Israel attack on Gaza: Fragile peace shattered again

D_Gunther Snotpole

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Yes, they were definitely ethnically distinct, just like the Hebrews were distinct from the Egyptians were distinct from the Syrians were distinct from Arabians and so on. They all had different traditions, religions, languages, etcetera.
In the Roman Era there were barely any Arabs in Palestine, but there were lots of Palestinians. I don't really want to hijack the thread, but what people now refer to as Arab is mainly defined by language, not ethnicity. The language was spread as Islam became the predominate religion of the region, but most of the people have no Arab blood at all. To make it as concise as possible: the people from the Arabian Peninsula are ethnic Arabs, everyone else just speaks Arabic.

After centuries ... millennia, really ... of movement of peoples in and out of the Holy Land, do you really think that what we now call 'Palestinians' are different in blood from their Jordanian or Syrian or Saudi Arabian brothers?
And, putting language aside for the moment, are they greatly difference in terms of what we broadly call 'cultural factors'?
Perhaps you do and perhaps you can make a case.
I don't claim to know.
(I do, however, admit some doubt. My understanding is that a large proportion of them arrived in what is now Israel only in the last 150 years or so.)
But I'd love to have you elaborate further on this topic, Maia.
 

Elmer Gantry

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But Rubi, every time they have put their weapons down in the past, the Israeli's get their bull dozers out again and make another "settlement".

Then steadfastly stand beside these settlements with tanks and planes. When The Hague or the UN rules against them, they ignore it.
 

D_Rock_ N_Hardon

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Such a sad story. I feel very much for the civilian Palestinians but equally for the innocent Israelis. It's too simple to say that the solution is obvious - it is not, but I believe the Israeli onslaught to be excessive.

Why has the coin not dropped (throughout the world) that aggressive force can never be the answer....
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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But Rubi, every time they have put their weapons down in the past, the Israeli's get their bull dozers out again and make another "settlement".

Then steadfastly stand beside these settlements with tanks and planes. When The Hague or the UN rules against them, they ignore it.

The Israelis moved definitively out of Gaza some time ago, and do not propose to reoccupy the strip.
True, the Israelis have been holding on to a number of settlements in the West Bank, but they are offering compensatory land to the West Bankers, who seem inclined to accept the offer happily.

Until very recently, there was a truce between Hamas and the Israelis.
Someone ended it.
Who?
Hamas, of course ... and many Arab states and the PA leadership deplored this action.
I don't want to sound insensitive.
The suffering of the Gazans at these moments is immense.
But their own leadership, again and again, creates these situations.
 

dong20

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The Israelis moved definitively out of Gaza some time ago, and do not propose to reoccupy the strip.
True, the Israelis have been holding on to a number of settlements in the West Bank, but they are offering compensatory land to the West Bankers, who seem inclined to accept the offer happily.

Yes ... but Chuck's point is a valid one; Israel stated that it was planning to expand its Pisgat Zeev settlement by 600 units as recently as March 2008. This in addition to an expansion of 300 units in Har Homa (near Bethlehem) in 2007. Yes, I am aware of the 'possible' future ownership of the Pisgat Zeev homes, but ...

Both actions were 'condemned' by the US and EU, but this criticism fell on deaf ears. Israel isn't an innocent party here.

Until very recently, there was a truce between Hamas and the Israelis.
Someone ended it.
Who?
Hamas, of course ... and many Arab states and the PA leadership deplored this action.
I don't want to sound insensitive.
The suffering of the Gazans at these moments is immense.
But their own leadership, again and again, creates these situations.

You're not being insentive, neither I am (I hope!). Merely trying to be as objective as possible. Both sides are to blame, and both sides have behaved apallingly. The simple reality is that Israel has the power, and backing to get more of its own way, more of the time. That situation seems unlikely to change anytime soon.
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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Some rubbish grenade attacks do not threaten the State of Israel in any way.

I wonder if you do the Qassam rocket justice by comparing it with a grenade.
It weights 200 pounds and carries 22 pounds of explosives and descends at 600 feet per second. The current model, the Qassam 3, can deliver explosives up to eight miles.
I would somehow rather prefer to face a grenade.
The Gazans have fired more than 3,000 of them at Israeli towns.
More than 15 people have been killed.
Two days ago, Hamas fired off 130 of them.
Roughly 300 have been fired off since Hamas ended the truce.
Hamas is now moving on to more potent missiles, I might add, now occasionally using the Grad missile, with twice the range.
And you can be sure that everything will be ratcheted up as better technology falls into their hands.
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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The Israelis moved definitively out of Gaza some time ago, and do not propose to reoccupy the strip.
True, the Israelis have been holding on to a number of settlements in the West Bank, but they are offering compensatory land to the West Bankers, who seem inclined to accept the offer happily.

