Israel / Lebanon.

[bigschlotsky]

Guess what, Cuba DID have missiles pointed at us for a short time, guess what else, not one innocent civilian was killed to remove them. It was proved pretty conclusively by that incident that you don't need to start a war to prevent one.

Sorry, but waging war for peace, as always, is kind of like fucking for virginity. It's a self-defeating prospect.

No, that only shows that war was not necessary to diffuse the Cuban Missile Crisis. They are not comparable situations? The Soviet Union wanted to assert it's power in Cuba to keep the US honest about expanding influence in eastern Europe. Hezbollah, Syria and Iran want to destroy Israel. The situations are not comparable because the Soviets had an incentive to find a peaceful solution. The Soviet Union was not waging a holy war where they thought God would reward them in the afterlife for our destruction.
You'd probably claim we should have tried negotiating with the Nazis too. We let them take the Sudatenland just to be nice. Perhaps we should have let them have a few other countries rather than "waging war to have peace." Pacifism is great but when it goes to the extreme it's dangerous.

 

[YourAvgGuy]

The question still remains though, how can you justify spending time at a site where such things are regularly discussed in a positive light, and which, undoubtedly would be frowned upon by your church, yet claim you live a "biblical" life?

I'm sorry if I can't quite understand, but the dichotomy between what you practice (vis a vis your chosen haunts on the internet), and what you preach (your "Biblical" life) presents an extremely hypocritical picture.

Having come from a family where my grandparents on my mothers side were devoutly involved in a Pentecostal church, I can state without reservation that a devoutly religious Pentecostal Christian would be more likely to try to get this site shut down than to spend time on it.

I will not labor my justifications for visiting this site with you nor anyone else for that matter. As stated, your point is taken, however, be careful from whence you cast your stones; glass shatters my friend.

I am Pentecostal and Pentecostals are extemist in many regards to beliefs and application to Biblical learning. You are right in the fact that many would NOT approve of my visiting this site. Likewise, it would be safe to say that not many "brethen" would be comfortable to discuss issues that are discussed here on this site. I have benefited from some of the conversations I have had here and the threads I have read - everything from underwear brands to proper concealment and dealing with bulges to intimacy relations with my wife. Is it wrong that I choose to look for information to make myself better? Is this the appropriate medium to do it? Who is to say.

I suppose my only recourse is to say... we all must work out our own "salvation." You handle your business and I will mine.

Now, shall we digress our personal beliefs and allow the original content of this board to continue?

 

[dong20]

I'm not going to belittle you, but I must ask, what part of hanging out on a message board discussing penis size, extramarital sex, homosexual activities, and other such topics that fall outside the guidance of most churches falls within those guidelines?

There is nothing wrong with believing in the Bible, but to preach biblical prophecy while visiting a site dedicated to sexuality seems a tad hypocritical.

Does your church approve of you viewing pornographic material? If not, how do you square that with posting here? If you DO live your life Biblically, as you state, how does that fit into LPSG?

Not belittling, just curious.

I may be wrong but that whole post, and especially the last sentence is rather reminiscnent of the posting style of another who shall remain nameless.

The question still remains though, how can you justify spending time at a site where such things are regularly discussed in a positive light, and which, undoubtedly would be frowned upon by your church, yet claim you live a "biblical" life?

I'm sorry if I can't quite understand, but the dichotomy between what you practice (vis a vis your chosen haunts on the internet), and what you preach (your "Biblical" life) presents an extremely hypocritical picture.

Having come from a family where my grandparents on my mothers side were devoutly involved in a Pentecostal church, I can state without reservation that a devoutly religious Pentecostal Christian would be more likely to try to get this site shut down than to spend time on it.

ETA, YourAvgGuy posted in good faith, having said he had deliberated before doing so and all you can do is question his integrity, seems he had good reason for those doubts.

He is entitled to his views, just as you and I are. Beyond what he posted about the situation in the middle east what do his religious convictions have to do with him being a member here, last time I checked, talking about any given subject wasn't punishable by stoning. Why should he have to justify anything, especially his personal beliefs to you, or anyone. How do these affect you?

 

[bigschlotsky]

First - Have you ever been on a reservation? The people who lived in this country for thousands of years before your arrival were either exterminated or shoved onto the most worthless property the US government could find, and told that it was now their home, sorry, that hardly qualifies as just and proper. When you pull someone out of their rich and fertile farmland and shove them in a barren shithole, it's not doing the right thing.

