Jay Leno? I'm not laughing.

[Dr Rock]

As long as members of the majority are less free to make fun of minorites (or call them names) than vice versa there can be no equality.

that's right. fuck the "majority": if they weren't such stupid, worthless oxygen thieves then "minorities" wouldn't have problems in the first place. minorities are "in need of protection" precisely because the overwhelming majority of human beings cannot be trusted to respect each other, let alone anyone who's "different" in any way.

personally, i won't be satisfied until every straight, white, middle-class christian is sitting at the back of the bus, walking in the gutter, and generally living in fear for their life and livelihood every day.

I do not see anything humerous or entertaining about him

oh cmon, his chin is pretty fuckin funny

 

[mindseye]

Where 'thinly-veiled' racism is decried as heinous (as well it should be), the fervor to decry its companion, homophobia, is far less heralded as the "stuff" of condemnation.

Oh, Mary, please. You're demanding a tourniquet for a paper cut.

I've given your single-issue mania way more attention than it deserves. I'll oppose homophobia where it exists -- the University of the Cumberlands, which expelled a student this month for having come out on his online blog; the US military, where a soldier testified today she was coerced into not reporting an assault because she was a lesbian. I'm not going to get the vapors over a two-month-ago joke on TV and start comparing it to the holocaust.

I'm ashamed for your lack of perspective, and for my allowing you to have baited me this long.

 

[dolf250]

By example: Were Leno to make "Amos and Andy" type references to blacks or laundry references to the Chinese I suspect we'd see much more of the heterosexual audience take issue. But after all it's just those silly fairies anyway and everyone knows they're superfluous, right? What's a little good humor among the "good old boys"? No harm done, eh?

I agree that he would not get away with it were he to make “Amos and Andy” references. Perhaps in 50 years a comedian will get booed if they reference sexual orientation. As it stands the majority of his audience approves of his humour. I was not saying that he should feel free to make fun of gay men because “after all it's just those silly fairies anyway and everyone knows they're superfluous.” I only have so much outrage to go around and lately I have been spending it on some of the Harper governments’ decisions. (I voted conservative and wanted him in, but some of his recent decisions have left me feeling a little disheartened and disillusioned.) If Leno’s poor humour upsets you then feel free to be mad, but don’t expect me to share the same level of outrage. I already do not watch the man but I will not be writing letters to him nor will I be asking friends to avoid him- I would rather the people I know ask the Prime Minister why the members who we elected are no longer allowed to make comments without his approval (sounds like a dictatorship, doesn’t it- control the flow of information.)

Check or no check, his reputation is based on decency and fair play. I've noticed that he appeals to a very low common denominator generally. His comic debasing of homosexuals (men it seems only) is not in the least amusing to me as a homosexual man.

His reputation amongst people who can think for themselves may be bad, but amongst his audience (most of whom probably are doubled over laughing at the homosexual jokes) his reputation is doing just fine. So long as his reputation with his viewers is not put at risk he is not likely to give a damn what you or I think of him.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1563328/posts

Dolf? This is what people like me are up against. Read those comments and tell me I'm over-reacting.

I agree completely that the content in that thread is contemptible. I would not presume to argue with you for so much as a second that there are people out there who detest gay men. Being as I almost never catch so much as the opening monologue of Leno’s I cannot say weather what he promotes is hatred, or if it is meant as a joke. Provided it is not ravenously mean I would presume that it is meant as a joke (in much the same way as he may poke fun of lawyers or fat people.) I do not say that you need to support him and anyone can feel free to ask that people do not watch his show in protest. However, I would think that most of his audience would just keep watching anyhow. I can direct you to a hundred such threads about Jews and Muslims- you are not alone suffering a percentage of the general populations hatred. A co-worker of mine lives in a lower income neighbourhood that is dominated by East Indian people. Her 6 year old son was recently told on the bus to “get out of here and go to your own neighbourhood.” (meaning a white area.) Apparently this was not the first nor last time his skin colour has been a problem. Hatred is everywhere- yes, you are far more likely to suffer it (as is a Jew, Black man or person of Chinese decent) than a white 6 year old boy, but it is still everywhere and against everyone.