Yes ... but Chuck's point is a valid one; Israel stated that it was planning to expand its Pisgat Zeev settlement by 600 units as recently as March 2008. This in addition to an expansion of 300 units in Har Homa (near Bethlehem) in 2007. Yes, I am aware of the 'possible' future ownership of the Pisgat Zeev homes, but ...

Well, you're talking Jerusalem and the West Bank.
My comment applied only to Gaza.
 

Elmer Gantry

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Really?!?

Wouldn't have had anything to do with renewed calls from the UN to indict Israeli officials for crimes against humanity as of early December 2008?
Gaza blockade a siege in full fury: UN rapporteur - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

And then the wonderful blockade they threw up, while they were technically under truce with Hamas, that caused food and energy shortages just as winter is setting in. Which was caused by Israeli protestors in October.
Israeli protesters force Gaza crossing to close - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

And the general economic terrorism which punctuates any "peaceful" period and strangely has nothing to do with the military and is usually perpetrated by Israeli civilians.
Jewish settlers disrupt Palestinian olive harvest - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

And this is just the microcosm of the last couple of months. If treated in isolation, this can be tracked to the events of late September/October (harvest time) and the origin was not from the popular media's usual suspects.

But Hamas was to blame, wasn't it Rubi?
 

Elmer Gantry

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I wonder if you do the Qassam rocket justice by comparing it with a grenade.
It weights 200 pounds and carries 22 pounds of explosives and descends at 600 feet per second. The current model, the Qassam 3, can deliver explosives up to eight miles.
I would somehow rather prefer to face a grenade.
The Gazans have fired more than 3,000 of them at Israeli towns.
More than 15 people have been killed.
Two days ago, Hamas fired off 130 of them.
Roughly 300 have been fired off since Hamas ended the truce.
Hamas is now moving on to more potent missiles, I might add, now occasionally using the Grad missile, with twice the range.
And you can be sure that everything will be ratcheted up as better technology falls into their hands.

And is second only to the Scud missile as being the worlds worst ballistic missile design ever.

How many were killed by the 300 rockets fired into Israeli territory lately?

One. And he was an Arab!

How many has the IDF's air force killed in the last three days?

Over 310 so far at last count.

Sounds pretty fair, huh?
 
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dong20

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And is second only to the Scud missile as being the worlds worst ballistic missile design ever.

How many were killed by the 300 rockets fired into Israeli territory lately?

One. And he was an Arab!

How many has the IDF's air force killed in the last three days?

Over 310 so far at last count.

Sounds pretty fair, huh?

Actually, four Israelis have been killed in such attacks since Saturday - an Israeli woman was killed today.

I agree the numbers are grossly disproportionate, but then I don't believe anyone said (or even suggested) the conflict was 'fair' or 'balanced'.
 

Elmer Gantry

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Drifterwood called into account the gross imbalance of military force being used which was defended by Rubi as having more impact than DW initially stated.

Or words to that effect.
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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But Hamas was to blame, wasn't it Rubi?

Yes, ultimately.
The current Israeli military action against Hamas goes far beyond what you've mentioned.
But they're all part of the same thing ... a response by a militarily, economically, and technologically superior force against an opposing force that wants to see the superior force's extinction.
One can't play fair in such situations.
And one has the right to self defence.
Proportionality, in the nature of things, won't much enter the picture.
The West Bankers are being treated far more leniently. And for good reason.
If the Gazans, and particularly Hamas, gave up their hope to drive the Jews into the sea, the problem would end.
One can understand their rage, but not the self-destructive policies they have followed for six decades now.
The Syrians are seeking peace. The Jordanians and the Egyptians have already found peace with Israel. Other Arab nations are following suit. The West Bankers, brothers of the Gazans, are doing the intelligent thing.
Those under Hamas? They're using slingshots, effectively, on forces that carry cudgels.
Doesn't work.

And is second only to the Scud missile as being the worlds worst ballistic missile design ever.
How many were killed by the 300 rockets fired into Israeli territory lately?
One. And he was an Arab!
How many has the IDF's air force killed in the last three days?
Over 310 so far at last count.
Sounds pretty fair, huh?

