Jerry Falwell Dies

rubberwilli

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As far as the responses go to my recent reply to this thread; I should explain myself.

I am not saying to respect the man, I am saying to respect the death of a human being - there is a difference. If you respect a man, you respect the individual. If you respect the death of a human being, then you are respecting the natural cause of dying. I did not agree with his views, but just because I disliked him, does not mean I am going to parade around and say "Thank god he is dead." I just find it very immoral.


Christofferb: Keep in mind that the individuals on this list are not going to attend Falwell's funeral or protest at his funeral, ala Fred Phelps, they are merely expressing their thoughts on his passing. Yes, human life should be a sacred thing. However, when an individual who purports to be one of God's servants (and purports to speak directly to and for God) does so many hurtful and judgemental things in his life, it's hard to find respect for his death under even the best circumstances.

Falwell was very divisive in life, and as we see he has the same effect in death as well. The coming months will be very interesting as his ministry and works are pulled into other directions and the books are reviewed by others. History and time will write the final chapter on Falwell. We're to close to it right now.

Jerry Falwell twisted the bible to his own needs and repeatedly lied to get his way and to make millions off of others. Jerry will have to answer to God in the long run and be held accountable for his actions, words and deeds here on earth. I have a feeling he won't do so well in that discussion.
 

madame_zora

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Freddie, yes I think we are just splitting hairs on words, but I do know what you mean. I was also raised not to hate someone- hate the behavior, not the person. I was also raised not to speak ill of the dead, but then as Mindseye pointed out, we speak ill of all sorts of historical figures and don't bat an eye, so what's really the point? Oh, the point is that we not speak ill of the Christian dead- not others. That point bothers me.

Anyway, you know of my journey away from religiousity, I never expect anyone else to feel as I feel or do as I do. You have made your feelings on Falwell both as a man and as a leader quite clear, whether you use a different word than me to expersss your emotions is really of very little concern to me. I wish more people didn't feel such horror in renouncing one among their peers. Claiming to be a Christian shouldn't be a free pass to be as evil and greedy as one possibly can be. It insults Christians far more than people like me.

There are a few Christians who will stand up and speak out against such men, but like in all groups there are always more followers than leaders. That's why it's imperative for people like you, Freddie, who stay in the church and work at it from within to make known your feelings when someone like this speaks, so that others who may actually feel the same way but not be willing to stand out on their own, will feel safe that they are not alone in their beliefs. Who knows, perhaps you are really the majority after all, the ones who spew hatred are just better at getting their meaasge out. That might be the problem to work on after all.
 

madame_zora

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As far as the responses go to my recent reply to this thread; I should explain myself.

I am not saying to respect the man, I am saying to respect the death of a human being - there is a difference. If you respect a man, you respect the individual. If you respect the death of a human being, then you are respecting the natural cause of dying. I did not agree with his views, but just because I disliked him, does not mean I am going to parade around and say "Thank god he is dead." I just find it very immoral.

Thanks for the answer, and I can appreciate that. The thing is, morals are subjective. Your morals and mine may be different, but that doesn't mean that I don't have them. This is just a point on which we disagree, I don't find it immoral at all to speak the truth about a man during his life or after his death, nor do I find it disrespectful to express my honest feelings about his passing in public. I would never dare to intrude upon his families' solemnities, but as a public figure, he has no right to privacy in life nor in death. I have no religious beliefs which would hinder me from speaking thusly, nor is it my obligation to observe tenets of religions to which I don't belong.

I'm not trying to be rude to you, just offer an exercise in critical thinking.
It would be hard for you to understand how often I am "offended" on a daily basis by things done in the name of various religions, yet none of those religious people ever offer me an apology for just assuming my rights not to believe as they do are irrelevant.

Which do you believe are more important, actions or words? I pick actions. If you pick words, then that is the basis of our disagreement.
 

DC_DEEP

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<...>
I am not saying to respect the man, I am saying to respect the death of a human being - there is a difference. If you respect a man, you respect the individual. If you respect the death of a human being, then you are respecting the natural cause of dying. I did not agree with his views, but just because I disliked him, does not mean I am going to parade around and say "Thank god he is dead." I just find it very immoral.
Likewise, I don't think the "differing" opinions here are celebrating the death of a human being, I think they are celebrating the passing away of both his views and his influence. And yes, just as in your reasoning, there is a difference.
 

