Jesus isnt the Messiah

[the_reverend]

i believe he was the Messiah...of course, i also believe he was a Buddha, so i'm a bit more eclectic and delightfully heretical in how i approach the whole thing. most Jews don't believe in Christ's messianic nature or his divinity (which are two different things). which is their right. it has no impact on my belief one way or another and has never affected my friendship with people of that faith and culture.

and i'd say Messiah or not, his message and teachings are still important. and it doesn't affect his being the son of God/God taken the flesh (or at least my belief in that, to be more accurate).

 

[B_tallbig]

I too was raised and educated a Catholic. This is a topic that was often discussed by the Priests, Nuns and Brothers. I found that one must pay attention to understand what is being said.

I am offended that this topic is introduced in this forum. Im also not buying that english is not your first language.

The topic of this thread is Jesus isnt the Messiah . The reasons of of why the jews dont accept Jesus as the Messiah are valid. About 2 days ago i listed here several reasons . I asked catholic priests , ministers ects about LIFE questions and they not give me real answers, usually they give evasive answers. Sorry if you got offended . If a person dont think that Jesus is the Messiah, in what way this affect Jesus? If Jesus really is the Messiah
or not is independently of what anyone think.
Yes english isnt my first language most people here realized that.

 

[the_reverend]

The topic of this thread is Jesus isnt the Messiah . The reasons of of why the jews dont accept Jesus as the Messiah are valid. About 2 days ago i listed several reasons . I asked catholic priests , ministers ects about LIFE questions and they not give me real answers, usually they give evasive answers. Sorry if you got offended . If a person dont think that Jesus is the Messiah, in what way this affect Jesus? If Jesus really is the Messiah
or not is independently of what anyone think.
Yes english isnt my first language most people here realized that.

i think what some MIGHT be taking offense to is the declarative title of the thread. you've stated "Jesus isn't the Messiah." and yes, Jews have reasons for not believing that. But Christians have reasons for believing it. and there are myriad other people who have reasons for not believing in a Messiah at all. you come off like you're saying that because Jewish people have reasons for not believing Jesus was the Messiah, then that's the end all be all of the argument and all other beliefs, opinions and reasons are thusly invalidated. it came off more like you were making a statement of absolute fact rather than starting a discussion, a conversation, a forum for expressing and debating DIFFERING ideas and beliefs. hell, something as simple as changing the discussion title to "Was Jesus the Messiah?" would probably save you a lot of grief. i know there are linguistic barriers, but that almost means you have to work a little bit harder to clearly express what you're trying to say since you're communicating with an audience in that language rather than one you're more comfortable with. that goes beyond mere spelling and grammar into the content of what you're saying as well. just things to be mindful of.

 

[B_tallbig]

i believe he was the Messiah...of course, i also believe he was a Buddha, so i'm a bit more eclectic and delightfully heretical in how i approach the whole thing. most Jews don't believe in Christ's messianic nature or his divinity (which are two different things). which is their right. it has no impact on my belief one way or another and has never affected my friendship with people of that faith and culture.

and i'd say Messiah or not, his message and teachings are still important. and it doesn't affect his being the son of God/God taken the flesh (or at least my belief in that, to be more accurate).

According to the Jews the Messiah will be a 100% human being . With both human parents. Will be descend of David by the father line .

 

[the_reverend]

According to the Jews the Messiah will be a 100% human being . With both human parents. Will be descend of David by the father line .

well, according to SOME Jews. a lot of it comes down to context and translation as well. some say he'll just be descended from David, and in certain schools of thought your tribal affiliation comes from your mother's side, not your father's. Mary was also descended from David (it wasn't necessarily a rare thing to be descended from David back then...it's like having European ancestry and tracing your lineage back to Charlemagne...EVERYONE can do it. lol!).

there are some Jews today who DO believe that Christ was the Messiah, just as there were in the early days of the movement and the subsequent church. it was until later with Paul's evangelizing and Constantine's conversion that us goyim really started hopping on the bandwagon too. :biggrin1:

 

[B_tallbig]

i believe he was the Messiah...of course, i also believe he was a Buddha, so i'm a bit more eclectic and delightfully heretical in how i approach the whole thing. most Jews don't believe in Christ's messianic nature or his divinity (which are two different things). which is their right. it has no impact on my belief one way or another and has never affected my friendship with people of that faith and culture.

and i'd say Messiah or not, his message and teachings are still important. and it doesn't affect his being the son of God/God taken the flesh (or at least my belief in that, to be more accurate).

Do you read the reasons i listed on why the jews dont believe in Jesus as the Messiah ? i like you to comment on the reasons.

 

[B_tallbig]

well, according to SOME Jews. a lot of it comes down to context and translation as well. some say he'll just be descended from David, and in certain schools of thought your tribal affiliation comes from your mother's side, not your father's. Mary was also descended from David (it wasn't necessarily a rare thing to be descended from David back then...it's like having European ancestry and tracing your lineage back to Charlemagne...EVERYONE can do it. lol!).

there are some Jews today who DO believe that Christ was the Messiah, just as there were in the early days of the movement and the subsequent church. it was until later with Paul's evangelizing and Constantine's conversion that us goyim really started hopping on the bandwagon too. :biggrin1:

According to mainstream Judaism your tribal affilation only comes from the father side . This affilation can not be pass by adoption. Yes i heard about the messianic jews.

