"Israel to reject international investigation"

[Boondocksaints]

The way I see it, like I said before, is that Gaza/West Bank/Israel should be one big country where the rights of all are respected. It's certainly a naive plan, I admit.

The problem is that Israel does not want this because they want to retain the democratic majority. It is common knowledge that the few Arabs that stayed in Israel when it took power are now producing kids at a higher percentage than Jews. When you really think about it, Israel is not a true democracy. Judaism is a religion and arguably an ethnicity. How can you claim to be a true democracy when you blatantly favor one group of it's citizens over another? Israel's original charter lists itself as a "Jewish homeland." Imagine if the US coined itself the "white Christian homeland." It wouldn't be a true democracy.

This situation is like the chicken or the egg scenario. Israel wants to stop the violence coming from the West Bank/Gaza Strip and so continue to occupy the land. Yet their presence on that land is the very reason for the violence. Also, the West Bank and Gaza Strip is not legally their land.

For those posters that say we should let Israel handle their own affairs. I agree- but I also don't condone giving away tens of billions to them every year in aid and also military technology. The US shouldn't be able to tell another sovereign nation what to do, but we also don't have to help subsidize it. Our relationship with Israel hurts us much more than helps.

 

[Jason]

It is interesting to look at the likely consequencies of this situation.

Hamas are a genocidal, terrorist group whose aim is the "nullification" of Israel and the murder of all Jews. The great sadness is that the people of Gaza have voted for them, just as in the 1930s the people of Germany voted for the Nazis. The contrast is the West Bank where a much better government is working towards the two state solution. Israel has imposed an uneasy truce through the blockade. But this is unsustainable - we all know this. There was the hope that the people of Gaza would kick out Hamas and become part of a Palestine on track to the two-state solution - and this dream is the big casualty of the flotilla. The uneasy truce and muddle is now looking unsustainable. So what might happen:

* The idea of the UN administering the blockade (suggested in someone's post above) might be a good one. While a blockade is essential while Hamas are in power, yet it is also clearly wrong - which is presumably why the UN doesn't want to get involved in it. The underlying wrong is Hamas.

* Then there's an international force imposing a new regime in Gaza - this might be the best option though hard to see how this could be put together. Of course this would start off as a non democratic solution, then we pray that at a later date the people of Gaza do not vote for genocidal terrorists.

* Most probably we wait until the situation becomes intolerable then Israel goes in (and the world condemns).

The consequencies of the flotilla have been a disaster. Just possibly we could try to ignore the issue and pretend that nothing has happened. No more flotillas, no silly inquiries (or at least no reports from inquiries) and we might just muddle on until such a time as the people of Gaza kick out Hamas. But it is as if the whole world is doing its very best to stir up trouble in the Middle East.

 

[D_Andreas Sukov]

You are a bully. Read most of your stuff. It's pretty aggressive, more than almost anyone else here but Hickboy.
ok.
Your mindset is all about "As long as you are contributing peaceful ideas....". It's bullshit and a bunch of bullshit i say. Don't even get me started on your cowardice. Your opinions about word events is so messed up, no one on the radio even wants to hear it. It's harsh, aggressive and has zero basis in reality and how the world works.
What cowardice? My radio show was never political. It has basis in reality, just not in this capitalist system.
You can keep preaching your peace through aggression. It's pretty hypocritical. You are a whopping 19 years old and try to tell other nations how they should be acting according to you and your radio partners' ideas of how "Socialism is Sexy" sorry babe, when i see socialism on you....it's not sexy in the least.
Have you ever listened to my radio show? Why do you keep bringing it up?

I admit im aggressive and i don't tell others their opinion sucks if its not contributing to peaceful solutions to world issues. How niave are you? I'm afraid anyone who speaks that loudly and proudly would likely piss their pants in the event of a national attack if they had to take cover. Leave it to the brave to fend for you, you can talk peace while they do.
Again, your personal attacks are so useless. You have no basis for any of it.

You give Socialism and Peace a bad name.
Wasn't that a Bon Jovi B-side?

:smile:

 

[sbat]

Bottom line is this, the flotilla was a provocative act which has had the result of destabilising the peace process.

Precisely why I have no sympathy for those that died.

They knowingly played with fire and got burned. Not saying that you deserve to get burned if you play with fire, but that's just what's gonna happen, because that's what fire does. It burns things.

I really wonder, what did those activists really expect to happen? What were their motivations? All this talk about international waters...where do you think they were headed? Egypt, so they could airdrop supplies a la Berlin 1948?

