Jesus on Circumcision

[Lordpendragon]

"His disciples said to him, "Is circumcision beneficial or not?"

He said to them, "If it were beneficial, their father would beget them already circumcised from their mother. Rather, the true circumcision in spirit has become completely profitable."

The suppressed Gospel of St. Thomas (Didymos Judas Thomas) verse 53.

 

[prepstudinsc]

If one were to believe this, one would have to take the writings as orthoox canon, which no Christian church does. The Roman church, the Orthodox churches, and all Protestant churches have refuted the book.
While there are many parallels in the book to sayings of Jesus in the Bible, it was typical of gnostic sects to include sayings that they knew Jesus spoke in with their own musings.

So I doubt Jesus would have said it, since he himself was circumcised. Being a devout Jew, he still obeyed the law to a point--we know He healed on the sabbath, which would have been working, which is a sin--but just because Jesus came to take the place of "the law" doesn't mean that He would have just ignored all Jewish law and tradition.

The Gospel of St. Thomas quote seems rather far fetched to me.

 

[Lordpendragon]

Well, I beg to differ Prepstud.

The four Gospels are heavily rewritten from their probable original forms which historically would have been more likely to be in the form of Thomas' Gospel, if written soon after the death of Jesus (if indeed he died at all, which the suppressed gospel of St. Peter denies - ie no ressurection - hence no Gospel of Peter, the rock upon which etc etc).

IMO the four Gospels were chosen for predominantly political reasons over the seventy six or so that were subsequently suppressed as not orthodox.

You are free of course to put your faith in the four that were chosen some three hundred years after Christ's death, but as an historian I find the others compelling reading to understanding more precisely what Christ's own message and teaching really was.

Some of the suppressed Gospels make it clear that part of Christ's mission was to set the record straight about all the so called laws of the Old Testament and even the books chosen as the new Testament have Jesus overturning all these old rules. I am with the Marcian heresy on this - the god of the Jews is not the god of Christ, however politically convenient it may now be for fundamentalists to think otherwise today as it was when it was suppressed.

So within this context - I find the verse plausible.

 

[Lordpendragon]

This seems a good translation with links to canonical parallels and greek sayings for anyone of an enquiring mind.

Coptic Gospel of Thomas

 

[Peter Pud]

Jesus in fact did not ignore all Jewish law. He made his trips to the temple for the required worship. In fact he was in Jersusalem to celebrate the passover when he was arrested,tried, and crusified. I as well find it difficult to belive the non canonical gopels. They were rejected because they did not support the true teachings of the Christ. Therefore were not included in the cannon of the Bible.

 

[Lordpendragon]

They were rejected because they did not support the true teachings of the Christ. Therefore were not included in the cannon of the Bible.

This is a circular self fulfilling answer, and it is irrational.

These are the true teachings of Christ say I, so your's are not.

There is a great deal of scholarly work on the gospels, canonical and otherwise - it's well worth the research.

 

[LeeEJ]

Well, dammit, why don't we just build a time machine so we can go back and talk to Jesus Himself and settle all this religious interpretive debate once and for all?

Oh, that would be too obvious...

 

[prepstudinsc]

All one needs to do is study the gnostic gospels to find that they don't agree with orthodox Christianity. There were (and still are) so many offshoot groups that want to present a facade of mainline Christianity and then have strange beliefs below the surface. This is the reason that the gnostic gospels were written.

Another thing is that there is only a copy of the Thomas gospel,there is no first "edition," so it's very much subject to copy error by scribes.

An interesting point, however, is who the "Thomas" is. The gospel calls him Didymos Judas Thomas, which means Twin Judas Twin. So just who is he? Is he the Apostle Thomas, or is he one of the Judases mentioned in the Bible? Early church fathers argued this topic. However, all of them agreed that the book is heterodox. It's the equivalent of tv evangelists today vs. a heavily schooled, formally trained and ordained minister or priest who preaches the Gospel, rather than preaching the "prosperity gospel".

Look at the Jehovah's Witnesses. Their "New World Translation" of the Bible is so full of errors, yet the translation committee is anonymous.
In fact the first verse of the Gospel of John reads, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" but in the New World translation, it reads, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." Two distinct thoughts.

Call me closed minded, but I'll take my Bible just the way it is. It has worked for generations of Christians before me, the church fathers denied the gnostic gospels, and it contains plenty of truth inspired by the Holy Spirit. I don't need any falsehood presented, because there is already too much of it in the world. We need some truth and love preached sometimes.

 

[68306]

Honestly...

LeeEJ... I got me a dodgy time machine, but don't have a use for jumping forward, and am too gun-shy to give it another spin... (btw einstein's theories may be correct,.. there was indeed a tremendous feeling of velocity)


Jokingly...

As for my religious stance? Well,.. i'm still uncircumcised, praise the lord!

