"Israel to reject international investigation"

[dreamer20]

Ok, so it's not peace in the Middle East - but this Israel Palestine thing has been going on for thousands of years ...Palestinians are the same as the Phillistines in the bible, am i right?

No, the Palestinians were not Philistines. The Philistines were a tribe of unknown origin which once possessed the land of Canaan until the ancient Hebrews overthrew them and took up residence there. Both Jews and Arabs are descended from the Hebrew tribe. When Rome conquered the land, more than 2,000 years ago, the Romans renamed it Palestine. Thus persons who hailed from that land were know as Palestinians. The Israel-Palestine thing is a post WWII conflict involving an influx of Jewish immigrants who decided to dispossess indigenous Palestinians of their lands and their indigenous Palestinian opposition, as opposed to something that has been going on for thousands of years. When the Jewish newcomers got their wish, they renamed Palestine Israel.

 

[Jason]

A lesson of the Northern Ireland conflict is that it is very easy to talk up a problem - and the real problem becomes the talk, not what has actually happened.

We all know Israel was never going to let the aid be delivered direct to Gaza. It should have been taken to Ashdod, either with the agreement of the flotilla or when Israel boarded through a peaceful process. There would have been a little bit of media interest but not a whole lot, and some or most of the aid would have got through to Gaza, eventually.

The problem is that nine people are dead. This has the potential to do enormous damage to peace in the Middle East, to both Israel and Gaza. And all the political and media hysteria does more damage. The truly vulnerable group is the people of Gaza - they are the ones who are going to get hurt as this is talked up.

The recent status quo has been that the missiles fired at Israel have become less common. Israel's draconian controls on imports have reduced the availability of weapons. The people of Gaza are having a miserable time. Yet there was a hope that the people of Gaza would kick out the genocidal Hamas and that the peace process could go forward with the two-state solution.

This process has now pretty much stopped. The international outrage has given considerable support to genocidal Hamas, and the people of Gaza getting rid of them is now less likely. It looks as if we have the entrenchment in Gaza of a terrorist regime pledged to the "nullification" of Israel and the murder of every Jew - and they are getting considerable popular western support as well as support from Turkey. What we now risk is the obvious solution being imposed on Gaza, ie regime change. Basically Israel goes in and governs. What other option does Israel have?

If we are going to avoid Israel acting we have to talk down this disaster. The last thing we want is an inquiry - any result will do damage. And Turkey has acted disgracefully in playing internal Turkish politics with the well-being of the people of Gaza. The world needs to calm down. Basically it needs to get bored with the story and forget it.

 

[B_RedDude]

Tom, I agree with you 100%. It is the best and most just solution.

The way I see it, like I said before, is that Gaza/West Bank/Israel should be one big country where the rights of all are respected. It's certainly a naive plan, I admit.

 

[B_RedDude]

I never knew the m_therf_cker actually openly admitted the thievery of the Jews.

How could any democratic government, or any country for that matter, have ever supported these b_astards?!

David Ben-Gurion explained how simple the conflict is-"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country ... There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So it is simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army."

The Palestinians have not yet forgotten and Israel continues to feel the need to hold a boot on their throat in order to survive. I don't think they need to continue to do that and it would be in the best interests of Israel if they stopped it, because Hamas is no different than any other terrorist, resistance group throughout history. Put them in power and remove the external threats to their existence and they will be bought out just as fast as Sadat or Arafat was. Regardless of the BS in their charter.

 

[B_RedDude]

This so-called "nation-state" was mandated upon the region by the newly-created United Nations.

Marvelous way for the organization to begin!

It was wrong then, and it is STILL wrong! 60 or so years is not that long a period of time. This was done in the very modern era, just after a global war to defend "freedom".

Yes, but how many nation states today can say they weren't formed by taking all or parts of someone else'es territory? To attack Israel for doing this ignores history. I mean, how far back in history does it have to be before it's ok?

 

[B_RedDude]

Here, here!

My preferred solution would be for them all to shut up and live in one gdamned country where religous freedom and freedom of speech and the like are respected.

 

[Drifterwood]

The way I see it, like I said before, is that Gaza/West Bank/Israel should be one big country where the rights of all are respected. It's certainly a naive plan, I admit.


