"Israel to reject international investigation"

Tattooed Goddess

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The story of the last 60 years demonstrates that Israel has many times fought for its survival. And in a tiny country with scarcely anywhere more than 20 miles from a hostile neighbour the whole nation is effectively a military frontier zone. The distance from the West Bank to the sea - the width of Israel - is as little as 10 miles.

Israel has done many things that are wrong - morally wrong and wrong in international law. So have all its neighbours. The problem the international community has is that while it is very easy to criticise Israel no one has come up with a solution to the problems. We get platitudes - everyone should talk, Israel should be nice to the Palestinians. And we get very frequent provocative actions - the missiles fired at Israel, the flotilla. And most of the time Israel sits quietly and takes it. Then one day they don't, and the world condemns Israel. Of course the world is right to condemn wrong actions, but the world also has to give Israel an alternative. All the time there is no peace of the horizon the world accepts double standards - let the media and the poiticians speak out against Israel, but tacitly accept that Israel is in the unique position of facing a neighbour with the stated intention of murdering every single Jew. Hamas speak about Jews hiding behind trees, but Allah will not allow the trees to hide them, and that there is a religious requirement to murder all Jews. It is this crude - "nullification" of Israel and the murder of all Jews. How would the UK or the USA react to an enemy who demanded the "nullification" of the UK/USA and murder of all Brits/Americans? - especially if it looked as if the enemy had the power to carry out the threat.

Hands down one of the best posts i've ever read on LPSG.
 

Tattooed Goddess

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Exactly



Would you tell a bully, that you had no evidence against him to punish his misdeads in the hope for peace? It wont work at all.


Seems like you're coming up with a false conclusion there aswell. Better to try and change the world for the better than to just shit on any other idea and dont contribute anything yourself.

You are a bully. Read most of your stuff. It's pretty aggressive, more than almost anyone else here but Hickboy.

Your mindset is all about "As long as you are contributing peaceful ideas....". It's bullshit and a bunch of bullshit i say. Don't even get me started on your cowardice. Your opinions about word events is so messed up, no one on the radio even wants to hear it. It's harsh, aggressive and has zero basis in reality and how the world works.

You can keep preaching your peace through aggression. It's pretty hypocritical. You are a whopping 19 years old and try to tell other nations how they should be acting according to you and your radio partners' ideas of how "Socialism is Sexy" sorry babe, when i see socialism on you....it's not sexy in the least.

I admit im aggressive and i don't tell others their opinion sucks if its not contributing to peaceful solutions to world issues. How niave are you? I'm afraid anyone who speaks that loudly and proudly would likely piss their pants in the event of a national attack if they had to take cover. Leave it to the brave to fend for you, you can talk peace while they do.

You give Socialism and Peace a bad name.
 
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Jason

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The Hamas Covenant.

This is in force today and is what the government of Gaza believes:
The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988

It is quite long. But it includes:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

Nationalism, from the point of view of the Islamic Resistance Movement, is part of the religious creed. Nothing in nationalism is more significant or deeper than in the case when an enemy should tread Moslem land. Resisting and quelling the enemy become the individual duty of every Moslem, male or female. A woman can go out to fight the enemy without her husband's permission, and so does the slave: without his master's permission.

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.
 

Stretch

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Bottom line is this, the flotilla was a provocative act which has had the result of destabilising the peace process.

So true Jason. Destabilizing the peace process unfortunately is, too often, the bottom line. That is not exclusive, however, to any particular country or region.
 
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Gillette

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Yes, but how many nation states today can say they weren't formed by taking all or parts of someone else's territory? To attack Israel for doing this ignores history.
Truth. However there is a key distinction that makes Israel a particularly bitter pill for the Palestinians to swallow. While all other occupations have been carried out by the occupying force, in this case the expulsion was done by other forces. Israel had no might with which to carry this out. It was not a fight between a jewish & a muslim nation and to the victor go the spoils. It was a case of the christian bullies shoving them out and inviting the jewish refugees to take over their homes, businesses...their lives. In history this is unique.

