Israel / Lebanon.

[Shelby]

The camel jockeys have a tough row to hoe against modern militia. Mohammed's dad Allah is a poor provider.

Ouch!
​

 

[rhino_horn]

I'm backing the Muslims: Isreal and its psychopathic right wing Jewish government has treated them like shit pretty much from the word go

Actually, the Arab world has treated Isreal like shit since 1952 when they became a state. To this day, with a couple of exceptions(Eygpt as one) Arab nations refuse to recognize Isreal as a legitimate state.

Why are the Isrealis wrong for protecting themselves? If the Arab world prefer the Isrealis stop "defending" then maybe they should stop "offending".

Once a upon a time, a few Arab nations attempted to attack Isreal in what would later be called the Six-Day War. After striking Isreal first the Isreali responded with kicking the shit out of the offending counties. This is how Isreal ended up with the Gaza Strip. This is what is called "to the victors go the spoils."

The U.S. was the first nation to recognize Isreal, we have had strong relationship with them ever since. I for one, wish the U.S. would let them off the leash and allow the Isreali to blow the f-ing Arab world back into pre-Muslim time.

all jooo-rytongue aside, i think doc's post covered the rational/human viewpoint.

 

[bigschlotsky]

What a bunch of bs. Israel is doing everything it can to exterminate all Palestinians much less their thievery of Palestinian property and mass destruction of ancient olive groves.

Zionism was a stupid idea in the beginning and even more stupid now. The idea that any state should be founded on a religion is idiotic. It always ends in failure.

Jews are protected in the majority of the world just like any other religious group. Sure there are bigots everywhere but it just proves that religion is the source of bigotry not a cure for it. Jews need to get over their persecution complex and get on with their lives. Reliving the past is not the way forward.

Typical Chico misguided anti-establishment rhetoric. Israel is not trying to exterminate Palestineans, Zionism was the only way to assure another Holocaust wouldn't happen, and a "persecution complex" isn't a complex when you've really been targeted. Hundreds of years of pogroms, and the Holocaust, are not some fairytale concocted by Jewish conspirators somewhere. And nobody's trying to relive the past. But Israel has a right and a need to exist.
And finally, if Cuba or Mexico had missiles pointed at us, and Colombia was supplying them, I doubt anyone in America would be saying "oh, let's only use proportional force." We'd want the missiles destroyed. Period.

 

[rhino_horn]

The camel jockeys have a tough row to hoe against modern militia. Mohammed's dad Allah is a poor provider.

Ouch!
​

nono shelby, get your lies, i mean facts straight...you guys believe allah is jesus' dad.:biggrin1:

 

[Shelby]

nono shelby, get your lies, i mean facts straight...you guys believe allah is jesus' dad.:biggrin1:

money, i.e., power rules

 

[b.c.]

I think the the Israelies and Palestinians both have a right to exist. I think there is plenty of blame for their failure to peacefully co-exist on both sides.

And I suspect there are many forces at work, within their respective governments, and in other governments around the world, who don't ever want to see peace in the Middle East.

 

[rhino_horn]

money, i.e., power rules

ummm...? okay, roofus.:smile:

i got one too:
who runs barter town? master blaster.(the government is master, the brilliant but fragile midget sitting on the shoulders of blaster(the people), the giant retard to be used only as muscle).

*too many sleeping pills today...?

 

[Gillette]

Schlotsky- either there is much you don't know or don't wish to acknowledge.

Please try to show more intelligence than your avatar depicts.

 

[bigschlotsky]

I think the the Israelies and Palestinians both have a right to exist. I think there is plenty of blame for their failure to peacefully co-exist on both sides.

And I suspect there are many forces at work, within their respective governments, and in other governments around the world, who don't ever want to see peace in the Middle East.

Israel, and Jews in general, have learned from history that they must be vigilant in protecting themselves because many people want to destroy them and nobody will protect them if they don't do it themselves. History has shown this vigilance to be necessary and justified, but it sometimes leads to bad choices. I think the current action in Lebanon is 100% justified and necessary, but Israel has made mistakes in Gaza, as have the Palestineans.
As for the "forces at work who don't want peace", I think this is a misperception. Anyone who's ever been to Israel knows the issue in Israel is not whether to have peace. EVERYONE in Israel genuinely wants peace. The issue is on what terms they're willing to give to get it. And again, Lebanon and Gaza are different situations. Lebanon is a clear-cut situation of a foreign terrorist group being supplied by Iran. Israel is 100% in the right in the north. A far more complex issue is Gaza, because the Palestineans there are essentially living in a low security prison, and that is a situation which must somehow be corrected. But it's hard to loosen the reigns when Hamas won't stop shelling Israel, and when they won't accept Israel's right to exist. That is the underlying issue of all of this - the Palestineans do not accept that Israel has the right to be there at all, and that is a problem the world has not held Palestineans to account for.
There are definitely "forces at work who don't want peace" in Iran and Syria. Iran and Syria are oppressive, ineffective governments that have failed miserably to adequately serve their own people. Israel is a hot-button issue in those countries that gets the leaders support from the populace and distracts from their domestic problems. For example, the president of Iran was not very popular in Iran until he started being very vocal that Israel must be destroyed. Then the people love him. So Israel is really Iran's "Wag the Dog."