Second, once again, you seem to forget that Cuba DID have missiles pointed at us, and no war was necessary to force their removal. That's what happens when you have truly intelligent people holding the reins of power.

1. Yes, Native American reservations are not ideal situations. I wasn't saying they are Utopia, merely that they have self-government.
2. Again, saying the Cuban Missile Crisis and the current situation are comparable betrays a mental rigidity that is dangerous. The players involved in the 2 situations have very different objectives and incentives. In the Cuban Missile Crisis war ended up not being necessary. There are plenty of other examples, including WWII, where war was necessariy to preserve peace. I'd also include in this category the six times between 1948-1982 that Israel was attacked by a coalition of Arab countries.

 

[YourAvgGuy]

I may be wrong but that whole post, and especially the last sentence is rather reminiscnent of the posting style of another who shall remain nameless.



ETA, YourAvgGuy posted in good faith, having said he had deliberated before doing so and all you can do is question his integrity, seems he had good reason for those doubts.

He is entitled to his views, just as you and I are. Beyond what he posted about the situation in the middle east what do his religious convictions have to do with him being a member here, last time I checked, talking about any given subject wasn't punishable by stoning. Why should he have to justify anything, especially his personal beliefs to you, or anyone. How do these affect you?

Amen, and thank you, Dong. I shall not respond anymore to this thread. I simply stated my opinion, per the authors pose.

I do find it interesting how people are attacked for voicing their opinions here on this site. I joined in January; notice I only have 22 post. Wonder why?

 

[bigschlotsky]

So let me get this straight. . . you think that since Jews were persecuted in Europe, it justifies them persecuting others?

That's like saying that since a friend of mine was shot by a man in New York, it's okay for me to shoot a man in Los Angeles who had nothing to do with it.

It's a ridiculous argument, and simply proves the weakness of your position, what you are attempting to argue is that two wrongs make a right.

I think Jews being persecuted justifies a Jewish state. I think Arabs have created the environment of persecution by still waging terror and refusing to recognize Israel's right to exist, 58 years later.
You're viewing the situation with simplicity and dogmatism, and whereas some others taking your position defend their position with a firm grasp of the history and context, your explanations are based on broad moral principles rather than the specific realities of this situation.

 

[bigschlotsky]

then maybe they should quit pissing everyone off.

Israel withdrew from Gaza and Hamas responded with rockets. Israel withdrew from Lebanon and Hezbollah responded with rockets. Israel accepted the need for a Palestinean state and the Palestineans responded with suicide bombs and state-sponsored terror. The only thing that would make them happy is Israel's destruction. Perhaps you mean Israel should cease to exist, and that would make "everyone happy." If Britain or the US were threatened by a state-sponsored terrorist organization like Israel is, nobody would be complaining about their military going 50 miles over the border to destroy the terrorists' infrastructure.

 

[bigschlotsky]

For my friend who made the comment about Indian Reservations being self-governing nations...

I am American Indian and must tell you that on paper we "supposedly" have a "government-to-government" relationship with with the United States. However, the despair and isolation experienced on reservations, within Indian communities is devistating. Trust me, in no shape or form do we truly "govern" ourselves. If we did and we were truly a "soveriegn" entitity, we would not have to jump through all the hurdles we do to make things better for the people in our tribes/nations. This verbiage is something that a lot of people misunderstand, Natives and non-Natives alike...

As for the reservations... I suggest you visit them... AND do not go to the weathy tribes who have profitable casinos and very low membership (Pequots, for example), visit tribes like the Lakota on Pine Ridge Reservation in S.D. or the Hopi in AZ - tribes who still do not have running water or electricity in their homes, and live in homes with dirt floors or homes carved in a mountain with outhouses... This will give you a better picture of Indian live and the realities some of us face today. My parents live it daily...

Again, I did not claim reservations are wonderful environments, merely that they have self-government.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

The only thing that would make them happy is Israel's destruction.

That's the rub.
I feel sorry for the Palestinian people, but the Israelis have a right to fight for their existence.
Mind you, I think the creation of Israel was a mistake.
But it's there, it's a fact on the ground, and if hostility from the other side ceased, there would be no further problem.
Whereas if the Israelis put down their weapons, it would be their suicide.
Maybe the Israelis go too far. Maybe their reaction is disproportionate. I don't know.
Certainly, I don't feel as much at ease defending them as I once did.
But the fundamental aggression does not begin with the Israelis, IMHO.

