Israel / Lebanon.

[AndrewEndowed24]

quiet, grownups (people with mature worldviews) are talking.

You will buy anything as long as it supports your conviction that Israel is evil incarnate.

(It should go without saying that most of what was written is completely inaccurate or decontextualized to an absurd degree)

 

[Lordpendragon]

I am quoting Rabbis and Israelis. That they do not share your views is your problem, not mine.

I am interested why an Irish ex catholic atheist should have such zealous and unquestioning acceptance of a foreign country's and faith's majority view.

"One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Europe" - and I'm the anti-semite - remarkable.

If they are inaccurate and decontextualised, please feel free to rebuff their opinions and historical understanding properly.

Anything goes if you are the victim, he explains: you don’t care about the consequences of your actions for other people, you need not take any responsibility for the effect of your policies on others, you don’t care about how others feel. Israelis always think they’re right, he says. They believe everything they do is right because the Jewish nation is “right,” because they are only responding to what others do to them, only retaliating. “If you combine three elements: the idea that we are right, with the notion that we’re the victim, and with our great military power,” he says, you have a lethal combination. “It’s like being autistic with power. You don’t care about other people because you’ve cast the others as the aggressors. You create a situation where Israel is off the hook.” Israel can act with brutality, but the responsibility, the fault, lies elsewhere.

I think an Israeli Professor of Anthropology with thirty years on the ground has a better insight than you Andrew.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

I think an Israeli Professor of Anthropology with thirty years on the ground has a better insight than you Andrew.

Might and might not.
Anyway, instead of offering questions, you should give positive statements, plus their source, and the significance you draw from them.
Then we can have a discussion.

 

[Lordpendragon]

Might and might not.
Anyway, instead of offering questions, you should give positive statements, plus their source, and the significance you draw from them.
Then we can a discussion.

Not sure what the questions are supposed to be. I agree with Professor Halper and I am not a fan of Zionism, which is a position I share with many Jewish people.

All the sources are found in the links that I listed above.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/jews_against_zionism.html

This is a good place to start if you are interested - it predicts the reaction to my not blindly supporting Sharon and his cronies.

You really should also read the quotes - yes quotes.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/palestinians.html

 

[AndrewEndowed24]

Dude, these are the most unscholarly websites i've ever seen. I really don't see why you should trust their quotations or judgments. They are what i call 'shout pages'. I'll look into it but this is really dubious.

Ten questions to Zionists was developed by a Rabbi who believes that the Jewish people violated the covenant by reclaiming Palestine before the messianic age... He is far closer to the sort of religious zealot you usually decry than any of the Zionists. He has an obvious interest in making Zionism look as if were related to one of the great disasters for the Jewish people. He really isn't a reliable source, what he says might be true but we can't learn about the veracity of his statements from him.




Also, about the professor whose years on the ground make him such an authority... it seems to be a small point of logic, but I too could find a number of israeli academics with similar experience who disagree with him on everypoint... so i really don't think his experience is particularly relevant (when making an argument from authority, the proposed authority has to have a kind of authority which those who disagree with him do not have!), though his arguments might be... hint hint, list some!

the author of ten questions: I found this pretty funny myself, i particularly liked the 'quoting letters from memory bit'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaim_Michael_Dov_Weissmandl:
Specifically, he accused the Zionist organizations of refusing to assist in saving Jews unless they were to go to Palestine (a condition the Nazis were unwilling to accept). Weissmandl supported his allegations by quoting letters from memory, but the original letters have never been found

 

[Shelby]

A dissenting opinion of Halper...
​

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Dude, these are the most unscholarly websites i've ever seen. I really don't see why you should trust their quotations or judgments. They are what i call 'shout pages'. I'll look into it but this is really dubious.

it seems to be a small point of logic, but I too could find a number of israeli academics with similar experience who disagree with him on everypoint.

Good post, Andrew.

I don't doubt that those are 'shout pages,' since so very much online material that deals with the Israeli-Palestinian issue and related matters falls into that category.

I am going to look at the pages, but don't have time today.

And, as you know, that small point of logic is quite big.:smile:

 

[D_Humper E Bogart]

I'm going to throw a *cough*bullshit*cough* Comment somewhere. haven't read the sources, I'm not commenting on them.

Interesting that considering the HUGE millitary investment in anti-missile systems, a few scrappy rockets are too difficult for Patriots to shoot down?