Three thousand missiles over the course of several years can very greatly compromise the quality of life of those who live within the radius of delivery.
Do that long enough and you will get a reaction.
A fair reaction? One could debate that; perhaps not, Chuck.
But certainly understandable.
 

dong20

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Drifterwood called into account the gross imbalance of military force being used which was defended by Rubi as having more impact than DW initially stated.

Or words to that effect.

I'm not sure to which post you refer ... this one? If so Rubi agreed that the force being used by Israel was disproportionate.

Alternatively I simply misunderstood what you just wrote, in which case could you cite the example to which you refer?
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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I'm not sure to which post you refer ... this one? If so Rubi agreed that the force being used by Israel was disproportionate.

Alternatively I simply misunderstood what you just wrote, in which case could you cite the example to which you refer?

I don't think Chuck quite said what he meant to say.
I was arguing that the missiles that Hamas has been firing into Israel are more potent than the mere grenades that drifter was making them out to be.
And I suppose that does suggest some lessening of the disproportionality of the engagement.
Chuck presumably feels that this lessening is very trivial.
And it probably is.
Nonetheless, as a clarification, my post was worthwhile, I feel.
 

Calboner

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And is second only to the Scud missile as being the worlds worst ballistic missile design ever.

How many were killed by the 300 rockets fired into Israeli territory lately?

One. And he was an Arab!

How many has the IDF's air force killed in the last three days?

Over 310 so far at last count.

Sounds pretty fair, huh?
So would it be more "fair" if, instead of using an abundance of very destructive and for the most part precisely targeted weaponry to attack Hamas and its facilities, Israel just lobbed a few highly uncontrolled rockets or mortar rounds into the Gaza Strip at random, most likely killing only non-combatants and achieving no military objective?
 

dong20

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I don't think Chuck quite said what he meant to say.
I was arguing that the missiles that Hamas has been firing into Israel are more potent than the mere grenades that drifter was making them out to be.
And I suppose that does suggest some lessening of the disproportionality of the engagement.
Chuck presumably feels that this lessening is very trivial.
And it probably is.
Nonetheless, as a clarification, my post was worthwhile, I feel.

It's clearly later than I thought ... :biggrin1:
 

Maia

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After centuries ... millennia, really ... of movement of peoples in and out of the Holy Land, do you really think that what we now call 'Palestinians' are different in blood from their Jordanian or Syrian or Saudi Arabian brothers?
And, putting language aside for the moment, are they greatly difference in terms of what we broadly call 'cultural factors'?
Perhaps you do and perhaps you can make a case.
I don't claim to know.
(I do, however, admit some doubt. My understanding is that a large proportion of them arrived in what is now Israel only in the last 150 years or so.)
But I'd love to have you elaborate further on this topic, Maia.
I fear that the anthropology is going to hijack the thread, so I will keep this concise as possible, perhaps we can continue the exchange in PM or a different thread.
Essentially, yes, they are different in blood. There have of course been varying degrees of mingling, but that goes for all of the Mediterranean. Greeks and Egyptians have mingled for far longer than Arabs and Palestinians, but the general populations can still be distinguished. Gulf Arabs and Palestinians can generally also be distinguished.
Aside from that, I think I have lost the point of trying to equate Palestinian as being the same as their Arab neighbours, given that 50% of Israelis are predominantly of European ancestry. Anyway, it is late here in the Eastern Mediterranean and I am losing train of thought... I need sleep... it's cold, my man is cozy, goodnight:biggrin1:
 

D_Bob_Crotchitch

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You can sit here and debate this until the end of time but it isn't going to change. The neighboring nations deny the right of the nation of Israel to exist. Religiously, they hate the jews and consider them infidels. At one point in time, Israel offered the PLO over 90% of what it requested, and the PLO would not accept the agreement. I seriously doubt there will ever be a man brokered peace in the region. These people have been bitter enemies for thousands of years. Not to mention the fact that a mosque was intentionally built on the foundation of the temple. The people are cousins. The children of the child born from the illegitimate are at war with the children from the child recognized as the heir. There always seems to be hell in these situations.
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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You can sit here and debate this until the end of time but it isn't going to change. The neighboring nations deny the right of the nation of Israel to exist. Religiously, they hate the jews and consider them infidels.

As they do Christians, hootie.
But Egypt and Jordan, two neighboring nations, have accepted Israel's right to exist.
Syria seems in process of doing the same.
Other Arab nations, without much fanfare, are expressing willingness to accept the obvious fact that Israel does exist and is not going to be displaced.