My preferred solution would be for them all to shut up and live in one gdamned country where religous freedom and freedom of speech and the like are respected.
Agreed.

The idea of the Jews all being murdered so that Palestinians can spread out from Gaza is abhorrent; the idea that works is resettlement of the people of the world's oldest refugee camp to Arab cities throughout the Middle East.
Yes, the idea of Jews being murdered is abhorrent but so is your crap idea. Are you serious?

The allied powers made the colossal mistake (if mistake it was) of creating unbearable tension in the mid-east by marginalizing an entire group of people based on their religion on behalf of another. They arm and train these newcomers so that they can keep the original inhabitants marginalized and make halfhearted tsk sounds when this occupying force marginalizes them even further, in fact continues to supply the occupiers aid.

Now, because the tension is mounting due to something the aggressors triggered your solution is to tell the victims to piss off elsewhere? Families in a community that has existed for centuries that are now clinging to the last vestiges of their homeland allowed them should just fuck off so that the problems that they had no fucking fault in creating in the first place can just cease because then the forced expulsion and occupation can be complete.

Oh, yeah, that seems like a just solution.
Can't see that causing any additional resentment. Nope, not at all.

Some things to consider, Jason.

If the Palestinians are scattered to the four winds Hamas isn't suddenly going to go tits up, they'll be freshly infused and better supplied by the countries they integrate with, they'll have a brand new grievance to rally around and they'll no longer be directly under the watchful eye of their no longer neighbour Israel.

With all the whispered fears of Arab nations possibly having nukes it would behoove Israel to keep the Palestinians close. The collateral damage the Palestinians would suffer were Israel hit would cancel out the purpose of hitting Israel in the first place. But if the Palestinians were dispersed and it was only jews in the region...

Regarding "the worlds oldest refugee camp". Which one? The very concept of Israel was that it be for jewish refugees a home where they could feel safe. The only difference is that Israel was created with international support while Palestine was created with international disregard.

No, Jason, the solution isn't to sweep the remaining embarrassing results from the Allied Forces' mistake. The solution is to correct that mistake by ending the segregation and marginalization. Integrate the two populations as they once were and give them equal rights and representation. Remove the suffering and the need for a vengeful organization dissipates with it.
 
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Gillette

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"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."
While Hamas is the elected government not every Palestinian believes this way.

In fact I'd go so far as to guess an overwhelming majority has grown past the point of believing in partisan trees and would be willing to seek a peaceful solution with Israel if Israel would kindly take the boot off their neck.
 

BIGBULL29

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If I were Jewish, I'd hate the whole world, too. And I definitely wouldn't live in Western Europe, let alone Eastern Europe (Russia is still a total nightmare for Jews).

Lots of Anti-Semites out there. Wonder if we all felt that towards Christians, Muslims, etc...

I never saw a more hated people in history. Truly sickening...

If you don't like Israel's policies, fine, but don't come off as anti-semitic, like so many of you do. It's nauseating, considering what happened 60 years ago (it's not 200 years ago, or 500, 1000). Shame on you!
 

Stretch

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If I were Jewish, I'd hate the whole world, too. And I definitely wouldn't live in Western Europe, let alone Eastern Europe (Russia is still a total nightmare for Jews).

Lots of Anti-Semites out there. Wonder if we all felt that towards Christians, Muslims, etc...

I never saw a more hated people in history. Truly sickening...

If you don't like Israel's policies, fine, but don't come off as anti-semitic, like so many of you do. It's nauseating, considering what happened 60 years ago (it's not 200 years ago, or 500, 1000). Shame on you!

Huh? If you were Jewish you would hate the world? "Wonder if we all felt that towards Christians, Muslims, etc..."...Are you serious? Did you write this post because you lost a bet? :cool:
 

Gillette

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If you don't like Israel's policies, fine, but don't come off as anti-semitic, like so many of you do. It's nauseating, considering what happened 60 years ago (it's not 200 years ago, or 500, 1000). Shame on you!
I doubt anyone has forgotten. It's also worth remembering that the first stage was herding them into tightly controlled areas and restricting their access to supplies.