Almost like they want them to reach their targets.

 

[Lordpendragon]

Dude, these are the most unscholarly websites i've ever seen. I really don't see why you should trust their quotations or judgments. They are what i call 'shout pages'. I'll look into it but this is really dubious.

Ten questions to Zionists was developed by a Rabbi who believes that the Jewish people violated the covenant by reclaiming Palestine before the messianic age... He is far closer to the sort of religious zealot you usually decry than any of the Zionists. He has an obvious interest in making Zionism look as if were related to one of the great disasters for the Jewish people. He really isn't a reliable source, what he says might be true but we can't learn about the veracity of his statements from him.


Also, the about the professor whose years on the ground make him such an authority... it seems to be a small point of logic, but I too could find a number of israeli academics with similar experience who disagree with him on everypoint... so i really don't think his experience is particularly relevant (when making an argument from authority, the person has to have a kind of authority which those who disagree with him do not have), though his arguments might be... hint hint, list some!

the author of ten questions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaim_Michael_Dov_Weissmandl:
Specifically, he accused the Zionist organizations of refusing to assist in saving Jews unless they were to go to Palestine (a condition the Nazis were unwilling to accept). Weissmandl supported his allegations by quoting letters from memory, but the original letters have never been found

I am reading my way through the quotations, and I am checking out who they are. I realise that they can be out of context, but some are still very shocking.

I appreciate that the Rabbi is motivated by religious orthodoxy (is that correct?) I think the historical questions are still interesting because they seem to have been buried.

I agree with Halper's take on victimhood. I do not know of his wider politics, but have had a look at Shelby's link - thank you.

There is far more criticism of Israel's policies from within and without than some want you to hear. As I have said before, I am not trying to justify any Palestinian acts of terror, I am trying to present the fact that there is another side to the story because in the US, criticism of Israel is socio-political blasphemy.

I am deeply shocked by the murder of children and this is not the first time that Israel's military seem to have targeted them. Rafah et al.. Read some of the quotes.

OK here is one.

How will the region look the day after unilateral separation? The Palestinians will bombard us with artillery fire – and we will have to retaliate. But at least the war will be at the fence – not in kindergartens in Tel Aviv and Haifa.
Will Israel be prepared to fight this war?
First of all, the fence is not built like the Berlin Wall. It’s a fence that we will be guarding on either side. Instead of entering Gaza, the way we did last week, we will tell the Palestinians that if a single missile is fired over the fence, we will fire 10 in response. And women and children will be killed, and houses will be destroyed. After the fifth such incident, Palestinian mothers won’t allow their husbands to shoot Kassams, because they will know what’s waiting for them.
Second of all, when 2.5 million people live in a closed-off Gaza, it’s going to be a human catastrophe. Those people will become even bigger animals than they are today, with the aid of an insane fundamentalist Islam. The pressure at the border will be awful. It’s going to be a terrible war. So, if we want to remain alive, we will have to kill and kill and kill. All day, every day.
While CNN has its cameras at the wall?
If we don’t kill, we will cease to exist. The only thing that concerns me is how to ensure that the boys and men who are going to have to do the killing will be able to return home to their families and be normal human beings.
What will the end result of all this killing be?
The Palestinians will be forced to realize that demography is no longer significant, because we’re here and they’re there. And then they will begin to ask for “conflict management” talks – not that dirty word “peace.” Peace is a word for believers, and I have no tolerance for believers – neither those who wear yarmulkes nor those who pray to the God of peace. There are those who make pilgrimages to the Baba Sali and the tombs in Hebron, and those who make pilgrimages to Kikar Rabin in Tel Aviv. Both are dangerous.
Unilateral separation doesn’t guarantee “peace” – it guarantees a Zionist-Jewish state with an overwhelming majority of Jews; it guarantees the kind of safety that will return tourists to the country; and it guarantees one other important thing. Between 1948 and 1967, the fence was a fence, and 400,000 people left the West Bank voluntarily. This is what will happen after separation. If a Palestinian cannot come into Tel Aviv for work, he will look in Iraq, or Kuwait, or London. I believe that there will be movement out of the area.​

By: Arnon (Soffer) Sofer
Date: 10 May 2004
Citation: this article/book
Commentary:
Sofer's racism is, indeed, astonishing. But his prediction regarding Israeli behaviour is probably correct – see what Neve Gordon says in this article which is, itself, prompted by this book.

