Israel attack on Gaza: Fragile peace shattered again

Notaguru2

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Notice how the US is on the side of Israel, and Europe sympathizes with Hamas. It's no wonder we fight terror by ourselves... everyone else is nothing but terror-loving bitches.
 
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Jason

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You can sit here and debate this until the end of time but it isn't going to change. The neighboring nations deny the right of the nation of Israel to exist. Religiously, they hate the jews and consider them infidels. At one point in time, Israel offered the PLO over 90% of what it requested, and the PLO would not accept the agreement. I seriously doubt there will ever be a man brokered peace in the region. These people have been bitter enemies for thousands of years. Not to mention the fact that a mosque was intentionally built on the foundation of the temple. The people are cousins. The children of the child born from the illegitimate are at war with the children from the child recognized as the heir. There always seems to be hell in these situations.

This is a very bleak view.

The West Bank demonstrates a way forward, which has lots of promise. The tragedy is that Hamas has come to power in Gaza. The future doesn't have to be bleak, and the people of Gaza collectively do have the ability to bring about an improvement in their lives by putting in power a non-terrorist government.

What I struggle to understand is how Israel feels it can truly win this conflict. The only line of thought I can come up with is as follows. Up to a point the Israeli attack on Gaza will create a mood of defiance in Gaza and more support for Hamas - but only up to a point. There will come a time when people in Gaza will turn against Hamas. A Second World War parallel would be bombing of Germany. Initially this galvanised support in Germany for Hitler as their war leader. But by 1944-45 the carpet bombing of German cities was breaking morale, so that when Germany was invaded and defeated no resistance movement sprang up, and in the late 40s Germany easily accepted ideas imposed by its conquerors. There will be a tipping point when the misery of the people in Gaza becomes so great that they will turn against Hamas. Maybe, just maybe, this is what Israel is aiming for. The tragedy is that the catalyst is misery of a civilian population.

There seem to be lots of ways for Israel to lose this war, and they have certainly lost public support around the world. Israel must be desperate to be doing this. Do they know something about wepaons Hamas are acquiring?
 

dong20

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Notice how the US is on the side of Israel, and Europe sympathizes with Hamas. It's no wonder we might terror by ourselves... everyone else is nothing but terror-loving bitches.

You're funny.

Of course, Europe hasn't had centuries of experience in dealing with foreign and domestic terrorism and the US has. No, wait ...
 

Notaguru2

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You're funny.

Of course, Europe hasn't had centuries of experience in dealing with foreign and domestic terrorism and the US has. No, wait ...

No, no. That wasn't what I was saying. Europe seems to always side with the Palestinians. That was my point. The US has had relatively ZERO domestic terrorism by comparison to Europe. 9/11 simply introduced us to what Europe has been dealing with since the beginning of time.
 

Jason

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Notice how the US is on the side of Israel, and Europe sympathizes with Hamas. It's no wonder we might terror by ourselves... everyone else is nothing but terror-loving bitches.

It's not this simple. Go to Northern Ireland today and you will see Israeli flags flying in Unionist areas and Palestinian flags in Republican areas - and there are approximately zero Jews and zero Arabs living in Northern Ireland. The European response to terrorists is complex.
 

dong20

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No, no. That wasn't what I was saying. Europe seems to always side with the Palestinians. That was my point. The US has had relatively ZERO domestic terrorism by comparison to Europe. 9/11 simply introduced us to what Europe has been dealing with since the beginning of time.

What you said was below, and I have bolded the elements that were key to my response. The implication was quite plain; Europeans side with terrorists.

Notice how the US is on the side of Israel, and Europe sympathizes with Hamas. It's no wonder we fight terror by ourselves... everyone else is nothing but terror-loving bitches.

Jason somewhat expanded my point which was, primarily; that your view was, and I will put this charitably - simplistic.
 

Notaguru2

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What you said was below, and I have bolded the elements that were key to my response. The implication was quite plain; Europeans side with terrorists.



Jason somewhat expanded my point which was, primarily; that your view was, and I will put this charitably - simplistic.

