Jerry Falwell Dies

[YourAvgGuy]

Maybe I sound negative, but I truly did loath the messages that Farwell sent and imbedded into the minds of "Christian" folk. My family converted to Christianity when I was 13 (we had always practiced traditional Native American spirituality). His unsubtle messages were the driving force behind how many people, especially in the 80's, started to view religion. And, I must say, the views and practical nature of it was like another language to me. Yet, my parents "belived" and supported that cause.

I lived through the torment of having - "you'll die and go to hell," and "this is God's punishment for gays," and "Jews turned their back on one of their own... the true Messiah..." for years... Maybe once Robertson and some of the others are "called and swept away" we begin to accept people for being people and embrace the unique diversity each of us have to offer.

Come on... enough is enough.

Oh, and I still say God punished him for not paying enough tithe and offering. Hell, if only he would have he would still be sucking up oxygen and condemning us all to hell... Oh wait... YAY... he's not! Burn, baby, burn.....................

Oh, one last thing... this is not HATE.. it is simply me articulating the direct and indirect trauma afflicted towards me and my family. God I hope it is not generational........

 

[Freddie53]

Hate never has helped anyone. I despised the agenda of Jerry Faldown,um I mean Jerry Falwell. I could go on and list the entire list, but you all know the list as well as I do.

I try not to hate the man though. I try to separate my feelings of hate for his agenda from having feelings of hate toward him personally.

To actually hate the man puts me as no better than Jerry Falwell. To let his satanic agenda cause me to actually hate him allows Jerry Falwell to win. It allows hate to win. Hate is the cause of so much of the trouble here on earth. It is what drives so many wars.

I refuse to hate the man himself. But again I despised his agenda and am glad that it is finally splitting apart.

I want God to forgive me for my sins and let me live in heaven. I suppose that if that is what I want for me I have to wish the same for every other human being even Jerry Falwell. I hope by now God has shown him the error of his ways while here on earth.

 

[mindseye]

To actually hate the man puts me as no better than Jerry Falwell.

I disagree with this, Freddie. For me to hate Jerry Falwell, is an evaluation of an individual based directly on the characteristics and actions of that individual. This was an individual who claimed that I wanted to kill you, that I was responsible for 9/11, and that I deserved to contract AIDS.

Conversely, Jerry Falwell was someone who passed judgement over entire groups of people, and condemned every individual within those groups to that judgement without any consideration at all given to the individual.

Hating Jerry Falwell doesn't put a person on the same level as Jerry Falwell; merited hatred of an individual is not a form of bigotry.

 

[B_Lightkeeper]

I could care less about his "dong." I'm just glad he's gone.
Now if Fred Phelps was next!

 

[Freddie53]

I disagree with this, Freddie. For me to hate Jerry Falwell, is an evaluation of an individual based directly on the characteristics and actions of that individual. This was an individual who claimed that I wanted to kill you, that I was responsible for 9/11, and that I deserved to contract AIDS.

Conversely, Jerry Falwell was someone who passed judgement over entire groups of people, and condemned every individual within those groups to that judgement without any consideration at all given to the individual.

Hating Jerry Falwell doesn't put a person on the same level as Jerry Falwell; merited hatred of an individual is not a form of bigotry.

You have a very good point Mindseye. I prefer to hate the actions of the person. I don't believe that hating a another person for any reason is a virtue. However, it is a human trait. I have known people who really hated a person for raping them or other horrible things and have them tell that emotionally they felt better once they let the hatred go.

Jerry Falwell deserves to be hated. No question about that. I refuse to let Jerry Falwell change who I am though. Though I am willing to change my political agenda on how to defeat people like him.

I can't say whether he was a true Christian or not. For Christians, that is supposed to be left up to God to decide according to the Bible.

I can agree with everything you said. He used the Christian faith to push his political agenda which is diametrically opposed to everything I believe and stand for.

Jerry Falwell - hate the person
Freddie - love the person
Jerry Falwell - scorn those who he believes are sinners.
Freddie - love all people. All people are sinners that is we miss the mark of being perfect. Perfection is something to hope for and strive to attain. It is impossible to completely achieve in this life.