 

[AndrewEndowed24]

Yes, but *he* didn't even have the letters he claimed to be quoting from. Is it possible that he is telling the truth, of course. But his story is pretty fucking sketchy.

Obviously you will have no trouble finding quotations from Israelis who have remarkably negative views of Arabs, the same can be said for the Palestinians in regard to the Jews. That usually happens during wars.

I am going to post the wikipedia article again to make sure everyone sees it. The fact that you would post Weissmandl's (the author of ten questions) views really makes me wonder whether you have any idea what you are talking about. It's a fucking joke, his ideas are laugably unsupported. He was a good man, but he was a religious ideologue who believed that zionism would cause both atheism and would violate the jews' covenant -and it looks like his imagination ran away with him.

I present to you the illustrious author of the Ten Questions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaim_M...Dov_Weissmandl:
Specifically, he accused the Zionist organizations of refusing to assist in saving Jews unless they were to go to Palestine (a condition the Nazis were unwilling to accept). Weissmandl supported his allegations by quoting letters from memory, but the original letters have never been found

This sort of bullshit really pisses me off, fine I'll say it: Lord P, it's time for you to go home now, you're out of your league. You should feel disgraced. Bringing up such allegations on evidence lighter than a feather...

 

[Lordpendragon]

So one part might be sketchy - what of the rest?

 

[AndrewEndowed24]

what rest? The 10 questions was half of your argument.

All you have left is a fringe professor whose arguments you haven't listed
and quotes from some hawkish geography teacher from haifa lol ... far from damning.

Okay, carmen sandiego's views obviously have some currency among the Israeli population, this does not mean that they govern its foreign policy. They are not the sort of positions voiced in Haaretz and other popular Israeli newspapers or voiced by its leaders.

 

[AndrewEndowed24]

So one part might be sketchy - what of the rest?

One part 'might' be sketchy? Might? You're delusional, you made a ridiculous blunder that betrayed your innocence on these matters. Admit that all of it is bullshit or at least most likely so as most historians do. He has no proof of what he says and an incentive to lie and the best you can say is 'it might be sketchy'.

Also, in what areas do you actually object to Soffer's ideas? Isn't his prediction of Palestinian behavior is also accurate? How would you propose Israel react, should they simply let the rocket situation fester and lead to an attrition of Israeli casualities? You have to accept that there is a dilemma in that situation, do not respond militarily and let them fire on your civilian population so that as time wears on you will have lost as much as they would have lost if you had responded harshly in one strong blow, or respond harshly immediately and hurt their civilian population... it isn't obvious which is the best course of action

 

[B_starinvestor]

Actually, all Isreal wants to do is mind its own business and coexist in the region. However, unprovoked attacks and suicide bombings over the past 60 years forces them to keep their guard up. That land was given to Isreal in 1948 after the Holocaust. However, that was considered uninhabitable at that time and was owned by Jordan - but considered worthless. The arab community, however, has been pissed about that ever since 1948.

Interestingly, Lebanon was created in 1948 as well, but I don't hear much wailing about that in the Middle East.

This particular conflict arose because Hezbollah (radical group from Lebanon) kidnapped 2 Isreali soldiers at the border. This isn't "Isreal beating up" on anybody. There is no end in sight with this war - its one of religion and cultures and its very difficult to find a diplomatic resolution in religious conflicts. By the way, I am not Jewish and am not defending Isreal, but I do get frustrated with the media's slanted presentation of war news.

 

[pichulon]

How would you propose Israel react, should they simply let the rocket situation fester and lead to an attrition of Israeli casualities?

2 soldiers are kidnapped, and the response is to destroy a neighbor country with no mercy and with the impunity of being supported by the biggest military machine of the day, the US. Kids, women, civlians of all age and condition die like .......I was going to say dogs, but we do not treat our beloved canines like that........I should say like RATS! That is what israelis think is appropiate??
Then, the cards are on the table, you will be treated with the same sword you sliced the carcass with.

 

[pichulon]

That land was given to Isreal in 1948 after the Holocaust.

Excuse me, but, the one and only ingredient necesary to make that consesion legal was not included in the operation back then in 1948.
The residents and the people of the region were not asked about the planed creation of Israel.
If the US was so altruistic in its desire to build a israeli nation, why not giving them Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, California, Oregon and Washington????
Why not??? Seems like it was easier to go and steal the land of poor peasants in the middle east, and then arm the new nation to its teeth with super power weaponry. The 1948 deal did not create a new nation, it imposed one over in the Arab world.