Yeah, Europe has been sooooo helpful in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, India... I don't need your charity, by the way. The European record speaks for itself.
 

dong20

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Yeah, Europe has been sooooo helpful in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, India...

If you mean by not underaking military actions of questionable legality, killing thousands of civilians, torturing dozens if not hundreds of others and generally making much of the world more dangerous than it was before - under the [disengenuous] guise of war on terror? Then [mostly] - guilty as charged.
 
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Qua

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it would appear Bush's neocon cronies, with the fingers deeply entrenched in the CIA, have been busy of late.

financial ruination wasn't enough, they're going to leave WWIII on the front steps of the White House for President Obama to deal with.

...I don't know whether to respond with scorn, arrogance, derision, amusement or plain disbelief (or what combination thereof)

Really?
 

faceking

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Crazy talkshow host brought up a good point... when this happened (and I saw it firsthand in the news) all you saw was slain Palestinians and Palestinian havoc, and reporting. On the rocket attacks that preceeded weeks earlier... you had to dig VERY deep to find anything remotely similar.

When Islamic extremists did their damage in Dubai... A> it took weeks for anyone in the media to mention it was Islamics, and it was very backpage. And B> we saw no casualty or carnage.
 

transformer_99

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It's come down to an all out war now ! Once and for all this appears to be coming to a real solution ? The only one that makes sense out of two factions that hate each other so. Hamas can't live with Israel/the Jews, then maybe they can try extinction. they made conscious choices and knew exactly who they were putting in harms way while they did it.

Hamas, on it's own is a one legged man in an @ss kicking contest. The moral of the story here: if you aren't bad enough to carry out the hatred you spew, then STFU and try to live in harmony with those that can crush you. It's by their good grace that they allow Hamas to have existed this long. Israel can and is punching their lights out. It's been a long time coming and who knows, one of the others may conquer Israel some day ? And that day we need to mind our own business too !

If they stop now, they're only gonna learn to find a new level of hatred for one another. Imagine that as a solution for the hatred ? Get rid of the "haters" ?

Sources: Gaza death toll from Israeli offensive exceeds 375 - CNN.com
 

Drifterwood

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The issue remains that Israel has used and is still using disproportionate force in retaliation for the Hamas rocket campaign, which itself is a response to the UN condemned Israeli blockade which is in retaliation to etc etc etc etc.

Israel knows exactly what it is doing. Day one was some shock and awe, the following days have been the systematic destruction of the Hamas infrastructure. Mr. Ban Ki-Moon has said that he has been deeply distressed by Israel's excessive use of force which has killed so many civilians in breach of International Humanitarian and Human Rights Law. I guess then that he is also a terrorist-loving bitch.

Did Israel ever try to accomodate the democratic will of the Gazans in electing Hamas? That is an honest question. I am not sure what they could have done given the Hamas stance on Israel, but did Israel and America decide from day one that they were going to overthrow Hamas?
 

Elmer Gantry

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Yeah, Europe has been sooooo helpful in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, India... I don't need your charity, by the way. The European record speaks for itself.

Why? Most of Europe won't have a bar of illegal warfare, human rights subversion, etc and the rest of Europe has the USA to do it's dirty work for them.
 

Elmer Gantry

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Crazy talkshow host brought up a good point... when this happened (and I saw it firsthand in the news) all you saw was slain Palestinians and Palestinian havoc, and reporting. On the rocket attacks that preceeded weeks earlier... you had to dig VERY deep to find anything remotely similar.

The Hamas rocket attacks have been reported down here since they started. However, there has been little in the way of mayhem and carnage to show on TV.

This is more a major problem of mainstream US journalism than anything else. And it has more to do with the sensational nature of what passes for journalism today than any bias felt by the media.
 

Elmer Gantry

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The issue remains that Israel has used and is still using disproportionate force in retaliation for the Hamas rocket campaign, which itself is a response to the UN condemned Israeli blockade which is in retaliation to etc etc etc etc.