In much the same way as I do not understand how Jerry Springer made a career out of his material I do not understand why Leno is paid millions for his. But the fact remains that each show has an audience and makes money for the networks, the producers, the writers and the stars. Until that changes the fights between lovers will continue on Springer and the jokes (some of which will be in very poor taste) will continue on Leno, Letterman and the comedy channel. If you want people to stop watching you need to change society, not the mouthpiece. Demand that people complete kindergarten (that should remove Springer’s audience) and then demand that people go out and live a life outside of their comfort zones (that should take care the stupidity and bigotry that still exists against EVERY group.) I said it last post and I will say it again- his cheque is based on ratings. It would be nice if people such as him would take a stand (not just on this issue, but on many others as well) but there will always be somebody who will say anything or do anything for a million more.

 

[hunGreek]

my oppinion on gay satire...

its always better to be sarcastic on a group you belong.. for example i dont find jack from "will and grace" insulting cause i know the actor is gay and the whole shows promotes equality. on the other hand, concerning jay lenno(i havent seen any of his shows ever, i just know him by appearance) i can say that if he wants to make jokes about gays ok.. i would sincerely hope that he would do jokes about aaany other minority such as mexicans,short people,black people,poor people, blind people, dumb blondes, stupid st8 men etc etc etc.. and most importantly i would hope that besides the jokes, once in a while he would invite an out politician/singer/actor and do a decent chat with them. just to balance the scales

 

[Lex]

I think that the subtle danger in a comedian like Leno doing jokes ad nauseum is that fact that he is SO ubiquitous that it can give the perception that what he is saying or joking about is an acceptable viewpoint (or at least, a non-offensive one).

I agree with Sorceror that there are far more offensive comedians: Rock, Griffith, Cho. Theya re also all FAR funnier than Leno. I think the difference here is that under their really harsh words and biting humor are crystal clear diamonds of truth that people just aren't always ready to talk about, so we joke about them.

Mindseye--thanks for challenging the letter. If nothing else, your "upset" allowed you to share 2 news stories that had escaped me (THANKS) as I never watch the news, etc.

Even if we don't agree with the letter, its target, or its craft--I think the overall point it attempts to elucidate--"Why are homophobic jokes acceptable still?" is a great discussion point.

 

[B_Stronzo]

I agree that he would not get away with it were he to make “Amos and Andy” references. Perhaps in 50 years a comedian will get booed if they reference sexual orientation. As it stands the majority of his audience approves of his humour.

Thanks for all the thoughtful things you've written Dolph.. really.

But this is precisely the problem. I'm not complacent enough to wait those 50 years.

Unless people like "Frenchy" (that letter's author) as 'diva-like' as some find him continue to say stop we're destined to be made a characterization of ourselves. I'll address it wherever I see it for the overt slander it is be it in public, in my circle of friends, on the small screen, or on this board.

Oh, Mary, please. You're demanding a tourniquet for a paper cut.

Now who's the 'drama queen'? 'Paper cuts' when left untended can get infected. As much as you'd diminish the impact of that ugly fucker, he reaches a rather (albeit idiotic) vast audience. I don't count him out for "nothin".

The phrase 'Oh, Mary please' puts you precisely in that category from which I'd like to extricate all thinking gay men. Dude? That shit's old.

I've given your single-issue mania way more attention than it deserves.

Which, of course, leaves me wondering why you're still defending your incomprehensible laissez-faire stance... :33:

I'm ashamed for your lack of perspective, and for my allowing you to have baited me this long.

Shit. You're pissed. Woops, sorry. But we all choose our battles. This one's mine and if you think your time's wasted here 'Mary':wink: write a letter to your Congressman over that lesbian you want to champion.

 

[Matthew]

So, anybody know any hetero jokes?

So of course the reason I asked this because there really aren't any, and that's part of the problem here. Gay jokes, at least in this case, allow some straight people to revel in their sense of themselves as superior beings by laughing at demeaning stereotypes of queers. There isn't any equivalent that allows gays to say "oh well, you laugh at us, we laugh at you, it's all good."