 

[mnrocky]

I personally would dearly love to see America concentrate on its own problems before taking on other countries' problems. There's only so much more financial support we as Americans can give before something breaks. Unfortunately, with Israel and Lebanon at war for whatever reasons (I haven't had time to see why they're fighting this time), it will surely have an effect on our oil prices, which drags the U.S. into a volatile situation that ultimately costs the U.S. lives and money. That's my humble opinion, for what it's worth. **sigh**

Its about what it is always about. Religion and to an extent land.
I am personally tired of people going to war over religion. It makes me sick and the whole eye for an eye mentality is ridiculous. These people are raised from birth to hate one another and each others belief system.
We need to distance ourselves from Israel and like you said concentrate on the problems in the U.S.

 

[ETA123]

Again, I did not claim reservations are wonderful environments, merely that they have self-government.

Do they really? Is that why the feds were able to close down tobacco stores on reservation land in Connecticut?

Is that why the feds could trespass on reservation land in Pine Ridge?

 

[bigschlotsky]

Do they really? Is that why the feds were able to close down tobacco stores on reservation land in Connecticut?

Is that why the feds could trespass on reservation land in Pine Ridge?

They don't have absolute autonomy. My statement was they have "almost as much autonomy as states do."

 

[Golfbuddy]

I've been beating this drum for over 30 years. The wakeup call for me was the Iranian hostage crisis. There's no doubt the the meddling of European/American governments in the middle east, and the somewhat capricious partitioning of that part of the world into "countries" has not helped. Nor has our incredibly lazy, stupid attitude about ending out dependency on oil. We've had warning about that for over 30 years, too, and we've done NOTHING. (I recall gas lines all too well.) So what do we do?
1) Immediately, without warning take out Tehran. Everyone and everything. Turn it into a burned out cinder.
2) Inform the leaders of Syria they have exactly 24 hours to turn over all terrorists, completely disarm or Damascus will suffer the same fate.
3) Recall ALL American military from Europe: they've been no help and in fact a hindrance. Let them deal with their own problems.
4) Eliminate ALL radical muslims from the USA. And I don't mean deport them. Then destroy ALL islamic religious schools and buildings, including religious ones. Ban the printing, importation or distribution of the koran.

Yesterday I finally heard a politician with guts say it: All terrorist activity in the work is the result of muslims. That was Netanyahu. Too bad our weenies in this country are so namby-pamby. The fight in this world is against muslims and frankly, I wish we could wipe them all off the face of the earth. If you think I'm too harsh, or Hitler-like, let me ask you this? Do you think this website would exist if muslims ran the world?

 

[dong20]

Amen, and thank you, Dong. I shall not respond anymore to this thread. I simply stated my opinion, per the authors pose.

I do find it interesting how people are attacked for voicing their opinions here on this site. I joined in January; notice I only have 22 post. Wonder why?

Sure, people won't always agree with you I know, but that doesn't negate your opinion and it certainly isn't cause to bypass what you said entirely to merely question your integrity for even being here. As it happens I don't share your views on the religious angle but I'm not going to take potshots at you simply for expressing it.

Keep posting....:smile:

 

[bigschlotsky]

I've been beating this drum for over 30 years. The wakeup call for me was the Iranian hostage crisis. There's no doubt the the meddling of European/American governments in the middle east, and the somewhat capricious partitioning of that part of the world into "countries" has not helped. Nor has our incredibly lazy, stupid attitude about ending out dependency on oil. We've had warning about that for over 30 years, too, and we've done NOTHING.

I agree with this excerpt completely.

 

[rawbone8]

I've been beating this drum for over 30 years. The wakeup call for me was the Iranian hostage crisis. There's no doubt the the meddling of European/American governments in the middle east, and the somewhat capricious partitioning of that part of the world into "countries" has not helped. Nor has our incredibly lazy, stupid attitude about ending out dependency on oil. We've had warning about that for over 30 years, too, and we've done NOTHING. (I recall gas lines all too well.) So what do we do?
1) Immediately, without warning take out Tehran. Everyone and everything. Turn it into a burned out cinder.
2) Inform the leaders of Syria they have exactly 24 hours to turn over all terrorists, completely disarm or Damascus will suffer the same fate.
3) Recall ALL American military from Europe: they've been no help and in fact a hindrance. Let them deal with their own problems.
4) Eliminate ALL radical muslims from the USA. And I don't mean deport them. Then destroy ALL islamic religious schools and buildings, including religious ones. Ban the printing, importation or distribution of the koran.

