It's Not Over For MI & FL

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by Trinity, Mar 28, 2008.

  1. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    DNC Delegate Selection Rules: Florida & Michigan
    True or False?

    1) The DNC Rules state that pledged delegates elected by Florida and Michigan voters must be excluded because those states scheduled primaries before February 5, 2008.

    FALSE: The DNC Delegate Selection Rules explicitly give the Rules and Bylaws Committee and the Credentials Committee ultimate jurisdiction over delegate selection. These committees, each in their independent capacities, can seat the delegates from Michigan and Florida at their discretion.

    2) The mandatory penalty for a state holding a primary before February 5, 2008 is exclusion of that state's delegates from the Democratic National Convention.

    FALSE: The mandatory penalty is exclusion of one half of the offending state's pledged and alternate delegates. Unless otherwise provided, the other half of that state's pledged and alternate delegates will be seated at the convention.

    3) Any attempt to seat 100% of the pledged or unpledged delegates of Florida and Michigan at this point is "changing the rules."

    FALSE: The DNC Rules explicitly contemplate that excluded delegates will eventually be seated at the Convention. For states in violation of the timing rules, the DNC Delegate Selection Rules provide remedies to reinstate all of their delegates, both pledged and unpledged.

    4) Florida is not entitled to reinstatement of its delegates because the Democrats in the Florida State Legislature did not make efforts to keep the state's primary in compliance with DNC Rules.

    FALSE: Evidence that that a Republican majority in the state legislature set the primary date in violation of the DNC timing rules in spite of efforts by the state's Democratic legislators to keep the primary in compliance is grounds for appealing a DNC decision to strip a state of its delegates.
    Though Florida has a 2:1 Republican legislative majority, the DNC Rules & Bylaws Committee ruled that the Democratic minority did not make sufficient efforts to keep the primary date in compliance with DNC Rules. The Florida State Party disputes this factual finding. The State Party argues that the Democrats in the legislature were robbed of meaningful power to stop the Republican effort to set an early primary date because Republicans drafted the controlling legislation and packed it with other unrelated issues which the Democrats in the legislature felt they could not in good conscience oppose.

    5) The DNC Rules & Bylaws Committee has taken action and is unable to change the sanctions imposed on Florida and Michigan.

    FALSE: The Rules and Bylaws Committee has the power to lift any and all automatic sanctions along with the power to impose and modify additional sanctions. The Rules and Bylaws committee also has the power to create its own committee to create an alternative process for delegate selection should the state party not cooperate or be unable to resolve the issue on its own. The Rules and Bylaws Committee failed to use the tools it had to independently resolve the matter in good faith before Florida and Michigan voters went to the polls of the ill timed primaries to express their candidate preference.

    6) Hillary violated the DNC Rules by keeping her name on the Michigan ballot.

    FALSE: Nowhere in the DNC's Delegate Selection Plans is there any suggestion or command that any candidate remove his or her name from a ballot in a state that is in violation of timing rules. This is why Obama and Edwards were on the Florida ballot, in spite of its primary also being before February 5.

    7) Hillary manipulated the process by being the only candidate who kept her name on the Michigan ballot.

    FALSE: Kucinich, Dodd and Gravel also kept their names on the Michigan ballot. In fact the decision of some candidates to remove their names from the Michigan ballot was a tactical move designed to curry favor with Democratic Party officials in Iowa who were concerned that the significance of their first-in-the-nation status was being diminished. The risk paid off handsomely for Obama.

    8) Because Edwards and Obama were not on the Michigan ballot, that election cannot be considered a legitimate expression of voter preference of a presidential candidate.

    FALSE: According to the Delegate Selection Rules & Bylaws, "Delegates shall be allocated in a fashion that fairly reflects the expressed presidential preference or uncommitted status of the primary voters..." The Michigan ballot included an option for "uncommitted" to ensure that voters could express a presidential preference or uncommitted status consistent with this rule. Nothing in the Rules requires a state to allocate delegates to candidates who voluntarily remove their names from the ballot as John Edwards and Barack Obama did.