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One of the last things that Jerry Falwell did just before he passed was to visit Virginia Tech during the week after the April 16 shootings, and litter the campus with thousands of pamphlets bearing his name in which he suggested that atheism was worse than mass murder.

His "reasoning" was that mass murder -- like the one Seung Cho perpetrated on our campus -- was a sin, but Jesus forgives sins, and a mass murderer could ask for and receive forgiveness and salvation. An atheist, on the other hand, can't receive forgiveness, and is doomed to burn for eternity.

I'm not celebrating the "passing away of his views," because unfortunately, I know that his views live on through the students and alumni of his Lynchburg brainwashing camp.
 

playainda336

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I'm actually appalled by the responses on the death of Jerry Falwell.

The man said some very bigoted things. But this is the death of a man. A father. A brother. An uncle. A human being.

Hatred only begats more hatred and so you respond to someone's death with "Good riddance!" "He was such a homophobe! Hated him anyway!"?

I'm not trying to call anyone out or pick a fight, but a man just died. Let him rest in peace. He'll have to deal with God for what he did on Earth. Don't put his judgment into your own hands.

The man was a pig who preached the false gospel, but God rest his soul. I will not talk foul about the dead.

It's just not right. Don't bring bad karma to yourself. To what end?
 

Freddie53

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One of the last things that Jerry Falwell did just before he passed was to visit Virginia Tech during the week after the April 16 shootings, and litter the campus with thousands of pamphlets bearing his name in which he suggested that atheism was worse than mass murder.

His "reasoning" was that mass murder -- like the one Seung Cho perpetrated on our campus -- was a sin, but Jesus forgives sins, and a mass murderer could ask for and receive forgiveness and salvation. An atheist, on the other hand, can't receive forgiveness, and is doomed to burn for eternity.

I'm not celebrating the "passing away of his views," because unfortunately, I know that his views live on through the students and alumni of his Lynchburg brainwashing camp.
Oh my.....no wonder you hate the man. Such a cheap shot. Just exactly how was Falwell honoring the dead here? Somehow I missed it. That is just so despicable. My understanding of the faith that Jesus taught doesn't resemble this at all. My sympathies to the young people and adults that had to endure this kind of pamphlet propaganda at a time of such tragedy. It is inexcusable.
 

rob_just_rob

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I'm actually appalled by the responses on the death of Jerry Falwell.

The man said some very bigoted things. But this is the death of a man. A father. A brother. An uncle. A human being.

Hatred only begats more hatred and so you respond to someone's death with "Good riddance!" "He was such a homophobe! Hated him anyway!"?

I'm not trying to call anyone out or pick a fight, but a man just died. Let him rest in peace. He'll have to deal with God for what he did on Earth. Don't put his judgment into your own hands.

The man was a pig who preached the false gospel, but God rest his soul. I will not talk foul about the dead.

It's just not right. Don't bring bad karma to yourself. To what end?

I have never really understood why it's so awful to say negative things about someone who died. After all, he's dead. It's not as if he can hear you, or read your posts, and develop hurt feelings.

Negative words do a lot more harm to someone still alive, one would think.

Nobody cares when people say negative things about say, Ted Bundy or Stalin, who are also dead and were also someone's father, son, husband, brother or uncle, as the case may be. Granted, Falwell wasn't quite as bad as them, but where do you draw the line? Which dead people are fair game and which aren't? And more importantly, who gets to decide?
 

B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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I'm actually appalled by the responses on the death of Jerry Falwell.

The man said some very bigoted things. But this is the death of a man. A father. A brother. An uncle. A human being.

Hatred only begats more hatred and so you respond to someone's death with "Good riddance!" "He was such a homophobe! Hated him anyway!"?

I'm not trying to call anyone out or pick a fight, but a man just died. Let him rest in peace. He'll have to deal with God for what he did on Earth. Don't put his judgment into your own hands.

The man was a pig who preached the false gospel, but God rest his soul. I will not talk foul about the dead.

It's just not right. Don't bring bad karma to yourself. To what end?

your post seems to assume that we believe in

1. karma
2. God
3. an afterlife
4. divine judgment

I don't. So I say again, "good riddance." Not to spite his friends or family, even though I'm sure many of them are probably assholes too, but rather simply to briefly note that I'm not mourning the man's passing. I don't believe that Falwell, wherever he may be, is in any way affected by my words or having his eternal rest disturbed by them. If I did, I would probably say more, as he does not deserve to rest in peace. The act of dying doesn't make a person suddenly more deserving of respect. Everybody dies. It's what you do and accomplish in life that determines whether or not you deserve my respect.