I cannot yet see life as an improvement without that part of myself, and am highly thankful it was never forced onto me without my consent.

 

[Spoogesicle]

Just a caveat concerning the Gnostic writings: as early as the first century A. D. the apostles and their followers were opposing Gnosticism. The Third Letter of John denounces the Gnostic leader Diotrephes, who opposed apostolic teaching. He actually thought he knew more about Christ than Jesus's hand-picked followers! And early Christian authors name the Gnostic thaumaturge Simon Magus, who is mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles, as the first heretic. Gnosticism predated Christianity, and was never accepted by mainstream Christianity because its doctrines are not compatible with Christian beliefs.

Though Jesus said nothing about actual physical circumcision in the canonical Gospels, there is a quote about figurative circumcision in the Acts of the Apostles attributed to St. Stephen, the first martyr: "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears!" He was a Hellenistic Jew, and he spoke about "uncircumcised" things as if they were bad.

 

[Lordpendragon]

All one needs to do is study the gnostic gospels to find that they don't agree with orthodox Christianity. There were (and still are) so many offshoot groups that want to present a facade of mainline Christianity and then have strange beliefs below the surface. This is the reason that the gnostic gospels were written.

Another thing is that there is only a copy of the Thomas gospel,there is no first "edition," so it's very much subject to copy error by scribes.

Well it's pretty obvious why they don't agree with the orthodox (about 50% of their contents anyway) because they were not the ones chosen to be the orthodox so they have to disagree. They were however current at the same time.

There is no first edition of any of the gospels.

When Constantine needed the new church to bring some cohesiveness back to the Roman World - the "fathers" realised that a canon with up to eighty "Gospels" would lead to disunity - a wise political decision was made and the four eventually ratified fitted the bill for the political ends.

That said, to the original Roman Catholic church any of the other current 3000 + denominations are heretical. I can't imagine how many denominations there would have been had the Roman Church fathers not suppressed the other Gospels. Unless you are a Roman Catholic Prep, you are a heretic to the "fathers".

I am not surprised that there were so many takes on the ministry of Jesus. After his death a number of followers went in all different directions to spread the word. And it was the word - in the oral tradition of the time. The earliest written gospel was probably Mark (there is huge debate about this, some scholarly some for other reasons) and it wasn't recorded before 60AD - there is no extant version I think prior to around the fourth century.

Many Scholars believe that Mathew and Luke are based upon Mark and a lost gospel known as the Q Gospel. So one of the synoptic gospels is not available which is a bit of a shame.

The authorship of John is not known, but it was written later in a different style and is rather gnostic in tone.

The Gospel of Thomas has as much in common with the synoptic gospels as they have with each other and it should not be a surprise that over a period of time in different regions, different positions evolved. This is a problem for Christianity in not having any original material from Christ or extant work from a disciple or two in his liftime.

Call me closed minded, but I'll take my Bible just the way it is. It has worked for generations of Christians before me, the church fathers denied the gnostic gospels, and it contains plenty of truth inspired by the Holy Spirit. I don't need any falsehood presented, because there is already too much of it in the world. We need some truth and love preached sometimes.

Given the number of denominations currently, I think it is a bold statement to say that it has worked and yes it is close minded to state that anything which isn't orthodox is false, but then I suppose that view has to come hand in hand with fundamentalism.

The suppressed Gospels contain much love (I can't comment on truth) and a very strong case for the Holy Spirit.

 

[68306]

I do not know the lord's beliefs... my estranged christian evangelist mother may know more, but she seems to be looked down upon by many as a crackpot.

She can perform miracles, so therefore she must be crazy. Yet I have seen co-incidence happen in such regular intervals and on command...


Either way, I don't think you should cut them, let them cut themselves. (unless they live in third-worldish areas that actually have survival matters at hand, it's a waste of good skin otherwise)

 

[Drifterwood]

Who who who is there?

 

[ManiacalMadMan]

knock knock knock

and?

You dredged this up after 10 monthes is there any thing you care to add to this subject?

 

[memyself90210]

Find god inside of yourself first and then you will be able to separate what is from god and what is not from god

If jewish law (circumcision, stoning, sacrifice) was supposed to be from god then why did Jesus criticize it so much, and he says "Is it not written in YOUR books?" in order to support his own claims, with their own writings. Jesus was either crazy or very intelligent and special, personally I go with the second, but I am not here to convince anyone, just to give my two cents

if youre interested in alternative theories this is cool

Is God the Universe? Revelation Revealed

 

[HazelGod]

knock knock knock

Who is that trip trip trapping across my brigde?

 

[ManiacalMadMan]

Who is that trip trip trapping across my brigde?

I always enjoyed The 3 Billygoats Gruff a very nice tale from my younger days that my beloved Pappy used to read to me (not related to the late Pappy of this site)
The Three Billy Goats Gruff

Once upon a time there werethree billy goats, who were to go up to the hillside to make themselves fat, and the name of all three was "Gruff."