That said, I agree with Pecker that life is better when you can take a joke. There are a lot of battles for gay people in this world, and personally, I don't have much energy for somebody like Jay Leno. He bores the crap out of me and I don't give two shits what he's talking about. In general, I support anyone who is challenging stereotypes about gays, but my support is more reserved if the 'challenger' is somehow not seeing the big picture.

Finally, from my vantage point, it's a virtue to be more concerned about the things that harm others (things in which I myself may be complicit) than about the wrongs done by those who have trespassed against me.

 

[GBB]

You know what though?

Any attention paid to a celebrety positive or negative is good for his bank account.

The best way to hurt him is to ignore him entirely.

 

[GoneA]

That said, I agree with Pecker that life is better when you can take a joke.

Agreed. I think Jay Leno (or his writers) is/are only aiming for entertainment value; I doubt he's trying to influence the masses. I suppose it'd do everyone a world of good to understand that Mr. Leno is taking cheap-shots to appease his audience ... and at the end of the day, I think that's all it means to his entire studio.

Besides, I don't think Jay Leno is actually swaying is audience one way or the other. And, if anyone did formulate their ideas of people based on what a late-night, comedic, talk-show host has said, they’re almost certainly too dense to hold an intellectual conversation and should be snuffed-out in some very inglorious manner.

 

[jeff black]

Don't storm my castle here boys....

But isn't bad publicity better than none? If no one was talking about homosexuality, whether in jest or seriousness, no one would know about it, or learn to be ok with it.

Having Jay leno joke around gets people talking, and people begin to accept homosexuality just as they do with other topics, that were once contraversial.

 

[D_alex8]

Don't storm my castle here boys....

But isn't bad publicity better than none? If no one was talking about homosexuality, whether in jest or seriousness, no one would know about it, or learn to be ok with it.

Having Jay leno joke around gets people talking, and people begin to accept homosexuality just as they do with other topics, that were once contraversial.

That's the whole point I made above about every discourse also engendering its own counter-discourse ... but as I also noted, that is more incidental than intentional. To cite just one example on which plentiful research has been done*: the negative publicity surrounding several prominent cases of aristocrats being charged with homosexual acts during the 1910s in Germany in fact did much to disseminate information about homosexuality, and to give a name to feelings that many had had yet never been able to define. This was surely never the German Judiciary's aim, but it was a positive consequence... however, at the same time, it also reinforced homophobic notions in some who already had such sentiments... and I think that is the whole issue with Leno... that by showing the telling of (anti)-gay jokes as "simply the norm", he is implicitly giving this (commonplace) practice the "ok", and indeed reinforcing it.



* see for example, John Fout, "Sexual Politics in Wilhelmine Germany: The Male Gender Crisis, Moral Purity, and Homophobia" in Journal of the History of Sexuality 2.3 (1992)

 

[DC_DEEP]

So, anybody know any hetero jokes?

Yeah... what do you call two straight buddies who won't have sex with each other? Sober!

What's the difference between a straight guy and a bi guy? about a six-pack.


Seriously, though, folks... several of the posts have been somewhat defensive, saying "well, I don't necessarily think Leno is a bigot, he just does it for laughs." Ok, so if I'm not a racist, but I'm around a group of redneck racists and I tell nigger jokes to get a laugh, what does that make me?

I don't stand idly by and listen to people do that kind of stuff in my presence. I let them know that it's unacceptable, and I put some distance between me and them. I do not tolerate bigotry. Unfortunately, I usually put myself in considerable physical danger by doing so, because it is usually just me and the group with differing opinions. Fortunately, I'm big and tough enough to be able to take care of myself in most situations.

 

[Pecker]

It's a shame that we can't laugh at ourselves anymore.

 

[naughty]

It's a shame that we can't laugh at ourselves anymore.

"Ourselves" is the operative word . Most have no problem cracking jokes about others but let it happen to them and honey you have never heard such a fuss...

 

[B_Stronzo]

"Ourselves" is the operative word . Most have no problem cracking jokes about others but let it happen to them and honey you have never heard such a fuss...

Agreed naughty.