 

[the_reverend]

Do you read the reasons i listed of why the jews dont believe in Jesus as the Messiah ? i like you to comment on the reasons.

i read them...not that i particularly needed to since i've discussed this before with Jewish friends in the past. prophecy is open to interpretation, as far as i'm concerned. he may have fulfilled some, he may not have fulfilled others. neither particularly swayed my faith in him one way or the other (which is to say it wasn't the evangelists preaching about the prophecies he DID fulfill that caused me to believe). i believe in Christ's message, i believe in his philosophy, i believe in his divinity. many Jews in that time period saw the Messiah as a figure of national liberation, a Zionist revolutionary who would eliminate all conquerors and oppressors and bring the Hebrew people back to supremacy in their land and perhaps beyond...which is why many in that time who came forward claiming to be the Messiah and preaching a message of insurrection against Rome were so popular. right up until they were executed or publicly shamed and their followers quickly deserted them. Christ's message was different. not one of physical liberation from oppression, but spiritual liberation from sin and shame. not a war of swords, but of ideas. and of all the figures claiming to be the Messiah in that time, his were the only followers to continue his message after his death, to offer their own lives up in the name of his cause. the message matters just as much if not more than the man.

if in my lifetime the Messiah comes and says "yeah, no, Jesus wasn't me...just the son of God with some awesome ideas," i'll swallow my words. :wink: or if i die and God says "you know, he really WASN'T the Messiah...it's not important now or anything, but just so you know..." then i'll gladly cede the argument. but until then, it pretty much just comes down to what you believe. which is an inherently subjective thing. the Jews have reasons not to believe. The Christians have other reasons to believe. i don't think one set is more valid than the other. hell, maybe the Hindus have had it right all along and all this talk of Messiahs is moot anyway.

 

[the_reverend]

According to mainstream Judaism your tribal affilation only comes from the father side

i've heard differently. but, again, there are multiple schools of thought and differing sects within Judaism...as there have been dating back to the time of Jesus and for centuries before.

hell, since God has no actual genetic code of His own, maybe he simulated Joseph's when He impregnated Mary. little bit of a loophole to get lil Yeshua into the bloodline. lol!

and besides, if the Jews doubt the divinity of Christ as well as his messianic status, then it's a moot point that God was his father, in which case it really could've been Joseph and boom...he's back in the running.

 

[B_tallbig]

i read them...not that i particularly needed to since i've discussed this before with Jewish friends in the past. prophecy is open to interpretation, as far as i'm concerned. he may have fulfilled some, he may not have fulfilled others. neither particularly swayed my faith in him one way or the other (which is to say it wasn't the evangelists preaching about the prophecies he DID fulfill that caused me to believe). i believe in Christ's message, i believe in his philosophy, i believe in his divinity. many Jews in that time period saw the Messiah as a figure of national liberation, a Zionist revolutionary who would eliminate all conquerors and oppressors and bring the Hebrew people back to supremacy in their land and perhaps beyond...which is why many in that time who came forward claiming to be the Messiah and preaching a message of insurrection against Rome were so popular. right up until they were executed or publicly shamed and their followers quickly deserted them. Christ's message was different. not one of physical liberation from oppression, but spiritual liberation from sin and shame. not a war of swords, but of ideas. and of all the figures claiming to be the Messiah in that time, his were the only followers to continue his message after his death, to offer their own lives up in the name of his cause. the message matters just as much if not more than the man.

if in my lifetime the Messiah comes and says "yeah, no, Jesus wasn't me...just the son of God with some awesome ideas," i'll swallow my words. :wink: or if i die and God says "you know, he really WASN'T the Messiah...it's not important now or anything, but just so you know..." then i'll gladly cede the argument. but until then, it pretty much just comes down to what you believe. which is an inherently subjective thing. the Jews have reasons not to believe. The Christians have other reasons to believe. i don't think one set is more valid than the other. hell, maybe the Hindus have had it right all along and all this talk of Messiahs is moot anyway.

I agree that Jesus message is the most important thing. If Jesus is not the Messiah maybe is because he dont fullfill all the traits or maybe because such thing as the Messiah dont exist.

 

[the_reverend]

I agree that Jesus message is the most important thing. If Jesus is not the Messiah maybe is because he dont fullfill all the traits or maybe because such thing as the Messiah dont exist.

or some of the traits are wrong, or misinterpreted. or the Messiah isn't what some people think it is. it's all belief, it's all opinion, which means it's all subjective. heck, as i recall, you don't really believe in God anyway, right? so what does it matter to you who the Messiah is or what reasons people have for believing in him or not? if there's no God, then there's no real Messiah anyway. i guess i'm just curious why this is an issue for you one way or another.

 

[B_tallbig]

or some of the traits are wrong, or misinterpreted. or the Messiah isn't what some people think it is. it's all belief, it's all opinion, which means it's all subjective. heck, as i recall, you don't really believe in God anyway, right? so what does it matter to you who the Messiah is or what reasons people have for believing in him or not? if there's no God, then there's no real Messiah anyway. i guess i'm just curious why this is an issue for you one way or another.

Iam agnostic but i create this thread after studying the reasons of why the Jews dont believe in Jesus as the Messiah. I was raised roman catholic and when i was a little kid i always wonder : why the jews dont believe that Jesus is the Messiah ? now i know.

 

[B_tallbig]

Many agnostics like me investigate about many topics including religious topics . You dont have to belief in something to study it.