 

[bigbull29]

This is a serious question that I've been pondering (and I'm not advocating violence or hatred against the Jews): Why have the Jews been so hated?

Is it because they are different? Because they are a minority? Because they refuse to conform to one religion or another? Or is there just something about the Jews that pisses people off?

I have no idea why. If I were Jewish, I'd have a chip on my shoulder. No other group in history has been so hated. Yeah, that doesn't make other persecuted groups' plights less serious, but what is about the Jews that elicits such profuse hatred in people?

Why? Because they are God's chosen people? Maybe they are. I don't know.

 

[dreamer20]

Precisely why I have no sympathy for those that died.

They knowingly played with fire and got burned... I really wonder,
what did those activists really expect to happen? What were their motivations?
All this talk about international waters...where do you think they were headed? Egypt, so they could airdrop supplies a la Berlin 1948?

Among the peace activists, who hailed from many nations, were numerous international journalists, a former U.S. ambassador, a member of Israel's parliament and other Israelis. Those former persons, being unarmed and aboard a flotilla bearing humanitarian aid, did not expect a violent attack and robbery by Israeli commandos, who assassinated passengers, beat them, tasered them, imprisoned them, destroyed and confiscated CCTV cameras, all cameras, cellular phones, broadcasting, recording equipment and seized their possessions, the ships and cargo.

The peace activists' motivation was to get a media spotlight focused on the denizens of Gaza who suffer under Israel's illegal blockade, their effort to bring humanitarian aid to them and call for an end to Israel's inhuman treatment of those persons. The activists' atrocious treatment at the hands of the Israeli commandos was not in vain, but became a Pyrrhic victory for them, as they gained worldwide attention and support for their cause, and Israel's government was condemned for disgraceful Israeli actions in the flotilla incident and Gaza. Hence Egypt rescinded its former blockade of Gaza, which was done in conjunction with Israel, and reopened its border to Gaza "to allow humanitarian and medical aid into the Gaza Strip, as well as to receive medical cases which require access to Egyptian territory,"...


Egypt opens border with Gaza for humanitarian aid - Telegraph

 

[dreamer20]

*sentence edit*

^^Hence Egypt, which previously blockaded Gaza with Israel, reopened its border to Gaza "to allow humanitarian and medical aid into the Gaza Strip, as well as to receive medical cases which require access to Egyptian territory,"...

 

[Jason]

I really wonder, what did those activists really expect to happen? What were their motivations? All this talk about international waters...where do you think they were headed? Egypt, so they could airdrop supplies a la Berlin 1948?

No doubt many different answers.

Expectations are probably the easier to speculate on. Presumably almost none thought that they would actually break the blockade and land supplies in Gaza. Presumably the expectation was that Israel would board the flotilla and they would in fact land in Ashdod or another Israeli port, and that the supplies (after the Israelis had checked them) would be trucked into Gaza. There are far easier ways to achieve the end of delivering supplies to Gaza through Israel, so presumably there was an expectation of publicity that would damage Israel. Indeed such publicity may be a primary goal, and this is where the whole project begins to look less like humanitarian aid and more like a political stunt. And of course Israel could not leave boarding the ships to 12 nautical miles of the Gaza coast as small boats putting out from Gaza would have got involved. It had to be done further out, and that would cause more problems for Israel.

Motivations are far harder.
* Presumably most on board expected to generate publicity and it is this publicity that was the primary motivation (as set out above they could not have expected Israel to allow them to break the blockade of Gaza). This publicity might be positive (to highlight the problems faced by the people of Gaza) or negative (to damage Israel) - or perhaps both. For many in the West there are perceived links between the Palestinian struggle and other terorist-backed armed struggles (so in Northern Ireland supporters of the terrorist group Real IRA fly Palestinian flags in sympathy with Hamas). The Palestinian cause is seen as part of a global struggle against capitalism, nation states, the Western world.
* Then there is the version of Islam espoused by Hamas whereby there is claimed to be a religious duty to wage war against Israel until the state of Israel is destroyed and all Jews killed. This is such an important issue that women may even disobey their husbands in order to fight Israel. Fighting Israel and killing Jews, men, women and children, is acording to Hamas a religious obligation. There is also a call to what Islam (or the Hamas version of it) appears to regard as martyrdom - seeking your own death in order to damage Israel. The Turkish press has reported that at least five of the Turks killed wanted to be "martyrs". This is most disturbing. If the Turkish press is right then we seem to have a ship which included a group of men who were actively seeking their own death and provoking Israel to kill them. In my language these are not martyrs; they are suicide bombers. And if the Turkish press is right that they were seeking "martyrdom" then - in my language - the bombs detonated by their deaths have done enormous damage to Israel.
* We need to bear in mind that the religious beliefs espoused by Hamas are of the nuttiest, and presumably some aboard the flotilla were the nutty group. They aim to bring about a nuclear strike by their ally Iran on Israel. The flotilla has been an effective tool in bringing this catastrophe a bit closer. Turkey has held out against tough sanctions on Iran, so a solution to the Iranian rogue-state problem is that bit less likely.
* There may well have been some misguided individuals aboard the flotilla who actually believed that their actions would help the people of Gaza. Of course their actions have made peace in the Middle East less likely and substantially hurt the people of Gaza.