Jerry Falwell - Try to make people conform to his set of values
Freddie - Believes consenting adults have the moral authority to make those judgements themselves. For those who are Christians God and God alone has the authority to judge people.

I despise Jerry Falwell. I don't hate him. However, it may all be just a matter of semantics and how we personally define hate and despise. To me hate means I really want Farewell to burn in hell forever Despise means I hate being around him or hearing him, but don't wish such a punishment to him. Though I want him and his agenda to fail.

Mindeye, I admit that part of me want to hate Jerry Falwell. But part of me believes that to hate Jerry Faldwell is to let the hatred that was in Jerry Faldwell now become hatred in me. I want let that happen even though Jerry Faldwell deserves to be hated for many reasons.

 

[madame_zora]

Mindseye made the point I wanted to make- hating someone based on their behavior is not bigotry! He behaved as a bigot, so he was. He was a judgemental fuck, and if we don't start publicly renouncing judgemental fucks, and point out publicly that they can't be "Christian" because Christ himself renounced this behavior, they will completely ruin anything of value that could be gleaned from the religion.

I'm not a Christian. I don't give two shits or a cold fuck if anyone accuses me of being "unchristian", it's a non-insult to me. Yeah, so what? I have some enduring fondness for a lifestyle I once enjoyed, and some respect for the figure known to me a Jesus Christ. I am not beholden to that in any way, but I won't let someone who slammed the works of Jesus at every turn of the road pass himself off as a Christian when he's really just a hypocrite. Christianity deserves better representation than that, and if it can't come up with better representation, it would be better for everyone in the world if it just disbanded. Sorry, but I'm really tired of the horrors and atrocities being committed in the name of religions (ALL of them, yes even YOURS!) and the practitioners of said saying this kind of stupid shit, about them just being misguided, but still men of God.

Don't forget to fuck yourselves.

Evil men commit evil acts for reasons like greed, and lust for power. I'm sorry you're too much of a pussy to point it out, I am not. What of your God, how does He feel?

What is this HORSEPISS about not speaking ill of the dead? They don't get sainted because they croak! Grow up people, this isn't kindergarten. If people can DO horrific things, then they are not immune from someone spitting on their grave. Freedom of speech works BOTH ways, not just for the ones who want to hide behind their religious shields. I respect them far less than the ones who just boldly rob and lie.

Christians claim moral superiority, I want to see some of it before I give ANY respect for this group of hoodlums and frauds. What I really want is to see the collossal damage done to my government my Falwell and friends to be UNDONE, mocked and I want to have all of America understand why this can never happen again.

I'm just getting started. Now might be a good time to put me on ignore if you don't want to hear it.

 

[Lordpendragon]

As far as taking sides, I am with MZ. I think the above is one of your best ever posts BTW - coherent and impassioned, and far be it from me to kiss your arse, that is a rare combination.

I will not dismiss Onslow's honestly held opinion though.

I have many fantastic christian friends, my main problem is though how easily they forgive/accomodate anyone who appears to bend the knee or bow the head in church, irrespective of the facts that they know about them outside - a tolerance they do not afford the likes of me.

 

[Deno]

tinky winky can go on with his life now.

what was he 61 years old, yeah someone was looking out for him alright.

 

[D_Harry_Crax]

I was definitely no fan of Falwell's beliefs, but I would also like to believe that we are more noble, as people, if we forgive.
Falwell's views about gays - i.e. "AIDS is God's punishment for homosexuality" - was just bred from ignorance during the '80s.

I'm sorry, but giving a man such as Reagan a pass for being "ignorant" is not reasonable. Reagan had a college degree from back when they meant something. He had a long career doing a variety of things, including president of a union. He then was governor of California for 8 years and ran for president who remembers how many times. Men like Reagan have the opportunity, the need, the resources, and also should have the desire to NOT be ignorant about major public policy issues, including public health issues. For Reagan to have been as ignorant as he seems to have been on AIDS, one could easily argue that he intentionally tried to stay as ignorant as possible on it. I am sick and tired of various ignorant and incompetent politicians making important decisions for the rest of us (starting with the current presidential imbecile), and much of the public thinking it is OK for them to be "learning on the job." As I have previously advocated, let's elect governors, senators, presidents, and judges who will know what they're doing from the minute they take office.

