have freedom Of and FROM religion, but just try getting free FROM it. No, it's only The Land of the Free if you're a Christian.

Jana, you are absolutely correct. However, in an attempt to keep teachers from slanting the presentations of religions. As in "We believe that Jesus is God. The Muslims and Jews do not." That is favoring a religion. We sometimes go overboard to keep that from happening. This may have happened in this case.

All that does is flame the "fundies" You saw the point of the article true or not. The schools may display a menorah, but not the nativity scene. Talk about putting gasoline on the fire.

And the agenda of the fundies is to make Christianity the favored religion. Most will admit it. If that happens, it will be the most tragic thing to happen to Christianity. There is no better way to corrupt a religion than to make it a state relgion. And there is no better way to weaken a religion than make it a state religion which usually over time reduces the number of true followers.

I predict that if the "fundies" stay in power long enough to completely control most of the state governments and all three branches of the federal government, that Christianity will be become "de facto or de jure" state religion of America. And furthermore, the mainline Christian denominations will become the most persecuted of all faiths by this new dominence of the "fundie" Christian right. One definition of a Christian is that a person that follows the teachings of Jesus is a Christian without the belief that he was define. That definition of a Christian will of course be banned under the "fundies."

The process of making Christianity the state religion will happen through a series of Supreme Court decisions or possibly a new amendment to the U.S. Consitution.

 

[B_IanTheTall]

If the school didn't bad displaying the Cross, then I'm fine with banning the nativity. My reasoning for this is that the Menorah and the Star and Crescent are symbols like the Cross, since the nativity is a scene and not a symbol it diminishes the other two symbols, which in my opinion should not occur in a public school. In a public school the major religions should be treated equal or all should be banned.

I'd like to point out that this means that a hindu symbol should also be placed there. Buddhism isn't a religion but should not be overlooked or minimized either.

 

[CUBE]

.........

 

[Ryan]

The word "Christmas" is technically a Catholic Church word. It comes from the Mass of Christ which is what Catholic celebrate on Dec. 25th. It is also referred to as the Mass of Light. The official name of the celebration is the Nativity of the Lord. Yes, it ended up on the 25th but only after the revision of the calendar. And the date was picked by applying a scriptural reference to a solstice event. John the Baptist, "I must decrease while he increases". The daylight decreases one minute a day from the summer solstice to the winter equniox when it begins to increase by one minute a day. The church celebrates the birth of John the Baptist on June 25th - from the scripture passage that John's mother was in her sixth month when the angel visited Mary. From Jesus' saying, "I am the light of the world" the church, (the church calendar year is very much tied to the natural cycle of seasons) put the Mass of Christ on this day as the light begins to increase - a light shining in darkness and all that. So, as a Catholic I don't care what the holiday season is called - we will continue to celebrate the Mass of Christ on Dec. 25th. Do I believe all of this - some of it. Do I have problems with the Catholic Church - some of it. Do I believe that Jesus was a pretty cool dude and offered a good way of living even if only from a humanitarian perspective - absolutely!

 

[Freddie53]

SO RIGHT! It is amazing the element of the Christian movement that turns their head away from their own history...This might be said of many groups.

I teach and have a birch tree in my classroom. I always have lights on it. Each month I change the decor. December does look more decorated of course. I put snowmen on it and such but certainly no crosses or angels or etc. More importantly I leave off the start top. The library puts up a tree on this month only ..and only has one decoration...a star on the top. I see the two trees as very different. Mine is just about color...and I always talk about this to my students. They know I like the shiny stuff. The library one I don't discuss but I think it is a flat out Christian symbol.

Yes, I am a strong believer in seperation of church and state. I am also human and although people love to talk about how teachers should be perfect...we are the same flawed people of society. Anyway, you can't believe the people on our staff that daily undermine other religions and actually only support Christianity in a very overt way...like reading the bible to themselves in class durring a silent reading period. I am all for talking about/explaining all religions in education when grade appropriate...you just have to give all the players equal time.

Man I am all over the place here..I'll quit now

You have a point about the tree. Except for the angel on the top, there is very little reliigous ornaments put on most Christmas tres. We have to remember that Christmas is both a religious and secular holiday. Halloween al;so is a word derived from both pagan and Christian roots. Most people don't know that.

Our church puts in the sanctuary a CHRISTMON tree. (Chrsit amd monograms).
It is a religious tree. Many churches put a Christmon tree in their sanctuary. Nothing but Christian symbols is put on the tree and either there0 are no lights or the lights are all white or clear.. No colored lights. It is very different from a secualr Christmas tree.

I am opposed to changing the name, unless we change the name for all the celebrations of other religioms as well.

Teachers are not supposed to push their religion in school. Most of these Christians who do that, would go ape if Muslim were hired and he started pushing the Islam religion upon the students. There would be hell to pay I am sure.