 

[scotchirish]

The problem with International Law and International investigations is that there is nobody with the authority to enforce them. Sure the UN is supposed to, but nobody truthfully respects them and they have nothing to back themselves up with. We are dealing with sovereign nations. The only true methods countries have of controlling each other is diplomacy, boycotts, or war.

 

[dandelion]

Gaza is run by an Iranian Backed Terrorist group who's sole political aim is 'The Eradication of the state of Israel'. If the blockade were lifted, Hamas would be able to receive more Iranian missles than it currently does and Jerusalem would be flattened - that is why the blockade of Gaza has to remain,......There is no blockade in the West Bank, why? Because Fatah are the government there. They don't launch rockets into Israel, they are peaceful, and the Palestinians in the West Bank enjoy a much greater quality of life because of this. If Israel was anti-palestinian, there would be a similar West Bank blockade.

Just had a quick look at the Israeli settlement policy. wikipedia said israel is still busily expanding into the west bank but has halted settlements in Gaza. You dont suppose there is some relation between the peace in the west bank and Israel steadily stealing the land there, whereas in Gaza where they are still fighting back their land is not being stolen (yet)?

But please don't fall for the lies of the Leftwing-Islamist Press like the BBC.

What, that government mouthpiece the BBC? ??

The 2nd Flotilla, the Irish one, no one died, no one was injured, the boat was escorted to Ashdod and the Aid made it to Gaza. Why was the 1st flotilla so reluctant to an inspection? What were they hiding?

According to the BBC cement for making rockets and guns to fire at Israel.

The boat WAS NOT in international waters, it was in Israeli Waters. There are no International Waters in the Mediterranean, Israeli customs officers were in their right to inspect any ship, and when they boarded the boat, they were clubbed with poles and knives and thrown into the sea! The Israeli army was within its rights to defend itself.

They seized all the film made by those onboard the boats though and only released their own version. Dont you find that a bit odd?

The Future? Do not under estimate the danger than Hamas pose. Iran has a scheme to finish what Hitler started

This has nothing to do with Hitler. But since you mention it, the Nazis also had a plan to encourage as many of those they disliked to leave voluntarily, and then shoot the rest.

My Proposals:
• The Blockade should be managed by UN forces, not israeli ones so no one can blame Israel, and there should be unlimited aid allowed into Gaza by land as long as it is fully inspected.

So they will be allowed as much cement, windows and any other building materials as they want? Machinery, raw materials, freedom of movement? Just what exactly are you trying to stop them getting?

• Gaza and most of the West Bank need to become an independent state, but with control of Army and the Policing given to UN peacekeepers, as the new young weak state would be in danger of being infiltrated by extremists and Iran.

Naturally, Israel would agree to peacekeepers taking control of its armed forces too?

• Jerusalem and part of the West Bank need to become an Independent state, with a joint Israeli-Palestinian government. That is the only way to guarantee everyone's rights to the holy city.

This can only work if both sides have equal rights. They dont currently.

More importantly, we need to remember that all these deaths are lives, in this conflict too often they become numbers.
RIP all those killed in the recent weeks
שלום
מ

Oh come on, neither side cares how many get killed so long as they win.

 

[dandelion]

Hamas are a genocidal, terrorist group whose aim is the "nullification" of Israel and the murder of all Jews. The great sadness is that the people of Gaza have voted for them, just as in the 1930s the people of Germany voted for the Nazis.

I may be wrong, but Germany did not vote for Hitler to become chancellor, He staged a coup because he didnt have enough votes. His behaviour went downhill thereafter, having dispensed with democracy. I also do not recall that when he was elected Germany had enemy soldiers invading it.

The contrast is the West Bank where a much better government is working towards the two state solution.

Two state? you mean the part of the west bank wholly controlled and occupied by Israelis and the part only partially controlled and occupied by them?

Israel has imposed an uneasy truce through the blockade. But this is unsustainable - we all know this.