 

[B_Christofferb]

Some of the responses to this thread really sicken me. Sure, Mr. Falwell was not one that the gay/lesbian/transexual community adored. I am no angel, nor am I someone to tell people what to do or say. But I was raised to respect the dead. You guys who say "thank god this man has died" and those of who who have a deathwish for someone ought to be ashamed of yourselves. For goodness sake - show respect for a fallen human being.

 

[madame_zora]

Some of the responses to this thread really sicken me. Sure, Mr. Falwell was not one that the gay/lesbian/transexual community adored. I am no angel, nor am I someone to tell people what to do or say. But I was raised to respect the dead. You guys who say "thank god this man has died" and those of who who have a deathwish for someone ought to be ashamed of yourselves. For goodness sake - show respect for a fallen human being.

Why? I'm not being impudent, I really just want to know why.

 

[JustAsking]

I think the problem with Falwell was that he became basically a politician who used a questionable and controversial form of religion to achieve nasty political goals. There's nothing religious about being liberal toward the rich and powerful, and conservative toward the weak or the despised.

There is also nothing religious about avoiding reality. If something is not real, it can't be sacred. Falwell encouraged people to avoid reality when it came to gays, and instead did something very unamerican and non-religious. He encouraged them to give into prejudice and bigotry, and made a hell of a lot of money doing it.

I have a hard time remembering a single great religious figure, in any religious tradition, who did that.

The man was a disgrace to the US, and a disgrace to the religious figures he claimed to follow. He used both the US and religion to suit himself, to the extent that he could profit from one or both.

Maybe I am out of step, but if I really love somebody, or a country, or even a religious tradition, the first question I have is not how and whether I can use them to make myself look good, or to make money at their expense. I can't see anything religious or patriotic or even decent in that.

So for me, it's not a question of forgiveness. It's a question of justice, and of undoing some of the damage that guy and his followers did to others, and to the political system in the US. You don't "forgive" a virus that causes an epidemic, or a hurricane after the damage is done. You simply clean up the mess, and try to lessen the risk of it happening again in the future.

What he said.

Bigotry, hate, and advocating for the restriction of civil rights for any marginalized group is never worthy of respect. The fact that it was wrapped in the guise of Christianity doesn't make it any less heinous. In fact it makes it more heinous.

I pray Mr. Falwell has ended his time of "seeing through a glass darkly", and now is able to see "face to face".

 

[mindseye]

But I was raised to respect the dead.

I've heard this line of reasoning before, and rebut it:

1. Being truthful isn't necessarily a form of disrespect. I could fake sorrow for his death, but I'm choosing to be honest. We haven't falsely accused him of causing 9/11.
2. The idea that people can't say negative things about the deceased is ludicrous. Pol Pot, Hitler, Pinochet, Mao Zedong, not to mention John Wilkes Booth, Lee Harvey Oswald, Timothy McVeigh, Jim Jones, Jack the Ripper -- all of these people are still dead. Are we not allowed to honestly discuss their awful contributions to history either?
3. During his lifetime, Jerry Falwell defended the actions of Fred Phelps. In a PBS interview he called Phelps a "nut", but said he didn't "hurt each other or anybody". Surely it's unfair to apply a double-standard to his own passing.
4. Finally, it's far more important to respect the living than to respect the dead -- and that simple and obvious principle repudiates everything Jerry Falwell ever stood for. Respecting the living requires showing acceptance for Muslims, atheists, women, homosexuals, and teletubbies.

 

[Freddie53]

Mindseye made the point I wanted to make- hating someone based on their behavior is not bigotry! He behaved as a bigot, so he was. He was a judgemental fuck, and if we don't start publicly renouncing judgemental fucks, and point out publicly that they can't be "Christian" because Christ himself renounced this behavior, they will completely ruin anything of value that could be gleaned from the religion.

I'm not a Christian. I don't give two shits or a cold fuck if anyone accuses me of being "unchristian", it's a non-insult to me. Yeah, so what? I have some enduring fondness for a lifestyle I once enjoyed, and some respect for the figure known to me a Jesus Christ. I am not beholden to that in any way, but I won't let someone who slammed the works of Jesus at every turn of the road pass himself off as a Christian when he's really just a hypocrite. Christianity deserves better representation than that, and if it can't come up with better representation, it would be better for everyone in the world if it just disbanded. Sorry, but I'm really tired of the horrors and atrocities being committed in the name of religions (ALL of them, yes even YOURS!) and the practitioners of said saying this kind of stupid shit, about them just being misguided, but still men of God.