Israel knows exactly what it is doing. Day one was some shock and awe, the following days have been the systematic destruction of the Hamas infrastructure. Mr. Ban Ki-Moon has said that he has been deeply distressed by Israel's excessive use of force which has killed so many civilians in breach of International Humanitarian and Human Rights Law. I guess then that he is also a terrorist-loving bitch.

Did Israel ever try to accomodate the democratic will of the Gazans in electing Hamas? That is an honest question. I am not sure what they could have done given the Hamas stance on Israel, but did Israel and America decide from day one that they were going to overthrow Hamas?

Yeah, don't ya just hate it when we give 'em all that democracy and they go and vote for the wrong guy...................
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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Did Israel ever try to accommodate the democratic will of the Gazans in electing Hamas? That is an honest question. I am not sure what they could have done given the Hamas stance on Israel, but did Israel and America decide from day one that they were going to overthrow Hamas?

Yeah, don't ya just hate it when we give 'em all that democracy and they go and vote for the wrong guy...................

Well, that was a chance the Americans took when they pushed for democracy in the Arab world.
But what is democratic about Hamas? They won a majority in the PA legislature, fine. But then they overthrew the PA leadership by brute force.
No democracy there.

Drifter's question ("Did Israel ever try to accommodate the democratic will of the Gazans in electing Hamas?") is a bit disingenuous.

The Israelis could choose to sit up and listen to a party that had won legislative elections.

But hardly to a group sworn to bring about Israel's destruction ... an aim concretized in its charter.

Hamas is considered a terrorist organization by the EU, the US, Japan, and Canada and is banned in Jordan. Its military wing is banned by Australia and the UK.

Everything they do is consistent with that nature.
 

Drifterwood

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What is disingenuous, is to take someone's home, stick them to rot is a shithole and then say "oh my, the nasty terrorists are throwing stones at us when all we want is peace".

Let's not forget that the other country that operated apartheid considered Mandela a terrorist.
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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What is disingenuous, is to take someone's home, stick them to rot is a shithole and then say "oh my, the nasty terrorists are throwing stones at us when all we want is peace".

The UN created Israel.
The Palestinians were driven out after five Arab nations started a war against the newly-born country.
Other Arab nations would not take the Palestinians, so yes, they were left in what one might call a 'shithole.'
The policies of their leaders led to continued marginalization economically and politically, so living conditions worsened. The shithole got shittier.
And the leadership decides to end a truce, a foolish action, deplored by many Arab leaders, that leads to another walloping, one in a long series.
Shittier, shittier, shittier.

But the Israelis do want peace. Only not at the cost of their own slaughter.
The Islamists will accept peace tactically for the moment, but only to pursue the longer range goal of driving the Jews out.
They think real, lasting peace will come only when the territories of ancient Palestine are wholly under Arab suzerainty.
Ain't gonna happen.

Would any Palestinian consider Israel's actions "disingenuous."
I should hope so, because that word only begins to describe what Israel is doing.
But it's clear enough when this will stop. And that is when the Islamists accept that Israel, now six decades old, exists and has a right to exist.

What will the Islamists do?
Probably prove once again that they never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

Let's not forget that the other country that operated apartheid considered Mandela a terrorist.

Let's not forget that the Arabs who lead the best, most easeful lives, live in Israel.
 

Maia

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Let's not forget that the Arabs who lead the best, most easeful lives, live in Israel.
Would you mind expanding on what you mean by this? It doesn't at all reflect my experience in the region. Plenty of Jews, regardless of ancestry, hate life in Israel and thus emigrate. I don't think many people living in Dubai think they are missing out on life in Israel. Perhaps I missed your meaning.
 

Drifterwood

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Rubi, your view of Israel can best be described as rose tinted, I am not sure where you get it from. Even the Wikipedia article on Israel, does not agree with your take on the History.

What many people outside North America find unsavoury is the attitude that the Israelis are all good, poor victims, and the "Arabs" are all nasty and bad and evil. Now you are trying to taint them with the label of Islamists. I suppose this makes it more palateable that they are within the axis of evil.

No wonder the Secretary General is depressed.