EDIT: and Jerusalem should be an international city. It's too important to 3 of the world's major religions to be considered to belong to any one of them. Christians were there before Muslims, and Jews were there before Christians.

This was the original idea, the rights of all being equally respected.

Thanks Vince for responding as I would have done to the other points.

I may be wrong, but I think that Judaism does have a greater claim to Jerusalem, but that later religions should be respected there. But let's not get distracted by the problems created by all religions believing that they are the only truth.

 

[B_RedDude]

How can people be so blind as to defend the existence of this vestige of colonialism?

For credibility's sake, I want to withdraw this statement as historically ignorant.

I did some reading on the the WWI Allied capture of Palestine, the Balfour declaration, the UN Mandate, etc., and the situation is indeed complex. And "vestige of colonialism" is not really historically accurate.

But I still think that the modern state of Israel should have never been constituted in the way that it was, and that seeing the Jewish people (who have the same rights to peace and security as everyone else as INDIVIUDALS) included in a greater state of "Palestine", or whatever you want to call it, is indeed the most just solution to the problem.

How can anyone in the 21st century with a democratic mindset say that any group of people has a "right" to their own state based on what is, at least in origin, religious belief. How indeed is this any different, except in degree, from an Islamic theocracy? To fall under such criticism, you don't have to be a loony who believes that such a right is based on the belief that "God" gave a people some land 3000 or 4000 years ago.

 

[dreamer20]

*Slight corrections * Re: my post:{#41}

Rome conquered Judea in 64 BC. But in AD 135 Roman Emperor Hadrian renamed the Roman Province of Judea as "Provincia Syria Palaestina", which was shortened to "Palaestina", from which the modern, anglicized Palestine is derived.



Origin of the Name Palestine

 

[B_RedDude]

Why? How do you justify this?

I may be wrong, but I think that Judaism does have a greater claim to Jerusalem

 

[Drifterwood]

Why? How do you justify this?

I may be wrong as I said and Dreamer knows more about these things than me, but I think that Judaism was significant in the founding of Jerusalem and that prior to this point it was not a significant religious/spiritual centre. I haven't got time now to research that properly.

 

[Jason]

I may be wrong as I said and Dreamer knows more about these things than me, but I think that Judaism was significant in the founding of Jerusalem and that prior to this point it was not a significant religious/spiritual centre. I haven't got time now to research that properly.

If you want the depth of history answer then Jerusalem is indeed a Jewish city in origin and subsequent history. There is no economic logic in having a city located where Jerusalem is - it is there instead for religious reasons, because the Ark of the Covenant was carried there from Egypt, and the Temple built on the site. Their have been Jews - and others - in Jerusalem since the Exodus.

But the depth of history argument is one which needs a lot of qualifications. Again look at Northern Ireland. People try to explain the problems in terms of a history lesson. It is all because of the Anglo-Norman invasion of the 1180s or the Battle of the Boyne or the Potato Famine or the Fenians or the Easter Rising or Bloody Sunday - and each side has an encyclopaedic knowledge of the hurt that has been inflicted on their ancestors, both real and mythical. In fact the events that matter to people in their everyday life are from a much shorter time-scale. Basically a decade seems about the significant horizon. If you can create peace for a decade (as now more or less in Northern Ireland) then it becomes the norm. National memories struggle to go back more than the adult life of the majority of a nation - about 30 years.

Within this context it matters little whether Israel has been established 60 years or 3000, nor how the state of Israel came about. Israel is the present reality. This has to be recognised by all. The rhetoric of Hamas - that it is a religious duty to obliterate Israel and kill every Jew - has no moral validity. 60 years ago the destruction of Israel may have been a reasonable goal (though not the murder of all Jews). Now it is beyond any defence.