 

[bigschlotsky]

Schlotsky- either there is much you don't know or don't wish to acknowledge.

Please try to show more intelligence than your avatar depicts.

If you had anything worthy to offer, you would have done so rather than using your entire post to criticise me.

 

[b.c.]

Israel...[etc.]

Then it sounds like we're in agreement.

 

[Gillette]

It's hard for Palestinians to acknowledge the right for Israel to exist when they were forced at gunpoint from their homes to make it possible.

A friend's grandfather was shot for not clearing out fast enough.

In other news when Israel has pulled back from occupied territory they have bulldozed the homes so that there is nothing for the Palestinians to live in. Petty considering the inconvenienced Israeli families were paid 300,000.00 to relocate after a fine wailing performance for the cameras.

What were the Palestinians offered when they were moved out?

Oh, yes, bullets.

 

[Shelby]

The dumbass muslims will throw some rocks & shit or maybe if they get real ambitious they'll blow ther own asses up along with a few of their enemy.

Then they'll get hammered.

The only hole card those assholes have is that their culture is so fucked they'd just as soon die.

We can help.
​

 

[bigschlotsky]

It's hard for Palestinians to acknowledge the right for Israel to exist when they were forced at gunpoint from their homes to make it possible.

If you're saying that the Arabs living in Palestine in 1948 suffered injustices, you'll get no argument from me. But think about what it was like for the Jews, who had just had 6 million, or HALF, of the Jews in the world murdered in a 12 year period while the world stood and watched. The Jews were desperate to have a land of their own, some place where Jews could control their own destiny and be safe. In a perfect world, I wish the Jews could have settled in Israel without mistreating the Arabs who were there. In reality, though, I believe they did what was necessary to assure a viable Jewish state. But again, I do not dispute that Arabs suffered injustices in the process.
1948 aside, Israel is there and they aren't leaving. Starting with Yitzhak Rabin and Netanyahu, Israel has said they are open to the idea of a Palestinean state. But rather than work for this, the Palestineans support terrorists. They hold out hope that Israel and the Jews will be destroyed once and for all. Or maybe some of them realize that's a fantasy, and are just doing it for the 72 virgins. Either way, the Palestineans are not going to improve their situation by supporting terrorism.

 

[b.c.]

If you're saying that the Arabs living in Palestine in 1948 suffered injustices, you'll get no argument from me. But think about what it was like for the Jews, who had just had 6 million, or HALF, of the Jews in the world murdered in a 12 year period while the world stood and watched. The Jews were desperate to have a land of their own, some place where Jews could control their own destiny and be safe. In a perfect world, I wish the Jews could have settled in Israel without mistreating the Arabs who were there. In reality, though, I believe they did what was necessary to assure a viable Jewish state. But again, I do not dispute that Arabs suffered injustices in the process.
1948 aside, Israel is there and they aren't leaving. Starting with Yitzhak Rabin and Netanyahu, Israel has said they are open to the idea of a Palestinean state. But rather than work for this, the Palestineans support terrorists. They hold out hope that Israel and the Jews will be destroyed once and for all. Or maybe some of them realize that's a fantasy, and are just doing it for the 72 virgins. Either way, the Palestineans are not going to improve their situation by supporting terrorism.

As I said, plenty of blame to go around. Perhaps the beginnings of peace is in (both sides) being able to admit where one is wrong.

 

[Gillette]

The Jewish people did suffer atrocities, no dispute here. But to turn around and pass that on to a nation that had no hand in said atrocities is not justifiable.

This is the second time that the Israelites(Zionists) have forced their way into this occupied land. The Canaanites, Jebusites and Philistines were all but slaughtered the first time.

If Israel could have been created in the spirit of integration we might have a different story today, but it is a xenophobic state.

Historically under muslim rule the jewish were unmolested provided they brought no harm to muslims. If a jewish tribe conspired against muslims that tribe was subject to a punishment fitting the crime but other tribes were not held accountable for the others trangressions. Freedom of religion was never challenged.