 

[AndrewEndowed24]

What part of Hezbollah's covenant don't you understand? What part of 'war' don't you understand? Why don't you complain that Hezbollah is using the Lebanese civilian population as human shields? By hiding amongst them while firing at Israel, they are ensuring that civilians will be hurt. The effects of Arab tactics are their own fault, not Israel's.

besides, the post you're quoting me on wasn't even about this situation but the effects of future withdrawal.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

2 soldiers are kidnapped, and the response is to destroy a neighbor country with no mercy and with the impunity of being supported by the biggest military machine of the day, the US. Kids, women, civlians of all age and condition die like .......I was going to say dogs, but we do not treat our beloved canines like that........I should say like RATS! That is what israelis think is appropiate??
Then, the cards are on the table, you will be treated with the same sword you sliced the carcass with.

Pichulon, you really need to inform yourself before you post.
Just the kidnapping of two soldiers?
Well, eight were killed.
And Hezbollah had fired, if memory serves, several hundred rockets in a 48-hour period onto Israeli soil.
Such aggressions, on a lower level of intensity, had been going on since 2000.
The Israelis had the right to defend themselves.
And, since Hezbollah had been installing its rocket launchers in apartment buildings, private homes, and other civilian locations, any Israeli reprisals would necessarily touch innocent civilians.
Who is at fault -- the Israelis, or Hezbollah?
I blame Hebollah more than the Israelis, whose hands should not be so tied that the right to self-defence is denied them.
That said, you have to feel for the innocent civilians who have been killed or injured.
But don't think for a minute that Hezbollah isn't gleeful about the collateral damage.
You don't think Israel should have been created.
Neither do I. But the world created Israel, it's been in place for nearly six decades, and it isn't going any place.
If Arab aggression ceased, all fighting would quickly stop.
But if the Israelis laid down their arms, Hamas, Hezbollah, and the whole terrorist infrastructure would redouble their stated effort to drive the Jews into the sea.
I don't say you're making no good point, Pichulon.
But I think the Israeli position is every bit as sympathetic as that of their opponents.

 

[pichulon]

What part of Hezbollah's covenant don't you understand? What part of 'war' don't you understand? Why don't you complain that Hezbollah is using the Lebanese civilian population as human shields? By hiding amongst them while firing at Israel, they are ensuring that civilians will be hurt. Arab tactics are their own fault, not Israel's.

What you are saying is egregious. Because Israel says that there are terrorists hidding in the civilian population , saying that , even if true, which I belive might be truthfull, the fact that you have bad guys in a city gives you the right to bomb away a city????

Tell that to the relatives of those killed, left blind, paraphlegic, alone with no families no more.

And about Hezbolla, wether you like it or not, it was elected democratically as response to Israel refusal to give back the occupied land, which today stands for stolen land ( land that is taken away with no intentions of turning back).
If Israel was to return the land stolen, Hezbollas would not exist.
Off course, I know your response, hezbolla will always exist, because they hate us, so, we will not return the land, because if we do, they will still hate us.....the perfect recipe for not returning ever the land stolen.

Israel will never return any land, and the recipe to asure that is to keep the conflict on.

Israel will never return the Golan Heights, the West bank, Gaza Strip, Jerusalem, it will never happen. The only country that can force them to do so ( because it is the country that supports them militarilly ) will not do it, because it sees Israel as a arm of its hegemonic plans.

Israel will drive us to another WW. Israel is willing to destroy the world before returning any land.

 

[AndrewEndowed24]

Good call R.

Pinchulon,

You think that religious fanatics are looking for secularist political compromises? Suicide bombers and radical shia are not looking for a two state solution, they want muslim rule. People don't blow themselves up for compromises.

war is egregious that's why Hezbollah shouldn't start them. It isn't just a matter of a 'few bad apples' in a city, they are much more deeply embedded. Like you said that are inspiring Israel to , Hezbollah was democratically elected, they are a major part of southern Lebanon. Being democratically elected does not grant you legitimacy any more than something's truth is depedent upon people's opinions... Being democratically elected in a liberal democracy that has a deep respect for the limits of state power, not just a bunch of sectarian thugs who want to ransack the place -and not a crude majoritarian calculus- gives you legitimacy