"Israel to reject international investigation"

[sbat]

Remember how the state of Israel was founded. There is no structure that can investigate this rogue state other than the UN. Public opinion counts for a lot. Previously I had little regard for Turkey (its treatment of Kurds, Christians and other minorities) but it seems to have balls when it comes to standing up to Israel.

You can thank shameless self-victimization of Armenians for that. You're really going to judge a nation of people for something that happened in 1915? Or do you have a low opinion of every country with some degree of power? England for its colonial history? Spain for Franco? Most of Latin America for atrocities commited by dictators? Congo, Uganda, Sudan, etc?

 

[Jason]

... rogue state ...

"Rogue state" is a designation used by the UK, USA and a few other countries to refer to a country which sponsors terrorism, has an authoritarian regime, severely restricts human rights and threatens world peace. In order to be a "rogue state" ALL these criteria must be met. Both the UK and USA see Iran as a rogue state (The USA classifies Sudan as rogue also, but I don't think the UK does). By contrast Zimbabwe is not a rogue state because it does not (significantly) threaten world peace. The description of Israel as a "rogue state" (as Turkey has done) is factually incorrect for a democracy with relatively decent human rights. The designation is deeply unhelpful in that it ratchets up the tension in an already tense situation. The Turkish political class are playing to a home audience which is increasingly pro-Islamic and anti-Western and to national shock at the deaths of Turks aboard the ships. They are playing for popular support in Turkey at the expense of peace in the Middle East.

We all want a solution in the Middle East. Calling Israel a "rogue state" is just ill-considered name calling, and makes that solution a little bit less likely.

Calling for an independent investigation is similarly a waste of time. I suggested above that no country allows its military to be investigated. The example of North Korea cited in response is not appropriate - North Korea did not throw open its records and invite the world to investigate the recent sinking. Examples of defeated nations - Serbia, the axis after 2WW - are precisely examples of defeated nations.

Obama has recently called the Gaza blockade "not sustainable". Of course this is right. But nor is opening the border and allowing Hamas to send rockets into Israel sustainable. Presumably the sustainable future is around regime change in Gaza. The genocidal ambitions of Hamas make them every bit as repugnant as every other genocidal group past and present, while the religious fanaticism of their demands for the "nullification" of Israel render them incredibly dangerous. Israel has acted wrongly (and indeed they should be brought to account) but Hamas has committed crimes on a new scale of evil. The biggest enemy of the Palestinian population of Gaza and to peace in the Middle East is the brutal, genocidal, terrorist-supporting Hamas government firmly committed to the murder of every Jew, men, women and children.

 

[Drifterwood]

I thought the US had a proud history of joining wars when their Merchant Shipping was targeted.

 

[TomCat84]

The Israeli/Palestinian crap is so fucking complex- which is why I hesitate to join in on arguments relating to it. So many people tend to be reflexively anti-Israel- saying that Palestinians were there first (ignoring the fact that there was a Jewish populaiton in the region long before Islam, or Christianity, was even a twinkle in anybody's eyes.) Jewish population of the region goes back to long before the apex of the Roman Empire. We take it for granted here in the US that people of different religions can live side by side.

 

[Drifterwood]

It suits some people for it to be considered complex.

I don't, and if you want to play the History game, you can go way way back before the Canaanites were driven out (amongst others). Try taking someone else's house on the basis that god has promised it to you and see what happens.

 

[TomCat84]

It suits some people for it to be considered complex.

I don't, and if you want to play the History game, you can go way way back before the Canaanites were driven out (amongst others). Try taking someone else's house on the basis that god has promised it to you and see what happens.

Yes, but how many nation states today can say they weren't formed by taking all or parts of someone else'es territory? To attack Israel for doing this ignores history. I mean, how far back in history does it have to be before it's ok?

 

[TomCat84]

My preferred solution would be for them all to shut up and live in one gdamned country where religous freedom and freedom of speech and the like are respected.

 

[Drifterwood]

Yes, but how many nation states today can say they weren't formed by taking all or parts of someone else'es territory? To attack Israel for doing this ignores history. I mean, how far back in history does it have to be before it's ok?

Are you talking about the historic Israel that was dismantled by the Romans or the modern State which was intended to be one thing but actually became something else? After Israeli terrorism, I should add.

 

[TomCat84]

Are you talking about the historic Israel that was dismantled by the Romans or the modern State which was intended to be one thing but actually became something else? After Israeli terrorism, I should add.

You mean "terrorism" committed after the surrounding Arab states attacked Israel? 1948, 1967, and 1973 right?

 

[TomCat84]

Are you talking about the historic Israel that was dismantled by the Romans or the modern State which was intended to be one thing but actually became something else? After Israeli terrorism, I should add.

I'm talking about countries like the United States, which gained much territory by taking them from the indigenous people, after breaking treaties supposedly written to save territory for the indigenous. Or China, which took Tibet in the 50s. Or Russia, which is still a big smorgasboard of different historical nations and peoples. Same with many parts of Africa. And Europe.

 

[vince]

You mean "terrorism" committed after the surrounding Arab states attacked Israel? 1948, 1967, and 1973 right?

Drifter can speak for himself, but I suggest you Google the "Stern Gang" or "Lehi" or check out the biographies of Menachem Begin or Yitzhak Shamir and you will get his point.