Don't forget to fuck yourselves.

Evil men commit evil acts for reasons like greed, and lust for power. I'm sorry you're too much of a pussy to point it out, I am not. What of your God, how does He feel?

What is this HORSEPISS about not speaking ill of the dead? They don't get sainted because they croak! Grow up people, this isn't kindergarten. If people can DO horrific things, then they are not immune from someone spitting on their grave. Freedom of speech works BOTH ways, not just for the ones who want to hide behind their religious shields. I respect them far less than the ones who just boldly rob and lie.

Christians claim moral superiority, I want to see some of it before I give ANY respect for this group of hoodlums and frauds. What I really want is to see the collossal damage done to my government my Falwell and friends to be UNDONE, mocked and I want to have all of America understand why this can never happen again.

I'm just getting started. Now might be a good time to put me on ignore if you don't want to hear it.

This may just be a matter of choice of words. I despised Jerry Falwell and his death didn't make me despise him any less. I made fun of him at every turn. Now that he is dead, I don't see any reason to change how I feel about the man. I was just taught not to use the word hate to describe anyone no matter how horrible they are. It comes from my upbringing which is cultural I know. No doubt though I hated with a passion everything Falwell stood for.

I am a Christian. According to my Christian beliefs, Jesus himself will judge Falwell. As for me, I believe Zora who says she isn't a Christian will be going to heaven. Falwell I have my doubts. I'm sure Jesus was not amused in heaven watching some jackass hijack what he taught.

Please don't take my Christianity to believe that I can just roll over and say it was OK. No it was not OK what he did. After I first heard him many years ago before the Moral Majority, he was on my ignore list on TV. I never listened to what that jackass had to say. It was hard enough just to read about it in the paper. He was a buffoon, a braggart, and an out and out liar.

Falwell hijacked my religion, made a mockery of it and everything that Zora says that he did is true.

We all come from different systems in how to deal with the likes of Falwell. Don't think for a minute that it is easy to not have great hate for the man. I'm having to work hard. And maybe in reality I am only deceiving myself. But at least I am trying to not be like him and spew nothing but hate into the world.

I'm glad that we won't have to deal with him anymore. But I'm afraid that the icon that the fundies will make him to be may be worse than the Falwell that was alive.

Please don't get the fundies and mainline Christians confused. While both claim to be Christian, the fundies are totally different breed and bear little resemblance to mainline Christians except both claim to follow Jesus. Take a New Testament and read just the first four gospels about Jesus and tell me which group seems to really follow Jesus. I can tell you ahead of time that it won't be Falwell and his supporters.

I'm trying to really be Christian by not hating him. I will admit that this is very difficult. I've seen fine young people go to "his" college and come away completely warped in their thinking.

I'm sorry some of you have taken what I have said to think that I am in anyway defending the man, especially Mindseye and Zora.

If there is a real hell which I really don't believe, and Jesus sentences Falwell to spend eternity there. I'm not going to feel sorry for him. If anyone earned a place in hell, Falwell did.

If I appear to be speaking out of both sides of my mouth to anyone, I am. There is the Freddie that I try to be and really believe that I should be. Then there is the Freddie that is human and has human emotions. The two Freddies are real, but sometimes there is a battle in Freddie's soul for which one wins. When it comes to people like Falwell, it is a royal battle.

Mindseye, Falwell was in your backyard there in Virginia. It is understandable how total dislike can turn into hatred for a person. That is a human emotion. And emotions are very real. Unlike me, you probably know some people personally that Falwell and his cronies screwed up permanently. I never said that Falwell doesn't deserve to be hated.

I did say that to forgive is to be forgiven. I can forgive. I can't forget. Humans can't forget. And the forgiveness we can give today has to be repeated. I do believe if we can give the hate away, we will feel better. And I do believe that. We as humans are happier when we don't have to carry a lot of hate baggage around. It hurts us more than anyone.