If his family is reading this post (but seriously, what are the chances of that?), my condolences for your loss.
 

madame_zora

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Once we learn to rise above and laugh at the motherfuckers that don't get it about love, shit will hopefully chill.​


So someone preaching hatred need not be mocked, or stopped? While I'm glad that at least now he'll shut the fuck up, it does bother me that Christians in general don't make a point of saying "This man doesn't represent MY beliefs" and a pig like this still made FAT cash- someone was supporting his hatred with their money, and LOTS of them.

Sure, why renounce that good Christian organisation the KKK just because they hate niggers, isn't it their right to hate niggers?

The Bible flat out SAYS homosexuality is a sin, should anyone need to look any further for Truth than that? Why ISN'T it okay to preach against the fucking kweers? I don't see a problem with it, why can you just keep your hateful words to yourself while Bubba Jo's speaking?



Some people really ARE too goddamned stupid to see even extremely obvious patterns, really can't understand that this "fight" against kweers is EXACTLY the same as the fights against equality for women and blacks. The arguments are the same, and frankly the attitude is getting a little boring. You backwoods assholes could save the rest of the planet a lot of grief by accepting NOW what you'll be forced to accpet in 30 to 50 years- that we really ARE all deserving of equal treatment under the law, or the law means nothing. Of course, if you'd stop fighting the inevitable, you'd stop dragging the whole Human race to such a slow turtle's pace that we might just blow ourselves up in an unsupervised third-grade science experiment. Gawd, is there's anyone alive who really doesn't see that a race that is even as evolved as we are should have developed some better methods of dispute resolution by now than beating the shit out of each other in the parking lot?

Jesus Christ, people are so fucking stupid. Save us.
 

rob_just_rob

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So someone preaching hatred need not be mocked, or stopped? While I'm glad that at least now he'll shut the fuck up, it does bother me that Christians in general don't make a point of saying "This man doesn't represent MY beliefs" and a pig like this still made FAT cash- someone was supporting his hatred with their money, and LOTS of them.

Funny how so many "Christians" don't stand up and shout down the Falwells, Robertsons, Phelpses and all the rest. C'mon, "Christians"! Sue them! Make an attempt to cut off their funds! Stand up to Phelps instead of waiting for bikers and Michael Moore to do it for you!

"Christians" do seem to spend a lot of time complaining about how they and their fellow "Christians" get lumped in with the radical nutjob "Christians" by us rational folks (you know, the ones who don't believe in magical beings) due to the actions of said radical nutjob "Christians" that the other "Christians" profess to dislike so much. But I guess being lumped in with the wackos must not be bad enough to induce them to want to do anything meaningful about it.

What's even funnier is how many of these same, self-professed "Christians" will turn around and tar all "Muslims" with the terrorist brush. And say that if so few "Muslims" are in fact terrorists/Taliban supporters, why don't the rest of them put a stop to the extremists? Well, for starters, many of the "Muslim" extremists over there have guns and explosives, and use them. If "Christians" here won't stand up to Phelps - who probably isn't going to shoot people who oppose him, although it wouldn't astonish me if he started - how the hell do they expect moderate "Muslims" to make the armed extremists among them cease and desist?

Jesus Christ, people are so fucking stupid. Save us.

Ahhh, but god made us stupid, and it works in mysterious ways. So no saving is forthcoming, sorry, move along.
 

Freddie53

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So someone preaching hatred need not be mocked, or stopped? While I'm glad that at least now he'll shut the fuck up, it does bother me that Christians in general don't make a point of saying "This man doesn't represent MY beliefs" and a pig like this still made FAT cash- someone was supporting his hatred with their money, and LOTS of them.

Jana, many Christians did. The press just didn't cover that. The Southern Baptist Convention was split down the middle over Jerry Falwell and the fundie agenda. IN general,Jerry Falwell wasn't welcome in any of the following churches United Methodist, Presbyterian, United Church of Christ, the Unitarian Church, the Episcopal Church, and others. Sad but we did get the press that he did. Only our own members heard what we had to say about his agenda.

Sure, why renounce that good Christian organisation the KKK just because they hate niggers, isn't it their right to hate niggers?

