"Israel to reject international investigation"

Discussion in 'Politics' started by D_Andreas Sukov, Jun 6, 2010.

  1. D_Andreas Sukov

    D_Andreas Sukov Account Disabled

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    BBC News - Israel 'to reject international ship raid inquiry'

    They dont want the UN involved. I have no idea why? The UN wouldn't do anything worthwhile to them.

    "We are discussing with the Obama administration a way in which our inquiry will take place," Mr Oren told Fox News Sunday.

    What a fucking con.

    In the article, they claim their "democratic" status means they should investigate their military, not any international organisation.

    I wonder how many other states that would work with?
     
  2. HazelGod

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    One. The US of A. Coincidence?
     
  3. vince

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    If Israel has the ability and right to investigate itself, than why the fuck are the hiding behind the Obama administrations skirt's? Or should I say Hillary Clinton's skirts? Cowards.... what are they afraid of?
     
  4. Industrialsize

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    Their refusal to be investigated speaks volumes.
     
  5. rbkwp

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    Let Israel Carry on with its stupid ways, the UN would possibly take 3/5 years to decide on anything anyway, hold up the whole shooting match.
    Israel appears to be getting Worse than the Chinese now, for the 'losing face' Scenario
    As the years go by i feel more and more folk are going to have less and less sympathy respect & confidence with that Nation
    (talking there leaders and especially the elected Politicians = the People and the Nation, unfortunately)
    My feeling is the USA needs Israel as much as .. well they NEED each other?
    CRAZY
    enz
     
  6. TroMag

    TroMag New Member

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    Don't underestimate the strength of the pro-Israeli lobby in the US.
     
  7. Jason

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    I can't bring to mind an example where the military of one country were investigated by another country or by the UN. For example I don't think there was an investigation by the international community of the torture and abuse of prisoners in Abu Ghraib by US soldiers. Did the USA allow a dozen or so nations including Arab nations pour over whatever military files they wanted to see?

    It would be very odd indeed were Israel to agree to an international investigation. It would be tantamount to allowing the world to question their right to independence as a nation, and would risk serious damage to Israel. The world politicians and media have created a demand for an independent investigation, something that they know very well will never happen. Maybe it has kept the various "home" audiences content that their politicians are doing something.

    If however an independent investigation were to take place it seems to me that there are broadly two sorts of possible results:
    1) The men killed really were attacking Israeli soldiers and their deaths were legitimate self defence. Possibly the men killed were actively seeking their own deaths, as the Turkish press has stated (for five).
    2) The Israeli soldiers panicked and acted in a way different from their orders and training.

    What possible good would either of these conclusions bring about? Is it not instead likely that the mere act of reporting a conclusion - any conclusion - will trigger more violence?

    The best sort of investigation I can imagine is one conducte by Israel which takes a very long time to report and that report is simply that more information is needed. This is the best hope for peace.
     
  8. Joll

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    Not aware of the UK/US allowing external investigation for the Iraq war - which was just as contentious.

    In response to point 2 of your post, Jase - I read today that the Israelis hadn't really expected much resistance, so when bullets started flying it took them by surprise.
     
  9. vince

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    Israel not agreeing to an investigation does not mean there won't be one. But If they don't cooperate, it will certainly look bad on them. Serbia didn't agree with Milosvich being extradited, but eventually it happened. The World Court in The Hague might be good place to start an investigation into crimes by a state in International waters.
     
  10. vince

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    The German, Italian and Japanese armys were investigated. The crimes committed by the leaders of Rwanda and Serbia were brought before the International Court as well.
     
  11. dreamer20

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    ^^Note the "surprise" bullets came not from the flotilla, but the Israelis as they sprayed the Mavi Marama with bullets when they commenced their sudden surprise commando- style raid upon that ship in the darkness of the night. As the passengers of that ship suddenly found themselves under attack and in mortal danger, with U.S. citizen Furkan Dogan and others being killed before their very eyes, the Israelis should not be surprised that their atrocious, murderous attack triggered both a fight and flight for survival response in their attack victims.


    Israelis opened fire before boarding Gaza flotilla, say released activists | World news | guardian.co.uk

    100


    http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2010/0603/Israeli-raid-on-Gaza-Freedom-Flotilla-killed-US-citizen-Furkan-Dogan/(page)/2

    "The soldiers started shooting and bombing” with bullets and percussion grenades, said Mr. Yunusoalu. “It was a big sound – you can’t hear a thing because of the noise.”Dogan ran “everywhere” before he was killed, recalled Yunusoalu. “We were very afraid.”...