But saying that and doing that are two entirely different things. Sometimes we just can't give the hate away. Had I been through what Mindseye had been through, I may not be able to give the hate away either, not now. Maybe later.

I had someone to terribly hurt me years ago. I hated this man for ten years. One day I finally gave up the hate after battling it for ten years and I did feel better. But it took me ten years to do it.

Please understand that what I believe we should do and what we are capable to doing is not always the same thing. Human emotions are like that. Humans can't forget and that makes forgiveness very difficult to do. What we forgave yesterday is right back in our face again the next day.

I have the greatest respect for Mindseye. No I don't think he is perfect. I'm not either, far from it. But Mindseye is no where close to being a bigot. Not even on the radar. I consider Mindseye to be a friend for whom I have the greatest respect. And Zora is my "second" sister.

 

[mindseye]

This may just be a matter of choice of words. I despised Jerry Falwell and his death didn't make me despise him any less. I made fun of him at every turn. Now that he is dead, I don't see any reason to change how I feel about the man. I was just taught not to use the word hate to describe anyone no matter how horrible they are.

What's the difference between "despising" someone and "hating" them? When I use these words, "despising" is at least as intense as hatred. I might say, "yuck, I hate broccoli", and also say that "I despise mushrooms", which one do I have the greater aversion towards?

If this is a matter of word choice, and the h-word is offensive to you, then I apologize for having used it. I'm entirely comfortable using words like "detest" or "loathe" instead.

 

[Freddie53]

What's the difference between "despising" someone and "hating" them? When I use these words, "despising" is at least as intense as hatred. I might say, "yuck, I hate broccoli", and also say that "I despise mushrooms", which one do I have the greater aversion towards?

If this is a matter of word choice, and the h-word is offensive to you, then I apologize for having used it. I'm entirely comfortable using words like "detest" or "loathe" instead.

Thans Mindseye. No apology needed. It is lot like when growing up I got spanked for saying shit but it was ok to say poo poo. I do think hate may be a stronger word than despise, It is a lot like very large, gigantic, huge. Is there a stair step going from light to heavy? Don't know. We learn more about ourselves thorugh life's adventures.

Maybe we all learned somethiing about ourselves during all of this. Again my fear is that Jerry Falwell will become even a larger figure in death then he was in life. Damn that would be a horrific tragedy. Falwell from the grave for President. I'm getting ill thinking about it.

 

[Chuck64]

Christofferb - He was an evil human being and not worthy of my respect - not then, not now, not ever. I will not censor myself in a discussion about a man who's life-purpose was spreading hate and spewing filthy lies about me, my loved ones, and my religion.

He regularly twisted reality and manipulated the media to suit his political needs. Teletubbies make kids gay? If that wasn't whoring for media attention, tell me what is.

Posting my views about Falwell on this board has absolutely nothing to do with Jerry Falwell. This is solely for the members who feel the need to defend him.

 

[Freddie53]

Christofferb - He was an evil human being and not worthy of my respect - not then, not now, not ever. I will not censor myself in a discussion about a man who's life-purpose was spreading hate and spewing filthy lies about me, my loved ones, and my religion.

He regularly twisted reality and manipulated the media to suit his political needs. Teletubbies make kids gay? If that wasn't whoring for media attention, tell me what is.

Posting my views about Falwell on this board has absolutely nothing to do with Jerry Falwell. This is solely for the members who feel the need to defend him.

I couldn't agree with you more in the bold sentence.

Yes he hijacked a religion. He wasn't the first and he won't be the last, unfortunately.

 

[B_Christofferb]

As far as the responses go to my recent reply to this thread; I should explain myself.

I am not saying to respect the man, I am saying to respect the death of a human being - there is a difference. If you respect a man, you respect the individual. If you respect the death of a human being, then you are respecting the natural cause of dying. I did not agree with his views, but just because I disliked him, does not mean I am going to parade around and say "Thank god he is dead." I just find it very immoral.

 

[Dave NoCal]

Christiaan wrote:

Falwell was a right, fucking asshole. A sorry toad of a man who seized on flash point issues such as agay rights and abortion to suck the willing faithful into building his church empire.

Now, now. let's not insult toads.
Dave