To many teachers fall in one of these camps: the ones who want to push Christianity and convert the students and the other group who want to talk about every religion except Christianity and just ignore that religion.

It is sad. Where is the middle group?: The one that presents all religions on an equal footing and makes no negative statements about any of them and only points out the differences.

 

[B_Stronzo]

Do I have problems with the Catholic Church - some of it. Do I believe that Jesus was a pretty cool dude and offered a good way of living even if only from a humanitarian perspective - absolutely!

Ryan?

Would you tell them to scrap that shit in Leviticus about homos? It's fucking up people's minds. Thanks.

I'd do it myself but I jumped the Christian ship long ago. They're slaves to ritual and dogma far as I can tell...just doesn't promote the growth of the human spirit in my opinon.

 

[Ryan]

I'll take care of it.

 

[B_Stronzo]

Let me know when you're done. I'd like to ride on the first float at the parade.

 

[Freddie53]

Ryan?

Would you tell them to scrap that shit in Leviticus about homos? It's fucking up people's minds. Thanks.

I'd do it myself but I jumped the Christian ship long ago. They're slaves to ritual and dogma far as I can tell...just doesn't promote the growth of the human spirit in my opinon.

Some Christian groups have already accepted gays. The Episcopol Church has a Bishop who is in a committed relationship with another gay. I don't believe that passage of Scripture is applicable today. It is my understanding that the problem was the that the male prostittues were trying to "practice" as part of the worship service and God did not like that.

Gays are accepted as part of society and church. The fundies of course don't accept gays, but then no one is good enough for them.

 

[Dr Rock]

Some Christian groups have already accepted gays.

i'm sure you'll appreciate that it's difficult to think of 2,000 years in terms of "already."

 

[B_Stronzo]

Some Christian groups have already accepted gays. The Episcopol Church has a Bishop who is in a committed relationship with another gay. I don't believe that passage of Scripture is applicable today. It is my understanding that the problem was the that the male prostittues were trying to "practice" as part of the worship service and God did not like that.

Gays are accepted as part of society and church. The fundies of course don't accept gays, but then no one is good enough for them.

Hi Freddie. Yes, I was raised an Episcopalian and I'm more than a little proud of the stance my fellow Episcopalians have taken on the menacing variety of rampant absolutist "christianity" on the rise in the country.

However, so many have thrown those few passages in the Bible at me that condemn what I innately am that I've, as I said, jumped ship on Chrisitianity. In the grand scheme of things I was simply enjoying the ritual. The Episcopal Church (or the Church of England) is "Roman Catholic Lite" as they say and a wet dream to the drama queens among us. It's got all the pagentry of a Broadway show complete with the musical score and the costumes.

I realized, at one point, I was going for the theatrics.

I suspect, if I were to choose to go back to any kind of religious service, I would attend the Unitarian Church. They're theologians more than religionists.

Incidentally the appointment of females to priesthood and the present stance of the Episcopal Church on gay clergy has caused a monstrous schism in their ranks. I guess I'm simply tired of everyone so bloody interested in what we do in our bedrooms.

In the Italian?? "BASTA!!!"

 

[DadsAreUs]

There is little that I've thought of writing that hasn't already been posted by someone in this thread. I have a couple of things to add, which may or may not be constructive.

One, schools are permitted, apparently, to display symbols associated with religious holidays as long as those symbols have some sort of secular nature to them. I am not really sure what this means but some discretion must be left up to the school administration to determine which sympbols are and aren't allowed. Personally, I think a nativity scene is stepping over the line. But if all religions of the student body are fairly represented then it would seem the school is not discriminating.

Two, Christians should take a deep breath and stop worrying about whether or not they are being discriminated against. They walk all over every other system of belief, religious or not, in this country and it will be a long, long, long fucking time and an awful lot would have to change before they are in any any danger of oppressed in the USA. They should have a little bit of sensitivity to the feelings of minority belief systems. All they have to do is imagine how they feel at stories like the one that started this thread and multiply that feeling by 100.

 

[B_HappyHammer1977]

Please excuse me, as I haven't read the whole thread, or indeed the whole of the original report. But this 'Discrimination' is nothing more than ignorance. I'm not sure how well read the creators of this nativity were, but maybe, just maybe, they could have been trying to be cleaver (sic).
Sure, the nativity is all about the birth of Jesus, but in the multi-cultural world we live in now it's about time someone stood up and said the 'truth' about Christianity / Judaism / Islam - They're all the same faith!

The only one that recognises both the others is Islam. It's no wonder it's the fastest growing religion in the world.

All three religions are praising the same 'God'. Christianity and Islam are essentially cults created (so it's written) by Jesus and Mohammed directly from Judaism.

Basically, if you want to be a pureist with your monotheist god - go Jewish! The others are just an imitation!!!!