That one takes the cake. I don't know of any real Christian who doesn't believe that the KKK is evil and is diametrically opposed to anything remotely Christian. And there they are with their burning white crosses. I have never known even the fundies say openly that the KKK was Christian. I know of some KKK membes right here in my town. Let's see one was a convicted child molester, one the town drunk and the list goes on. A bunch of assholes who can't find their butt with both hands.

And their they go putting forth the cross and claiming Christianity. It makes me sick to my stomach when I hear of them doing that. The KKK is as bad as the Nazis. They would kill every black person in this country if they could get away with it. Bastards they are.

Yes, they have the right to hate "niggers." They don't have a right to ram their beliefs down my throat or anyone else's. They should be silenced at every legal turn there is.

The Bible flat out SAYS homosexuality is a sin, should anyone need to look any further for Truth than that? Why ISN'T it okay to preach against the fucking kweers? I don't see a problem with it, why can you just keep your hateful words to yourself while Bubba Jo's speaking?

We've had this conversation before. Jana is being facetious about the Bible. Those who know the truth about the Bible's translation know that the Bible condemning gay relationships is very questionable and I for one don't believe that is what the writers of the ancient texts said. Male prostitutes and fertility religions was the topic in the Bible. Gay relationsihps as we know it aren't what the writers were talking about at all.

Of course the fundies have their own translations to say otherwise. That is their problem



Some people really ARE too goddamned stupid to see even extremely obvious patterns, really can't understand that this "fight" against kweers is EXACTLY the same as the fights against equality for women and blacks. The arguments are the same, and frankly the attitude is getting a little boring. You backwoods assholes could save the rest of the planet a lot of grief by accepting NOW what you'll be forced to accpet in 30 to 50 years- that we really ARE all deserving of equal treatment under the law, or the law means nothing. Of course, if you'd stop fighting the inevitable, you'd stop dragging the whole Human race to such a slow turtle's pace that we might just blow ourselves up in an unsupervised third-grade science experiment. Gawd, is there's anyone alive who really doesn't see that a race that is even as evolved as we are should have developed some better methods of dispute resolution by now than beating the shit out of each other in the parking lot?

Jesus Christ, people are so fucking stupid. Save us.

Why are you telling Jesus Christ? :tongue: He already knows that.:biggrin1:
I love to read your rants Jana. You make my day. They are so full of truth. Unfortunately.
 

madame_zora

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Just so anyone who has not been following our religious discussions for a long time knows, I DO understand what it means to be a member of a faith. If I believed in my heart (which I have at times in the past) that my religion revolved around my worship of who I perceived to be the Creator of the universe, it would indeed be very personal and powerful to me, it was when I was there. I DO understand that having one's religious tenets challenged is the most sensitive issue many people will ever face, right up there with grieving over the loss of a loved one for many. I don't do it lightly.

I also don't do it accidentally. I would never have made a big stink about this particular guy if HE wasn't a big particular problem. The point to be made here is that silence is not golden, it's DEADLY. It's not good enough to "be polite" while someone commits heresies in the name of your religion and takes what is good about your faith and twists it into a series of rants on hatred and judgement in exact oppostition to the teachings of Christ, and no one from within tells him he's off base and needs to go sit in the corner. No one starts a camapign to publicly proclaim "Don't apply the teachings of this false prophet to us!"

Speaking up is uncomfortable, and you know it, so you just don't do it. Other people would do to YOU what you're doing to me, and it makes you cringe to see someone stick their head out and say something that will make the mood uncomfortable for everyone, you wish I'd just shut up and get along like "everybody else". You'll gladly accept ANY circumstances that occur from just letting a bad apple ferment a whole bushel of apples, as long as YOU don't have to reach in and pitch out the bad one. As long as you can just pretend you don't notice the smell.

People are DYING. It's really a big enough deal to get out of our comfort zones over. I know we're a bunch of overfed pansies and the biggest deal in the world to us is that gas now costs more than it used to and we can't afford as many luxury items as we used to, and some of us are having to redefine what necessities really are, but we're still well above average in standard of living worldwide, we're really not starving for the most part. It's hard for a group of people to be motivated to change without an immediate NEED to change presenting itself. My guess is that things will have to get much worse before the average person is willing to re-evaluate his personal societal paradigms at all. What we have is a country full of people who are willing to take each other's personal inventories, but not their own.

Even as I'm typing this, I am aware of how many people are sitting there chomping at the bit to type out "Yeah, well you are too!!!!11!!!!!" because you really don't have the first fucking clue what I just said. Go sit in the corner.