Gaza is in a most uncomfortable limbo. It is in origin a refugee camp, but now most people who live there were born there. The population has grown enormously and it is now one of the dense population areas of the world. (The original population was small enough for solutions to be possible - the present population is way too big). The tragedy is that there is almost no work - unemployment just short of 50% and lots of under-employment as well. Nor is there ever likely to be much employment - it is a city in the wrong place. Agreed an end to the blocade would help somewhat, but it is not a sufficient solution. Poverty is inevitable, and with it the support of the genocidal Hamas regime and the terrorists. Within a united Israel-Palestine I suppose it would be possible to see the people of Gaza commuting to Ashdod and Tel Aviv to work (though there is not a shortage of labour in these cities). But this isn't going to happen. The two-state solution with an independent Palestine would help Gaza very little as there isn't a great need for labour on the West Bank either.

In as much as there is a solution it is in allowing many of the people of Gaza to move to places where there is work. This really means Arabic speaking cities - after all this is the language and culture of the people. And when you look at the pretty horrible life in Gaza living elsewhere would be an attractive solution to many. But the Arab nations are not opening their doors to allow this much needed migration. A way forward is straight talking with Arab nations. The idea of the Jews all being murdered so that Palestinians can spread out from Gaza is abhorrent; the idea that works is resettlement of the people of the world's oldest refugee camp to Arab cities throughout the Middle East.

 

[798686]

I may be wrong as I said and Dreamer knows more about these things than me, but I think that Judaism was significant in the founding of Jerusalem and that prior to this point it was not a significant religious/spiritual centre. I haven't got time now to research that properly.

It was inhabited by Israelites following their move to Canaan after the Exodus (around 1400bc?), apparently. Previous to that it had been a Jebusite town. I believe Abraham is rumoured to have offered Isaac (or Ishmael if you want the Islamic version) on a hill by Jerusalem, which would've been much earlier (1900 bc?).

I think it was the capital of Israel by 1000bc (maybe earlier?), after which it became the capital of Judah when they split from the rest of Israel. It was captured by the Babylonians between 606-586bc, altho some Jews were allowed to return about 70 years later (536bc?). Then there were always some Jews there (I think?) until the destruction by the Romans around 70ad? (The proceeds from the sacking of the temple/Jerusalem went towards the building of the Colosseum supposedly).

Some believe it was first founded by Abraham's ancestors Shem and Eber (father of the Hebrews?) which would be around 2400bc - altho remains indicate it has been settled since 4000-3000bc.

 

[EvanLesnick]

Well, this isn't really a surprise to me. Israel historically has had a notorious disregard for international law, and has felt free to commit various human rights violations, and atrocities.

Granted, Israel is not the only nation who has a disregard for international law, the United States routinely operates in such a manner as well, however Israel seems to actually be bolder and even more shameless in the character of their actions. Should any nation have the temerity to criticize them, they claim they're fighting for their survival or label their critics as being anti-semitic, as nazi's, and often bring up the holocaust to silence discussion and sort of insinuate that because of the Holocaust that they can do whatever they please with impunity.

And before anybody labels me as being anti-semitic, I'd like to remind people that firstly, I'm Jewish (though, technically, I'm not religious at all), secondly criticizing Israel is NOT anti-semitic -- Israel is a nation, and there is nothing wrong with criticizing the polices of a nation that engages in atrocities. Thirdly, not every Israeli citizen is Jewish, and lastly, not even every Israeli citizen agrees with what it's government does.

 

[Jason]

The story of the last 60 years demonstrates that Israel has many times fought for its survival. And in a tiny country with scarcely anywhere more than 20 miles from a hostile neighbour the whole nation is effectively a military frontier zone. The distance from the West Bank to the sea - the width of Israel - is as little as 10 miles.

Israel has done many things that are wrong - morally wrong and wrong in international law. So have all its neighbours. The problem the international community has is that while it is very easy to criticise Israel no one has come up with a solution to the problems. We get platitudes - everyone should talk, Israel should be nice to the Palestinians. And we get very frequent provocative actions - the missiles fired at Israel, the flotilla. And most of the time Israel sits quietly and takes it. Then one day they don't, and the world condemns Israel. Of course the world is right to condemn wrong actions, but the world also has to give Israel an alternative. All the time there is no peace of the horizon the world accepts double standards - let the media and the poiticians speak out against Israel, but tacitly accept that Israel is in the unique position of facing a neighbour with the stated intention of murdering every single Jew. Hamas speak about Jews hiding behind trees, but Allah will not allow the trees to hide them, and that there is a religious requirement to murder all Jews. It is this crude - "nullification" of Israel and the murder of all Jews. How would the UK or the USA react to an enemy who demanded the "nullification" of the UK/USA and murder of all Brits/Americans? - especially if it looked as if the enemy had the power to carry out the threat.