Sound like anything current?
 

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Gillette, if you owned an apartment building, but the law said you had to rent a room of it to a guy who loved to kill women who had brown hair and blue eyes who owned apartment buildings, would you let the guy knocking on your door bring him some "supplies"

Even if they were just a box full of shoes, you would want to know if he was bringing in supplies to kill you wouldnt you?
 

Mr. Snakey

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Israel will do what has to do to defend itself. Nobody will stop them. Certainly not the current administration. It's 5 hours of golf, the rug roles down at noon. Then it's time to meet the N.B.A champs. Then after dinner Paul McCartney will sing till midnight. If the guy from B.P calls tell him i'm not here......
 

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Okay. I'm offering an alternative. Voluntary dissolution of their unjustly created "state".

I want them to be able to stay in the region, but they should have to share a nation-state with the Palestinians.

Of course the world is right to condemn wrong actions, but the world also has to give Israel an alternative.
 

Gillette

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Gillette, if you owned an apartment building, but the law said you had to rent a room of it to a guy who loved to kill women who had brown hair and blue eyes who owned apartment buildings, would you let the guy knocking on your door bring him some "supplies"

Even if they were just a box full of shoes, you would want to know if he was bringing in supplies to kill you wouldnt you?
I have brown eyes.

If he's knocking on my door he's got the wrong apartment but sure, I'd try to have a peek before redirecting him. Operative word: try.

However, I'm not going to kill the mailman, whose access I have no business restricting anyway, for his refusing to open all his packages for my inspection.

Lastly, if you're trying to make parallels with this, I only own this building through squatters rights because some thug friends of mine helped me force him (the original landlord) into that room (even though we initially let him have the whole apartment) and keep him there.

If it were me I wouldn't be killing my thug friends' cousins for not letting me check their bags, because my thug friends might stop helping me if I did. What I'd be doing is damage control and looking for ways he and I could coexist. Each take half the units and maybe restore his water as a good faith gesture.
 
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B_RedDude

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This is a serious question that I've been pondering (and I'm not advocating violence or hatred against the Jews): Why have the Jews been so hated?

Is it because they are different? Because they are a minority? Because they refuse to conform to one religion or another? Or is there just something about the Jews that pisses people off?

I never saw a more hated people in history.
 

D_Abraham Slinkin

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This is a serious question that I've been pondering (and I'm not advocating violence or hatred against the Jews): Why have the Jews been so hated?

Is it because they are different? Because they are a minority? Because they refuse to conform to one religion or another? Or is there just something about the Jews that pisses people off?

First and foremost - since the conversion of the last European States to Christianity, the Jews were the only none Christians in Europe. In the 14th century anyone who wasn't a pious christian was a heretic, they were lucky not to have been wiped out entirely then.

Secondly, in the 15th century countless laws were passed which limited Jobs Jews could do - one of the only ones left was Banking, so this became the Jewish Profession, from this point on Wealth was associated with Jews.

In the 19th and early 20th century - Jews were the established 'Upper Middle Classes' - The poor hated the rich, and by default, the majority of Jews. Politicians did nothing to stop this, and this came to a head in Nazi Germany when the German Upper class blamed the Jews for the wealth divisions of Germany and promoted the eradication of the jews as some sort of mass wealth re-distribution.

In line with all of those comments - the Jews refused to assimilate. In the past, when countries were conquered - they assimilated into their new occupiers culture, when people immigrated - within 2 generations they would be assimilated - not with the Jews. They refused to melt into Greek, Roman, Arab, English, Italian, French, German, Russian Civilizations, so were always seen, and to some extent because of this are still, as Foreigners.