Its a siege. Theyr only quiet because they are imprisoned.

There was the hope that the people of Gaza would kick out Hamas and become part of a Palestine on track to the two-state solution - and this dream is the big casualty of the flotilla.

No. the flotilla is an international response to Israels siege. I dont doubt the deranged fundamentlist quotient within this siege ring goes up minute by minute. Last thing they will do is kick out Hamas. Would anyone kick out their only hope?

* The idea of the UN administering the blockade (suggested in someone's post above) might be a good one. While a blockade is essential while Hamas are in power, yet it is also clearly wrong - which is presumably why the UN doesn't want to get involved in it. The underlying wrong is Hamas.

That and the fact that the US sides with Israel and isnt going to pay for it or provide any troops.

* Then there's an international force imposing a new regime in Gaza - this might be the best option though hard to see how this could be put together. Of course this would start off as a non democratic solution, then we pray that at a later date the people of Gaza do not vote for genocidal terrorists.

Same problem. An international force would lift the blockade and allow the people to live their properly. This is absolutely what Israel does not want. They are trying to drive them all out.

* Most probably we wait until the situation becomes intolerable then Israel goes in (and the world condemns).

That is their end game, yes. However, they want to get rid of as many people as they can first. It will be ungovernable otherwise and an endless deathtrap.

The consequencies of the flotilla have been a disaster.

Rubbish. Unless you see the only solution is to allow Israel to starve out the locals so they all go away, one way or the other. Israel simply is not willing to accept its official borders. Either you use force to make them, use force to help them expand, or decide to do nothing and let them get on with it. Right now, were using force to help them by supplying weaponry and money.

Just possibly we could try to ignore the issue and pretend that nothing has happened. No more flotillas, no silly inquiries (or at least no reports from inquiries) and we might just muddle on until such a time as the people of Gaza kick out Hamas. But it is as if the whole world is doing its very best to stir up trouble in the Middle East.

Well most of it is. Particularly the US. Because of oil. I still cant comprehend why you think any country will vote against its military when another state just keeps attacking it more. This is contrary to all human behaviour.

 

[dandelion]

Why? Because they are God's chosen people?

I think a claim like that would be enough to tick off just about every member of every other religion which has ever existed, don't you? Happily Im an atheist, so am not offended. But can still get annoyed if religious people come knocking at the door claiming I'm damned unless I give them my support.

 

[callmedafonz]

Bottom line is this, the flotilla was a provocative act which has had the result of destabilising the peace process.

i would strongly disagree....were any weapons found on the flotilla? nope, none. did you ever think that is what isreal really wants, a reason to cause a problem?

think about this....why is it that the majority of the world dislikes the jewish people? let me guess, everyone has it out for them? it has nothing to do with the actions of their people?

its kinda like why does the middle east hate the americans? its not that they hate the people, its that they hate the gov't policies in that region....Isreal is a terroristic country, that handles their actions in the shadows so they are not seem

 

[dandelion]

To be fair to Israel, it is not clear to me whether they are uniquely active in state organised covert (ie illegal) operations, or uniquely open about it.

 

[B_New End]

But Israel didn't get to where it did by holding paramount some set of unrealistic ideals. They got there by being ruthless and pragmatic.

And American weapons and money, and British and French nuclear weapons.

 

[B_New End]

I have no idea why. If I were Jewish, I'd have a chip on my shoulder. No other group in history has been so hated. Yeah, that doesn't make other persecuted groups' plights less serious, but what is about the Jews that elicits such profuse hatred in people?

They have a disproportionate amount of wealth.

 

[dreamer20]

I'm not sure Israel storming a boat is quite comparable to the atrocities perpetrated under Milosevic. :redface:

The U.N.'s human rights experts beg to differ with you as they found the Israeli raid to be totally unnecessary, brutal and atrocious:

U.N. experts: Israel flotilla raid broke int'l law - World news - Mideast/N. Africa - Israel-Palestinians - msnbc.com


GENEVA — A report by three U.N.-appointed human rights experts Wednesday said that Israeli forces violated international law when they raided a Gaza-bound aid flotilla killing nine activists earlier this year.
The U.N. Human Rights Council's fact-finding mission concluded that Israel's naval blockade of the Palestinian territory was unlawful because of the humanitarian crisis there, and described the military raid on the flotilla as brutal and disproportionate...

The 56-page document lists a series of alleged crimes committed by Israeli forces, including willful killing and torture, and claims there is "clear evidence to support prosecutions." It also alleges that Israel violated the right to life, liberty, freedom of expression and the right of captured crew and passengers to be treated with humanity...