 

[TomCat84]

Drifter can speak for himself, but I suggest you Google the "Stern Gang" or "Lehi" or check out the biographies of Menachem Begin or Yitzhak Shamir and you will get his point.

Still, if his implication is that this situation is rather simple....than why hasn't HE phoned his government friends and told them HIS solution to the problem? (Which is?)

 

[vince]

Still, if his implication is that this situation is rather simple....than why hasn't HE phoned his government friends and told them HIS solution to the problem? (Which is?)

I don't consider it to be all that complex either. Not to say that the solution, if there ever is one, will be simple. But the origins of the more or less continuous 100 year conflict are fairly easy to research if you stick to the facts and don't get taken in by the emotional rhetoric or propaganda of the various players.

David Ben-Gurion explained how simple the conflict is-
"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country ... There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So it is simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army."

The Palestinians have not yet forgotten and Israel continues to feel the need to hold a boot on their throat in order to survive. I don't think they need to continue to do that and it would be in the best interests of Israel if they stopped it, because Hamas is no different than any other terrorist, resistance group throughout history. Put them in power and remove the external threats to their existence and they will be bought out just as fast as Sadat or Arafat was. Regardless of the BS in their charter.

 

[TomCat84]

I don't consider it to be all that complex either. Not to say that the solution, if there ever is one, will be simple. But the origins of the more or less continuous 100 year conflict are fairly easy to research if you stick to the facts and don't get taken in by the emotional rhetoric or propaganda of the various players.

David Ben-Gurion explained how simple the conflict is-
"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country ... There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So it is simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army."

The Palestinians have not yet forgotten and Israel continues to feel the need to hold a boot on their throat in order to survive. I don't think they need to continue to do that and it would be in the best interests of Israel if they stopped it, because Hamas is no different than any other terrorist, resistance group throughout history. Put them in power and remove the external threats to their existence and they will be bought out just as fast as Sadat or Arafat was. Regardless of the BS in their charter.

As far as I can tell, that area of the Middle East (the Palestinians) haven't been an independent country since it was conquered by the Roman Empire, so I don't know that any country was stolen from them.

 

[TomCat84]

The way I see it, like I said before, is that Gaza/West Bank/Israel should be one big country where the rights of all are respected. It's certainly a naive plan, I admit.


EDIT: and Jerusalem should be an international city. It's too important to 3 of the world's major religions to be considered to belong to any one of them. Christians were there before Muslims, and Jews were there before Christians.

 

[vince]

As far as I can tell, that area of the Middle East (the Palestinians) haven't been an independent country since it was conquered by the Roman Empire, so I don't know that any country was stolen from them.

Well you are right about there never being an independent country there. But that does not have much to do with departure of peasants from villages they had cultivated by tradition and communal right. American Indians had their land stolen too, but did not have much in the way of independent countries.

The way I see it, like I said before, is that Gaza/West Bank/Israel should be one big country where the rights of all are respected. It's certainly a naive plan, I admit.

It might be impossible now, but not naive really. It worked before under the Ottoman Turks. The Sultans ruled Palestine for 400 years and while it wasn't perfect, it was more equitable for the polyglot of ethnicities and religions inhabiting the province than anything before or since.

 

[TomCat84]

Well you are right about there never being an independent country there. But that does not have much to do with departure of peasants from villages they had cultivated by tradition and communal right. American Indians had their land stolen too, but did not have much in the way of independent countries.

Well, the Cherokee had their own country- they even had a written constitution. Once SCOTUS ruled that they had a right to their land, and that it would be illegal to force them to move- Andrew Jackson basically gave the middle finger to the Court and proceeded to expel the Cherokees from said land. Would you propose that we return former Cherokee land to the Cherokee people?

 

[798686]

The Palestinians have not yet forgotten and Israel continues to feel the need to hold a boot on their throat in order to survive. I don't think they need to continue to do that and it would be in the best interests of Israel if they stopped it, because Hamas is no different than any other terrorist, resistance group throughout history. Put them in power and remove the external threats to their existence and they will be bought out just as fast as Sadat or Arafat was. Regardless of the BS in their charter.

I agree to a certain extent. I think Israel are unnecessarily provocative in many ways - with certain treatment of the Palestinians, and settlement building etc. This alienates potential international allies to a degree also.

I realise tho, that there is a threat to them from Hamas - but surely a better balance between curbing terrorism and respecting the rights and needs of Palestinian civilians could be found?

 

[vince]

Well, the Cherokee had their own country- they even had a written constitution. Once SCOTUS ruled that they had a right to their land, and that it would be illegal to force them to move- Andrew Jackson basically gave the middle finger to the Court and proceeded to expel the Cherokees from said land. Would you propose that we return former Cherokee land to the Cherokee people?

Now that you mention it, you're right. Many tribes were like nations. Empires even. The Inca and Aztecs of course were nations. The Iroquois had something called Five Nations somethingorother too. The Haida in BC were like a nation as well.

But yes I would be in favor of that even if it is a naive idea. However the conflict between the USA and the Cherokee people has been settled and that they have something called the Cherokee Nation which is the federally recognized government of the Cherokee people and thereby has sovereign status granted by treaty and law.

Cherokee Nation

 

[TomCat84]

And don't forget how the United States basically conquered half of Mexico due to the 1848 Mexican American War. I guess my point is that it would be unrealistic to return the land to the original owners. Just live side by side in peace.