That is why the Jews have always been hated.
And PS, don't anyone challenge these views, this is a none-partisan view point and I don't meant to favour nor discrimate against Jews but provide a neutral historical account as to why they were hated.
 

D_Abraham Slinkin

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In regards to the Israel/Palestine events at the moment - of course no one approves of the suffering of the innocent Palestinian Civilians. Israel would love to remove the blockade of Gaza, do you think they enjoy the Rockets which are fired or the international condemnation, no. But Gaza is run by an Iranian Backed Terrorist group who's sole political aim is 'The Eradication of the state of Israel'. If the blockade were lifted, Hamas would be able to receive more Iranian missles than it currently does and Jerusalem would be flattened - that is why the blockade of Gaza has to remain, but Israel should allow unlimited amount of Aid and supplies in terms of Food and Medical Supplies - but don't think Israel is some evil power, every day hundreds of Palestinian children are allowed into Ashdod for Medical Care - provided free by the Israeli state - if you don't believe me, go to Ashdod yourself and look.

There is no blockade in the West Bank, why? Because Fatah are the government there. They don't launch rockets into Israel, they are peaceful, and the Palestinians in the West Bank enjoy a much greater quality of life because of this. If Israel was anti-palestinian, there would be a similar West Bank blockade.

Many Arabs live in Israel proper, infact hundreds of thousands, and they have their own MPs in the parliament, vote, go to school, they live like any other citizen of Israel - so don't try and make out that all the Arabs were drove from their land, many Arabs are Arab-Israelis and the Jews and Muslims get along mostly well.

But of course there are those in the Orthodox community who are extremist Jews, who do attack Palestinians and steal their land, especially in West Jerusalem, but everyday israelis hate them too, and I wish the government would do more to crack down on that.

But please don't fall for the lies of the Leftwing-Islamist Press like the BBC. The 2nd Flotilla, the Irish one, no one died, no one was injured, the boat was escorted to Ashdod and the Aid made it to Gaza. Why was the 1st flotilla so reluctant to an inspection? What were they hiding?

The boat WAS NOT in international waters, it was in Israeli Waters. There are no International Waters in the Mediterranean, Israeli customs officers were in their right to inspect any ship, and when they boarded the boat, they were clubbed with poles and knives and thrown into the sea! The Israeli army was within its rights to defend itself.

(note image here:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f1/Internationalwaters.png)


The Future? Do not under estimate the danger than Hamas pose. Iran has a scheme to finish what Hitler started, Hamas are effectively a puppet branch of Iran. We need to work with Fatah to remove this terrorist government for the good of everyone in the world, in Gaza, in Israel, for everyone.

My Proposals:
• The Blockade should be managed by UN forces, not israeli ones so no one can blame Israel, and there should be unlimited aid allowed into Gaza by land as long as it is fully inspected.
• Gaza and most of the West Bank need to become an independent state, but with control of Army and the Policing given to UN peacekeepers, as the new young weak state would be in danger of being infiltrated by extremists and Iran.
• Jerusalem and part of the West Bank need to become an Independent state, with a joint Israeli-Palestinian government. That is the only way to guarantee everyone's rights to the holy city.

More importantly, we need to remember that all these deaths are lives, in this conflict too often they become numbers.
RIP all those killed in the recent weeks
שלום
מ
 

Gillette

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This is a serious question that I've been pondering (and I'm not advocating violence or hatred against the Jews): Why have the Jews been so hated?

Is it because they are different? Because they are a minority? Because they refuse to conform to one religion or another? Or is there just something about the Jews that pisses people off?
Xenophobia.

In times of national difficulty the quickest way to rally the population is against a common enemy. The jews of the diaspora, wherever they went, were always TFNG (the fucking new guy) who got the blame dumped on their heads for whatever ills the nation was facing.

It might be worth noting that the primary and relentless source of persecution the jews have faced prior to the creation of Israel was christians.
Christians suffering from a depression looked to the newcomers, prospering merchants, and collectively said, "they're our problem".