 

[798686]

Israel has done many things that are wrong - morally wrong and wrong in international law. So have all its neighbours. The problem the international community has is that while it is very easy to criticise Israel no one has come up with a solution to the problems. We get platitudes - everyone should talk, Israel should be nice to the Palestinians. And we get very frequent provocative actions - the missiles fired at Israel, the flotilla. And most of the time Israel sits quietly and takes it. Then one day they don't, and the world condemns Israel. Of course the world is right to condemn wrong actions, but the world also has to give Israel an alternative.

Good points. :smile:

 

[wild_boy]

I live in this place you're talking about, Israel.
I usually don't care about politics, especially not in forums like this, but couldn't stand aside when seeing the posts here.

I will make it short and to the point.. why by god sake do you need investigation? there are clear pictures and movies showing exactly what happened: Israeli soldiers boarded the ship, with no intention to harm any of the passengers. The soldiers were attacked by some of the passengers. Only when the violence became threat to their life the soldiers opened fire, otherwise they would have been slain!
Anyone really believe that if the soldiers would not have opened fire the passengers would just let them go? Best case they would just have killed them, worst case they would have been kidnapped and kept hostages.

 

[callmedafonz]

we will NEVER see peace in that part of the world.

 

[callmedafonz]

Israeli soldiers boarded the ship, with no intention to harm any of the passengers. The soldiers were attacked by some of the passengers.

Lets see here, the Israeli military is NOT known for peacefully handling situations. There is a blockade set up, you are being told to not approach or you will be attacked, and then armed men board your ship? None of the passengers on the ships had a gun, all that some had were a knife. I would figure that if you work on a vessel you would have a knife on you as a tool.

Bottom line is this, Israel should just leave them alone. There was a time when peace was there, but we all know Yitzhak Rabin was assinated because of it. I could give a shit what happens in places outside of the USA, but what happens there effects us. I can assure you that the USA and the rest of the world would have NOTHING to worry about when it comes to terrorists if we would no longer be politically involved with the middle east.

All there terrorists will not be able to go back to the middle east and fight the holy war they want with Israel, and leave us all alone

.

 

[Jason]

I live in this place you're talking about, Israel.
I usually don't care about politics, especially not in forums like this, but couldn't stand aside when seeing the posts here.

I will make it short and to the point.. why by god sake do you need investigation? there are clear pictures and movies showing exactly what happened: Israeli soldiers boarded the ship, with no intention to harm any of the passengers. The soldiers were attacked by some of the passengers. Only when the violence became threat to their life the soldiers opened fire, otherwise they would have been slain!
Anyone really believe that if the soldiers would not have opened fire the passengers would just let them go? Best case they would just have killed them, worst case they would have been kidnapped and kept hostages.

A problem in the Northern Ireland conflict was "Bloody Sunday" where British soldiers opened fire on a crowd (either because they were being attacked or because they believed they were being attacked). In the UK we've held an investigation. It has cost an unbelievable sum and is now about to report - after 38 years! It is very hard to see what good any possible outcome from the report can do, and there is plenty of chance for it to do harm, but it seems we've run out of reasons for delaying any more.

By all mean Israel should hold an investigation. And I'll not bother to read the report when it comes out in 2048.

I don't actually go along with the doom and gloom of "peace will never happen". Peace needs true leadership in the Arab world to accept both in words and in their hearts that Israel exists. Then it needs an Arab solution to Gaza, which means a lot of migration from Gaza to elsewhere in the Arab world. A smaller Gaza may become economically viable, then the two state solution looks like a way forward. Yes there is a way forward, but the Arab nations have to play a leading role. Turkey has acted in a way which has put the chances of peace back, playing internal politics with the peace process - Turkey deserves international condemnation. Interestingly many Arab nations have been more measured - maybe they really do care about the Arabs in Gaza.