    9) The primaries in Florida and Michigan are invalid because voters were under informed due to the lack of active campaigning.

    FALSE: Voters in Florida and Michigan were very well informed. They had ample access to newspapers, television, books, radio, and the Internet. They could have availed themselves of over a year of coverage of the 2008 election. They could watch every campaign commercial on YouTube. They had the same opportunity as the rest of America to watch 17 televised debates.

    Moreover, nowhere in the DNC rules does it specify that candidates must campaign directly in a state to make its primary a legitimate expression of voter candidate preference. Voters in Alaska and Hawaii never get visited by the candidates.

    10) All the candidates signed a pledge to the DNC not to campaign in the states violating primary timing.

    FALSE: The candidates signed no such pledge to the DNC.

    11) Hillary violated the rules against campaigning in Florida and Michigan.

    FALSE: Jurisdiction over determinations of whether a candidate shall be considered in violation of the relevant rule (Rule 20 C.1.b.) lies with the Rules and Bylaws Committee. Because the Committee has not ruled against either candidate, it is false to assert that either candidate is in violation.

    12) Hillary signed a pledge that she violated by remaining on the ballot in Florida and Michigan?

    FALSE: The only pledges signed were between the candidates and the state party chairs in Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, and Nevada. More to the point, they were not binding on the DNC, which is the only organization that has authority over seating delegates. Thus, these pledges are not controlling over the seating of Florida and Michigan delegates.

    13) Hillary's activities in Florida and Michigan look suspicious, between fundraising and holding a victory rally in Florida.

    FALSE: Hillary acted well within the letter and spirit of the rules. The rules stipulate that candidates can fundraise in states violating the timing rules and that fundraising activity is not considered impermissible campaigning. Further, the prohibition on campaigning in any state ends as soon as the primary in violation concludes. Hillary's victory party was within the rules because she did not appear at a campaign event in Florida until after the polls closed.

    14) Barack Obama would likely win more delegates if there were a new contest.

    FALSE: The rules provide that a candidate who campaigns or holds press conferences in a state in violation of timing may not receive any of the pledged or unpledged delegates from that state. Because Barack Obama campaigned in Florida when, on Sunday September 30, 2007, he held an impromptu public news conference in Florida, when he bought television advertising time on stations in markets which included much of Florida, and when he ran a campaign in Michigan to encourage voters to vote "uncommitted," Barack Obama may not be entitled to receive any delegates from Florida or Michigan.

    15) Reinstating any of the delegates from either Florida or Michigan would be a travesty against democracy and fair elections. It would be cheating.

    FALSE: There are many good and valid reasons for the DNC to have rules regarding delegate selection timing, but none of these reasons relate to ensuring that primaries accurately reflect voter preference. None of these involve the preservation of democracy.

    Neither Clinton nor Obama has the power to reinstate the delegates unless they already have won 50% plus 1 of the total delegates. Therefore neither has the power to cheat. This matter lies in the hands of the DNC's Rules & Bylaws Committee which is neutral.

    Were Obama to gain control of the Credentials Committee at the DNC, he would have the power to exclude the delegates from Michigan and Florida. That would be a biased effort to disenfranchise two large states. That would be a travesty and one the Republicans could easily exploit in November.

    See the full list here
     
  2. HazelGod

    Gold Member

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    It doesn't matter, Trinity.

    Even in the best possible scenario imaginable for the Clinton campaign, where both FL and MI delegations are seated as-is (not gonna happen), she still
    can't overcome the lead Obama has gathered.

    It's over. She's lost. Start getting used to it.
     