Muslims on the other hand welcomed the jews, had no quarrel with freedom of religion or the building of Hebrew schools, because they knew that the skills and trade they brought would help their empire to prosper.

Funny world, ain't it? Two groups of the same Semetic origin who didn't rub along to badly together when left to their own devices were set against each other by the meddling of Europeans in the middle of a region that contains the motherload of a substance the Europeans found had incredible value to them.

Gosh, it just seems so random.
:rolleyes:
 

Gillette

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The boat WAS NOT in international waters, it was in Israeli Waters. There are no International Waters in the Mediterranean, Israeli customs officers were in their right to inspect any ship, and when they boarded the boat, they were clubbed with poles and knives and thrown into the sea! The Israeli army was within its rights to defend itself.
I agree with most of what you've said but I'd like to clarify this point about international waters. There most certainly are. Israel's recognized territory is 12 nautical miles and is not contiguous (does not extend an additional 12nm).
Territorial waters - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(I know, I know...it's just a wiki)

By choosing the argument of "self defense", the Israeli authorities have explicitly claimed sovereignty over international waters up to 69 nautical miles off the coast of Palestine, on the pretext that this annexation - whether temporary or permanent - is essential for the continuation of the blockade, which in turn is necesarry for the security of the State of Israel.
Why Did Israel Attack Civilians in the Mediterranean?

Annexed. Meaning they've just taken it. The same way they took additional land before and still do (Israel decides it needs more of a buffer zone. Instead of moving three miles back it pushes it thee miles forward prohibiting farmers from using 30% of Gaza's arable land lest they be shot) Annexed because they consider it essential to the continuation of a blockade that is itself illegal in it's denial of basic human rights.
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/a...52a-4c70-b641-986de2db878a/mde150022010en.pdf

Israeli customs officers? They were masked commandos rappelling from a helicopter. Not quite as innocuous as you make it sound. What were they carrying? Apparently electric wheelchairs and concrete. I can see how the wheelchairs could be used for bomb parts but concrete? Maybe if Israel stopped bulldozing homes in Gaza they wouldn't need shipments of concrete.

Anyway, the math.
Recognized, 12 nautical miles.
Annexed, 69 nautical miles.
Location as reported on tele 75 nautical miles.
That strikes me as international waters.
 
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First and foremost - since the conversion of the last European States to Christianity, the Jews were the only none Christians in Europe. In the 14th century anyone who wasn't a pious christian was a heretic, they were lucky not to have been wiped out entirely then.

Secondly, in the 15th century countless laws were passed which limited Jobs Jews could do - one of the only ones left was Banking, so this became the Jewish Profession, from this point on Wealth was associated with Jews.

In the 19th and early 20th century - Jews were the established 'Upper Middle Classes' - The poor hated the rich, and by default, the majority of Jews. Politicians did nothing to stop this, and this came to a head in Nazi Germany when the German Upper class blamed the Jews for the wealth divisions of Germany and promoted the eradication of the jews as some sort of mass wealth re-distribution.

In line with all of those comments - the Jews refused to assimilate. In the past, when countries were conquered - they assimilated into their new occupiers culture, when people immigrated - within 2 generations they would be assimilated - not with the Jews. They refused to melt into Greek, Roman, Arab, English, Italian, French, German, Russian Civilizations, so were always seen, and to some extent because of this are still, as Foreigners.

That is why the Jews have always been hated.
And PS, don't anyone challenge these views, this is a none-partisan view point and I don't meant to favour nor discrimate against Jews but provide a neutral historical account as to why they were hated.
There's also the fact that they worshipped on Saturday instead of Sunday which made assimilation impossible - and got Sunday worshippers hot under the collar - since it was such an important issue back in the day. They were also blamed for Christ's death...

A lot of Jews were unfairly blamed for the black death in central Europe in the 14th century (people accused them of poisoning the water supply), so many apparently fled to places like Poland which is why so many were still there by WW2 time.