On the way up was a bridge over a cascading stream they had to cross; and under the bridge lived a great ugly troll , with eyes as big as saucers, and a nose as long as a poker.
So first of all came the youngest Billy Goat Gruff to cross the bridge.
"Trip, trap, trip, trap! " went the bridge.
"Who's that tripping over my bridge?" roared the troll .
"Oh, it is only I, the tiniest Billy Goat Gruff , and I'm going up to the hillside to make myself fat," said the billy goat, with such a small voice.
"Now, I'm coming to gobble you up," said the troll.
"Oh, no! pray don't take me. I'm too little, that I am," said the billy goat. "Wait a bit till the second Billy Goat Gruff comes. He's much bigger."
"Well, be off with you," said the troll.
A little while after came the second Billy Goat Gruff to cross the bridge.
Trip, trap, trip, trap, trip, trap, went the bridge.
"Who's that tripping over my bridge?" roared the troll.
"Oh, it's the second Billy Goat Gruff , and I'm going up to the hillside to make myself fat," said the billy goat, who hadn't such a small voice.
"Now I'm coming to gobble you up," said the troll.
"Oh, no! Don't take me. Wait a little till the big Billy Goat Gruff comes. He's much bigger."
"Very well! Be off with you," said the troll.
But just then up came the big Billy Goat Gruff .
Trip, trap, trip, trap, trip, trap! went the bridge, for the billy goat was so heavy that the bridge creaked and groaned under him.
"Who's that tramping over my bridge?" roared the troll.
"It's I! The big Billy Goat Gruff ," said the billy goat, who had an ugly hoarse voice of his own.
"Now I 'm coming to gobble you up," roared the troll.
Well, come along! I've got two spears,
And I'll poke your eyeballs out at your ears;
I've got besides two curling-stones,
And I'll crush you to bits, body and bones.
That was what the big billy goat said. And then he flew at the troll, and poked his eyes out with his horns, and crushed him to bits, body and bones, and tossed him out into the cascade, and after that he went up to the hillside. There the billy goats got so fat they were scarcely able to walk home again. And if the fat hasn't fallen off them, why, they're still fat; and so,
Snip, snap, snout.
This tale's told out.

 

[deleted15807]

I always enjoyed The 3 Billygoats Gruff a very nice tale from my younger days that my beloved Pappy used to read to me (not related to the late Pappy of this site)
The Three Billy Goats Gruff

Once upon a time there werethree billy goats, who were to go up to the hillside to make themselves fat, and the name of all three was "Gruff."

On the way up was a bridge over a cascading stream they had to cross; and under the bridge lived a great ugly troll , with eyes as big as saucers, and a nose as long as a poker.
So first of all came the youngest Billy Goat Gruff to cross the bridge.
"Trip, trap, trip, trap! " went the bridge.
"Who's that tripping over my bridge?" roared the troll .
"Oh, it is only I, the tiniest Billy Goat Gruff , and I'm going up to the hillside to make myself fat," said the billy goat, with such a small voice.
"Now, I'm coming to gobble you up," said the troll.
"Oh, no! pray don't take me. I'm too little, that I am," said the billy goat. "Wait a bit till the second Billy Goat Gruff comes. He's much bigger."
"Well, be off with you," said the troll.
A little while after came the second Billy Goat Gruff to cross the bridge.
Trip, trap, trip, trap, trip, trap, went the bridge.
"Who's that tripping over my bridge?" roared the troll.
"Oh, it's the second Billy Goat Gruff , and I'm going up to the hillside to make myself fat," said the billy goat, who hadn't such a small voice.
"Now I'm coming to gobble you up," said the troll.
"Oh, no! Don't take me. Wait a little till the big Billy Goat Gruff comes. He's much bigger."
"Very well! Be off with you," said the troll.
But just then up came the big Billy Goat Gruff .
Trip, trap, trip, trap, trip, trap! went the bridge, for the billy goat was so heavy that the bridge creaked and groaned under him.
"Who's that tramping over my bridge?" roared the troll.
"It's I! The big Billy Goat Gruff ," said the billy goat, who had an ugly hoarse voice of his own.
"Now I 'm coming to gobble you up," roared the troll.
Well, come along! I've got two spears,
And I'll poke your eyeballs out at your ears;
I've got besides two curling-stones,
And I'll crush you to bits, body and bones.
That was what the big billy goat said. And then he flew at the troll, and poked his eyes out with his horns, and crushed him to bits, body and bones, and tossed him out into the cascade, and after that he went up to the hillside. There the billy goats got so fat they were scarcely able to walk home again. And if the fat hasn't fallen off them, why, they're still fat; and so,
Snip, snap, snout.
This tale's told out.

Never heard of it.