    “No thanks to the Americans for supplying all arms to [the Israelis],” said Sakir Yildirim, a UK-Turkish dual national who was also on the Mavi Marmara ship. He said he witnessed three or four deaths of activists within a few yards of him – one of the men shot in the forehead when the red light of a laser rifle sight alighted there. “All that stuff is American made.”
     
  12. faceking

    faceking Well-Known Member

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    Where is the great Obama on this...

    same ol same ol... is what it is...
     
  13. faceking

    faceking Well-Known Member

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    snickering in my pink leotards...
     
  14. B_RedDude

    B_RedDude New Member

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    The more of this that could happen, the better.

    How can people be so blind as to defend the existence of this vestige of colonialism?

     
  15. sbat

    sbat New Member

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    Most of you are bringing a very false assumption to your analysis of the situation:

    That Israel would be willing to subordinate its perceived security status to the public opinion of armchair diplomats. If I was King of Israel (or whatever they have), I wouldn't want UN fools running around my country telling me how I ought to run my show. Especially if I can get the most powerful country in the world to act as a shield to get them off my back.

    And having lived in DC for a while, and having met many political activists, I can say with great confidence that the vast majority carry political ideologies created in the very safe confines of enabling classrooms, safely tucked away from the poisonous influence of "reality" or the "real world" (who needs those?).

    I actually had a half hour argument with one Noam Chomskyite who worked at an anti-Nuke organization who tried to convince me that somehow, socialist libertarianism would magically give us a peaceful world without violence, conflict, and power-hungry mad men trying to control our lives.
     
  16. Sergeant_Torpedo

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    Remember how the state of Israel was founded. There is no structure that can investigate this rogue state other than the UN. Public opinion counts for a lot. Previously I had little regard for Turkey (its treatment of Kurds, Christians and other minorities) but it seems to have balls when it comes to standing up to Israel.
     
  17. Joll

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    I'm not sure Israel storming a boat is quite comparable to the atrocities perpetrated under Milosevic. :redface:

    Also (not directed towards Vince, btw), I understand a fair amount of the justified criticism towards Israel - but there does seem to be a knee-jerk anti-Israel response around at the moment; the same kind that's often directed towards America. If the facts show they're wrong in a specific situation then fine, but ppl do seem to automatically assume they're always guilty.
     
  18. vince

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    For many people it's cumilative Joll. More and more people are just fed up with the brutal actions of Israel while they never ever accept responsiblity, get free pass from the powers that be, and continue to exaserbate the sitution with occupations, blockades, wholesale denial of basic human rights, and illegal land grabs. All the while claiming the high moral ground of God's 'Chosen People'.

    Sorry man, maybe it is knee jerk at this point, but it is beyond sickening the things this country gets away with.
     
  19. D_Andreas Sukov

    D_Andreas Sukov Account Disabled

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    Exactly

    Would you tell a bully, that you had no evidence against him to punish his misdeads in the hope for peace? It wont work at all.

    Seems like you're coming up with a false conclusion there aswell. Better to try and change the world for the better than to just shit on any other idea and dont contribute anything yourself.
     
  20. sbat

    sbat New Member

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    Call them idiots if you want. You did, I didn't. But they are idiots if they knew anything about Israeli history and expected something different from trying to run a blockade set up by a state that believes itself to be in a de facto war with Palestine (or at least some elements of the Palestinian group), and on the verge of war with most of its neighbors. That's on par with someone trying to run across the zone between North and South Korea to give North Koreans food. You're going to get killed, and you would be an idiot to think you wouldn't be.


    Look, I come from the country with the lowest life expectancy in the world. Hearing about someone dying doesn't have same emotional impact for me as it does for you, and I don't immediately rush to canonize each person that I hear die.

    What I think happened was that some folks with pie in the sky ideals ran into the middle of a big boys game, and expected Israel to act with the same restraint that folks at a college politics meeting act - with concern about other people's opinions etc. But Israel didn't get to where it did by holding paramount some set of unrealistic ideals. They got there by being ruthless and pragmatic. And that's my critique of most political activists. They lack an understanding of both, but are convinced about the power of their ideology, which generally falls apart immediately in the face of the "real world"

    As for what I contribute? I've helped many many family members migrate to the US to go to school and to make better lives for themselves and their kids. I've created businesses that not only improved the services of clients, but created jobs for people to provide for their own families. Ok, so it's not peace in the Middle East - but this Israel Palestine thing has been going on for thousands of years (Palestinians are the same as the Phillistines in the bible, am i right?). So it'll probably die down once women start getting more involved in the high level political decision making, and continue endlessly if they don't.

    You don't help anybody with anything by running into a gunfight with a knife and some big ideals.
     
    #20 sbat, Jun 7, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2010
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