  3. Industrialsize

    Staff Member Moderator Gold Member

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    grasping at straws
     
  4. Industrialsize

    Staff Member Moderator Gold Member

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    Quoting MyDD as the harbinger of facts destroys your credibility....you know it is a rabidly pro hillary website.....that would be like me quoting dailykos.com.........try posting that there and see the response you will get :eek:
     
  5. VeeP

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    Can we just appoint another Republican and move on already? :biggrin1:
     
  6. Industrialsize

    Staff Member Moderator Gold Member

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    No,I'd prefer we didn't......
     
  7. faceking

    faceking Well-Known Member

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    This is great... good to see MI and FL issue(s) get heated up... the Clintons are vicious and won't go down without swinging.
     
  8. HazelGod

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    Apparently, she never goes down...hence the whole Lewinsky affair we had to witness.
     
  9. Industrialsize

    Staff Member Moderator Gold Member

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    Even I'll come to hillary's defense and say that was a little out of line(see trinity..Obama supporters are not monsters)
     
  10. hung9mike

    hung9mike Well-Known Member

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    I am Floridian, a Democrat, and I voted in the primary on January 29. Frankly, I'm offended that once again, my vote is unlikely to mean anything. I'd welcome a revote, but it isn't going to happen because the state has already paid for the one primary it was willing to fund. Now if the DNC and/or either of the two remaining Democratic candidates wishes to have a revote, let them pony up the money for the process. It's their fault we're in this mess in the first place.

    For what it's worth: It is true that there is roughly a 2:1 Republican majority in the Florida Legislature, and we have a Republican governor. The Democrats actually got something they wanted as part of the move to the earlier primary date, which was a paper trail for the electronic voting machines we now use. (It was bundled into the legislation that moved the primary date.) Suffice it to say, it would have been contrary to the Democrats' best interest to have opposed this bill, considering that "W" received more votes than there were registered Republicans in 47 out of 67 Florida counties and overall statewide in the last presidential election. (Wonder how that happens in a closed primary state?)

    And, for what it's worth, I didn't vote for either Hillary or Obama back in January. If Hillary wants a revote, make it happen. Put up the money or shut up. But then, she probably already knows it's not a foregone conclusion that she'd win... or didn't she notice that Obama went on his winning streak after Florida, when Edwards dropped out of the race?
     
  11. D_Roderick Beresford Stiffington IV

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    I read it wrong as...

     
  12. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    Please don't go on the ridiculous side. This is about DNC rules and two states voting in a presidential primary. If the facts are true then what is your problem? You can review the DNC rules yourself.
     
  13. faceking

    faceking Well-Known Member

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    good point that many forget how much it costs to re-do a primary.

    and wow, this has happened before in Florida... don't recall hearing that...
     
  14. HazelGod

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    Why not? You worried about it getting crowded over there? Besides, what's good for the goose should be for the gander, right?

    That's misplaced blame, my friend. Your state legislature and your governor are at fault here. Make them pony up for a re-vote...and I don't mean out of the tax coffers, I mean from their own pockets.
     
  15. faceking

    faceking Well-Known Member

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    The Lewinsky affair is actually somewhat paramount to Hillary's character....

    Either she's a bold-faced politico liar... or she's dumb as sin.... when she accused the whole Monica thing as made up by the Repubs...

    Her husband is a chronic philanderer... the known list is lengthy, much less the affairs we don't know about.

    Maybe it's denial... or maybe she has had the eye on the prize the whole time and sacrifices all morals for it.
     
  16. D_Gunther Snotpole

    D_Gunther Snotpole Account Disabled

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    A good one ... someone feeding you jokes?
    Anyway, her technique is bad.
    Bill told her once, 'Close ... but no cigar.'
     
  17. HazelGod

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    Survey says:

     
  18. D_Gunther Snotpole

    D_Gunther Snotpole Account Disabled

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    Ah, 'survey'?
     
  19. HazelGod

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    Not a big fan of Family Feud, I take it?
     
  20. naughty

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    Workin' up a good pot of mad!

    You are VERY bad. I shouldnt have been over here laughing, but I was....
     
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