 

[Freddie53]

Please excuse me, as I haven't read the whole thread, or indeed the whole of the original report. But this 'Discrimination' is nothing more than ignorance. I'm not sure how well read the creators of this nativity were, but maybe, just maybe, they could have been trying to be cleaver (sic).
Sure, the nativity is all about the birth of Jesus, but in the multi-cultural world we live in now it's about time someone stood up and said the 'truth' about Christianity / Judaism / Islam - They're all the same faith!

The only one that recognises both the others is Islam. It's no wonder it's the fastest growing religion in the world.

All three religions are praising the same 'God'. Christianity and Islam are essentially cults created (so it's written) by Jesus and Mohammed directly from Judaism.

Basically, if you want to be a pureist with your monotheist god - go Jewish! The others are just an imitation!!!!

Actually, no. The Samarians were Hebrews as well as Jews. There were 12 tribes of Hebrews originally. They split up somewhre around 700BC. The Samarians only use the first five books of the Old Testament and it is called the Torah. There are less than 10,000 left. But they still do the sacrifice of a un blemished Lamb which the Jews gave up centuries ago.

The moderate Muslims will say that Jews and Christians will also go to heaven. The radical ones say no. Islam has the same problem as Christianity. There are many different sects.

But you are correct in that all three religions believe that they are worshipping the God that Abraham worshipped.

Some Christians believe that the Jews are the chosen people and if they follow the Old Testament they will go to heaven. Other Christians think that Jews are headed to hell in a hand basket.

All we can doin school is teaach a little about each religion in a neutral setting with no favortism shown.

With Christmas being by far the most popular holiday we have in the U.S., it would be discrimination to not even allow teachers to mention that this is also the day that many Christians celebrate Jesus's birthday. The Orthodox Christians celebrate Jesus's birth on January 6

I have no problem telling the students of when other religions celebrate either the founding of the religoin or the birth of the founder of that religion.

We should be making our students knowledable about ALL cultures i\in as much a neutral setting as possible.

Of course, if a culture or society practiced things that are against the law here in the US certainly that could be pointed out. The ancient Aztics killed a prisoner and sacrificed his dead heart on the altar. We would certainly tell the students that, no, that religous practice is illegal in the United states.

Yes, I told my students the beliefs and the culture of the Axtecs. In high school history we tell about the Inqusition and how the " established church" at that time gave capital punishment to nonbelievers or to those Christians who had different beliefs from the "established Church." That is history. It reflect horribly on Christianity. But it happened. Today the "established churches" in European countries have renounced such barbartic practices and freedom of religion is a right enjoyed in all Europan nations. Even Muslim Turkey allows freedom of religion.

We tell them the good things and we also must tell the the bad things as well.

To not do so is to present a distorted picture of history.

 

[madame_zora]

I am not a theologian by a long shot, but I AM clever enough to have gotten this one thing from the Bible- The New Testament renders the Old Testament impotent as anything other than the history of how it was back then. The ENTIRE PURPOSE of Jesus being here was supposedly to tell us that the "old law" was now to be replaced with a new law- the law of Love. Read it and weep fellas. We've been commanded to love our brothers as ourselves, it's the only Law Jesus gave.:biggrin1:
I like that guy, he's pretty cool.

Now, you can choose to dismiss this, but not if you intend to call yourself a "Christian" and thereby use his namesake to identify yourself.

Leviticus is thereby not revoked, but made less important than Love by the very existance of Jesus. Anyone claiming to hate fags is NOT a Christian.

 

[D_Kay_Sarah_Sarah]

Immigrants, foreigners, visitors (whatever you want to call them) really should respect the beliefs and traditions of the countries they choose to live in.

Christmas is a tradition that has been happening for thousands of years and is it right for thousands of people to miss out on a part of their culture because a minority dosent follow it?

 

[seacat]

How about letting people practise their religion however they like, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else?

 

[JustAsking]

I am not a theologian by a long shot, but I AM clever enough to have gotten this one thing from the Bible- The New Testament renders the Old Testament impotent as anything other than the history of how it was back then. The ENTIRE PURPOSE of Jesus being here was supposedly to tell us that the "old law" was now to be replaced with a new law- the law of Love. Read it and weep fellas. We've been commanded to love our brothers as ourselves, it's the only Law Jesus gave.:biggrin1:
I like that guy, he's pretty cool.

Now, you can choose to dismiss this, but not if you intend to call yourself a "Christian" and thereby use his namesake to identify yourself.

Leviticus is thereby not revoked, but made less important than Love by the very existance of Jesus. Anyone claiming to hate fags is NOT a Christian.

Yes, precisely.

 

[B_HungSpermBoy]

How about letting people practise their religion however they like, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else?

I feel this way too but I'm afraid a lot of christians want to impose their brand of religion on the rest of us. I don't think they have a very good track record.