Yesterday I finally heard a politician with guts say it: All terrorist activity in the work is the result of muslims. That was Netanyahu. Too bad our weenies in this country are so namby-pamby. The fight in this world is against muslims and frankly, I wish we could wipe them all off the face of the earth. If you think I'm too harsh, or Hitler-like, let me ask you this? Do you think this website would exist if muslims ran the world?

I wouldn't much want to live in a world run by war criminals like you advocate either.

 

[bigpumis]

But..."Palestine" never existed until the Romans changed the name from Israel to Palestine, named in association with ancient Babylon.

There was no such place as Palestine until the Romans slaughtered countless Israelis around 70 AD and the Emperor decided to change all of the existing maps.

Certainly the Palestinian people should have a homeland. But not the land God gave to Israel, as recorded in the Torah and in the Koran (you won't hear that in the press!)...I am not Jewish, I am Christian.

Just someone who prays for the peace of Jerusalem.



I feel sorry for the Palestinian people, but the Israelis have a right to fight for their existence.
Mind you, I think the creation of Israel was a mistake.
But it's there, it's a fact on the ground, and if hostility from the other side ceased, there would be no further problem.
Whereas if the Israelis put down their weapons, it would be their suicide.
Maybe the Israelis go too far. Maybe their reaction is disproportionate. I don't know.
Certainly, I don't feel as much at ease defending them as I once did.
But the fundamental aggression does not begin with the Israelis, IMHO.[/quote]

 

[bigschlotsky]

Certainly the Palestinian people should have a homeland. But not the land God gave to Israel, as recorded in the Torah and in the Koran (you won't hear that in the press!)...I am not Jewish, I am Christian.

As is obvious from my posts, I support Israel. But I'm very wary of statements like "God gave the land to ..." God didn't do it. Men did. As an American, one of the annoying things about Bush is he uses so much Christian rhetoric, ideas of good and evil, etc. I don't think it's a good idea to fight Muslim religious dogma with Christian, or Jewish, religious dogma. I'd prefer to exist here in the world of men and leave God out of it.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

But..."Palestine" never existed until the Romans changed the name from Israel to Palestine, named in association with ancient Babylon.

There was no such place as Palestine until the Romans slaughtered countless Israelis around 70 AD and the Emperor decided to change all of the existing maps.

Certainly the Palestinian people should have a homeland. But not the land God gave to Israel, as recorded in the Torah and in the Koran (you won't hear that in the press!)...I am not Jewish, I am Christian.

Just someone who prays for the peace of Jerusalem.

I don't believe God gave anything to anyone. I think these are fables, but of course, that's just my notion.
'God' has a way of popping up on all sides, as you've probably noticed.
If I had my way, the United Nations would not have created the State of Israel ... I mean, it was fairly outrageous, IMHO. There were people who had been there, continuously, for many centuries.
The Jews were obviously assumed to have more personhood than the Arabs.
But that's done with. Israel is there. It's a fact on the ground. And in many (not all) ways, it's a pretty exemplary society.
There can only be a two-state solution. There can't be any right of return for refugees. And peace will come as soon as the Palestinian leadership accepts Israel's right to exist, as Egypt and Jordan have done.
I don't look to history to justify what Israel is doing.
I only say that any state has a right to fight for its existence.
The forces on the other side are pretty damn explicit in stating that they want the destruction of Israel.
And if a lot of Israeli actions make me wince, I have to remember that they can only be too soft once.

 

[ETA123]

Yesterday I finally heard a politician with guts say it: All terrorist activity in the work is the result of muslims.

Really?

Was Timothy McVeigh a muslim? Eric Rudolph? Ted [SIZE=-1]Kaczynski? How about the folks that bombed the King David Hotel in Jerusalem? I wasn't aware that the perpetrators of various IRA bombings over the years were muslim.

McVeigh, Rudolph and Kaczynski were all white, Christian males. The same goes for IRA members.

The sarin gas attacks on the Tokyo subway weren't carried out by muslims.

BTW, a little history lesson for you, the King David Hotel bombing was carried out by Jews in 1946.
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