As I stated in an earlier post on this thread I have no problem with Logo channel's poking fun at gay folks. Since it's gay comedians it's fine and I recognize the commonalities and familiarities. Only another gay person who's a comedian could spin into humor that which in another venue might be construed as offensive.

However it stops there. When "dopey" in the form of Jay Leno takes pot shots at diminishment in the name of broad humor I say "no way Jay". Out of bounds. Jay's half Italian and half Scottish. Let's tease him about his ancestors wearing skirts to put into question his masculinity and see how that 'hits' home.

It's identical to race respect. There's simply no difference in application of the rule of thumb.

Seriously, though, folks... several of the posts have been somewhat defensive, saying "well, I don't necessarily think Leno is a bigot, he just does it for laughs." Ok, so if I'm not a racist, but I'm around a group of redneck racists and I tell nigger jokes to get a laugh, what does that make me?

I don't stand idly by and listen to people do that kind of stuff in my presence. I let them know that it's unacceptable, and I put some distance between me and them. I do not tolerate bigotry. Unfortunately, I usually put myself in considerable physical danger by doing so, because it is usually just me and the group with differing opinions. Fortunately, I'm big and tough enough to be able to take care of myself in most situations.

I hear that DC. I've been in precisely that spot. I've got a wiry build but I don't give a shit. When I think something's unfair or unjust I'll state it and take the consequences. Last week my boyfriend and I were out to supper and the guy in the couple (hetero) with whom we were dining used that word to describe our waiter who was black. I brought the table (and the evening) to an abrupt halt by saying: "Gee Evan, I wonder what you call us behind our backs.."

Shut him the fuck up however.

 

[jeremyA]

wasn't leno the guy who suggested that Clinton should have been assinated and the FBI refused to prosecute him?
It was either him or some other fat neo-nazi halfwit twat.

 

[sundayssad]

Nothing is sacred. Nothing. Religion, race, sexual preference, whatever. It's all fair game. It's when people hate and hurt when it's a problem (could I sound like a bigger hippie right now?).

Chances are if Jay in fact read the letter and he is the bigot that the author says he is, he'd probably think, "Fucking queen.." and send it straight to his garbage. It wouldn't change his mind and it might give him great material (for a change).

If you don't like Jay's "gay-bashing" jokes, change the channel. If you hear the same insipid jokes on the street, don't listen and keep walking. Let the morons revel in their stupidity. It's not your job to enlighten idiots. Because they won't understand. You'd probably have better luck trying to convince a brick wall to have a three way with you and a blind puppy.

All I know is that it's hard to call Jay Leno, bigot or no, a comedian. Bugger ain't funny.

 

[RocketMan]

Agreed. I think Jay Leno (or his writers) is/are only aiming for entertainment value; I doubt he's trying to influence the masses. I suppose it'd do everyone a world of good to understand that Mr. Leno is taking cheap-shots to appease his audience ... and at the end of the day, I think that's all it means to his entire studio.

I think the bottom line is Leno plays to a cookie-cutter audience with no persuasive intent whatsoever...evident by the show's elementary content. It would be nice if those with such broad exposure chose a higher road of integrity from time to time. What really makes the difference is a deeply profound life experience, the likes of which Mr. Leno does not appear to have yet encountered on the sexual orientation front, perhaps involving a dear friend or loved one. The kind of experience that awakens a painful moment or occasion too personally sensitive to ever risk misinterpretation and offense. Then, he himself may author a letter of protest as was done to him. I applaud all efforts to object to that which offends. There are lessons there. Hasn't everyone felt the sting of an inappropriate attempt at humor at one time or another? I think most know what it's like. It certainly does not make it right. Perhaps it's a constant reminder that everyone needs to stop and think about what they're saying from time to time.

I think one's ability to laugh at oneself is often measured by the extent he's dealt with his own painful experience(s).

 

[steve2727]

So, anybody know any hetero jokes?

'It's blatantly obvious Michelangelo was gay. If he was straight the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel would have been painted white, with a roller' :tongue:

 

[D_alex8]

'It's blatantly obvious Michelangelo was gay. If he was straight the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel would have been painted white, with a roller' :tongue:

I bet that has them rolling in the aisles at the Vatican.