Shrugging off 1948 and the failure to make reparations since then as being due to the holocaust is as inexcusable as raping a child and saying "hey, I was raped as a kid too"

 

[bigschlotsky]

The Jewish people did suffer atrocities, no dispute here. But to turn around and pass that on to a nation that had no hand in said atrocities is not justifiable.
This is the second time that the Israelites(Zionists) have forced their way into this occupied land. The Canaanites, Jebusites and Philistines were all but slaughtered the first time.
If Israel could have been created in the spirit of integration we might have a different story today, but it is a xenophobic state.
Historically under muslim rule the jewish were unmolested provided they brought no harm to muslims. If a jewish tribe conspired against muslims that tribe was subject to a punishment fitting the crime but other tribes were not held accountable for the others trangressions. Freedom of religion was never challenged.
Shrugging off 1948 and the failure to make reparations since then as being due to the holocaust is as inexcusable as raping a child and saying "hey, I was raped as a kid too"

You're right - if Israel could have been created in the spirit of integration it might be a different story. But that was an impossibility. It's a delusion to think that the Muslims of Palestine were willing to accept the Jews and live in peace. The day Israel was declared a nation, most of the Middle East declared war on it. This was before the injustices of forced removal that you speak of. The Arabs were never remotely willing to live in peace with a Jewish state, and there was a desperate and urgent need for there to be a Jewish state. Yes, I respect that Jews are not the only ones who have suffered, but I'm sorry, 6 million Jews murdered dwarfs anything the Arabs have been through. Quite simply, there was a need for a Jewish state, and the Jews of that time did the best they could to create one, imperfections and all.
But again, all this history dances around the current issue. Israel is there and they're going to be there. Israel is willing to work towards the creation of a Nation of Palestine to exist alongside Israel. It's the Palestineans, and the Iranians and Syrians, who are not willing.

 

[Gillette]

Please try to show more intelligence than your avatar depicts.

I'm going to take the opportunity now to apologize for this. I was too lazy to type out what I wanted to say and took a cheap shot.

I'm sorry.

 

[Gillette]

1. It isn't delusion, jews had been immigrating to Palestine all along with no threat from the muslims.

2. Why was there a desperate need for a state? That's xenophobia again.

3. Anybody would be up in arms the moment they were told by outsiders that their home wasn't theirs anymore. Would you wait for the moving van to show before protesting your removal?

4. I work in 4 hrs and need sleep, I'll look for your replies tomorrow.

 

[bigschlotsky]

1. It isn't delusion, jews had been immigrating to Palestine all along with no threat from the muslims.
2. Why was there a desperate need for a state? That's xenophobia again.
3. Anybody would be up in arms the moment they were told by outsiders that their home wasn't theirs anymore. Would you wait for the moving van to show before protesting your removal?
4. I work in 4 hrs and need sleep, I'll look for your replies tomorrow.

I don't know what you mean by "all along", but I repeat, the day after Israel was declared a nation, the nations of Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq and Saudi Arabia declared war on Israel. This occured before any forced removals of Arabs in Palestine. This fact alone shows there was no willingness to co-exist with a Jewish state. I should also note that the Palestinean refugee problem was made FAR worse by this invasion by Muslim countries. Israel is in many ways now responsible for cleaning up the mess created for the Palestineans by the Arab invasions of 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973.
"Why did there needed to be a Jewish state?" is a question that makes me shudder. It's a question that begs for a discussion of Jewish history.
For centuries, most Jews lived in eastern Europe. For most of that time, Jews lived in their own neighborhoods, or "shtetls", in cities. The reason most Jews lived in cities is they were forbidden by law to own farmland. Periodically, for hundreds of years, Jews were subject to "pogroms", which were murderous rampages in which the non-Jewish majority stormed Jewish neighborhoods killing Jews. These pogroms escalated at certain times, including during the Black Plague. During the plague most Jews managed to avoid getting sick, and Christians interpreted this to mean the Jews were allies of the Devil (in reality, the Jews took ritual baths which kept them clean and prevented them from contracting the plague). During the black plague there were persistant attacks on Jewish communities. During most of the 2nd Millenium Jews across Europe were periodically attacked without any provovation or means to defend themselves.
Finally, the hatred of Jews reached a boiling point when the Nazi's murdered 6 million of them, of HALF the world's Jewish population, between 1933-1945. The Nazis did not do it alone. The Nazis gained assistance in locating, kidnapping and transporting the Jews from the people of Poland, Hungary, Austria, Switzerland, Czecheslovakia, Italy, and parts of the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, Romania, and Bulgaria. Meanwhile, western Europe and the US did nothing to stop it. They knew where the rail lines to the concentration camps were, and they refused to bomb them.
In addition, in the late 1930s, before the Holocaust, many Jews saw the situation in Germany deteriorating and escaped via ships along the north coast of Germany. These Jews were subsequently turned away by Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Ireland, the US, Canada, France, Britain, Portugal and Spain. These Jews ended up returning to Germany where they were mostly murdered. It was a worldwide effort.
After the war, with over half of European Jews murdered, and worldwide Jewish population cut in half, there was a desperate need to create a Jewish safe-haven where Jews could live in peace and not be at the whim of a majority who hated them. In addition, western Europe, Canada and the US wanted a Jewish state because they did not want large numbers of Jewish immigrants trying to get into their countries.
If you still don't understand why there needs to be a Jewish state, I'm at a loss. But I'm not surprised, because most people in the Americas and western Europe have no concept of Jewish history.