Jiu Jitsu / Jujutsu / MMA

[MASSIVEPKGO_CHUCK]

Did anybody ever tell you two that as supposed martial artists, you can't seem to let this go easily?

Tripod, as one martial artist to another who values the spiritual side of our craft, I admire you for your persistence in defense of it, but I tend to think that you've explained, and then some about it.

Hhuck, while your approach to MA may differ from Tripod's and mine, your persistence as well in dragging it out like this definitely has lost it's momentum what ever it was.

 

[tripod]

"Kung Fu" in Chinese (Mandarin?) translates to "obtained skill" in your native tongue. You're arguing to a useless point. There is no art. The term "Martial Arts" is a Western term, of which holds no water to begin with. Traditional "martial arts" has no self expression, therefore cannot be termed as art to begin with.

Aahhh... you are an idiot. The correct term for Kung Fu is Wushu which translates into "Martial Art" genius. The Chinese concept of "skill" and "art" are much deeper than the meanings that we have in English for those two words. The "art" in which one would apply a "skill" has greater meaning and holds much more significance than it would here in the West.

Gong Fu, Wushu, King Fu...

When practicing Wushu... one would be seen to have either good Kung Fu or bad Kung Fu. Their meanings are distinct yet separate.

You are a douche and a fool.

Did anybody ever tell you two that as supposed martial artists, you can't seem to let this go easily?

I studied martial arts, but would not ever consider myself a martial artist. I know enough to defend myself and that is all. I got into the more internal aspects of it after a while and found that to be muuuuch more effective than the external or more "hard" aspects.

It's not about letting go, but about simply enjoying arguing with half wits about something that I know more about than they do. :biggrin1:

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

You are a douche and a fool.

It's not about letting go, but about simply enjoying arguing with half wits about something that I know more about than they do. :biggrin1:

And then you speak of the spiritual aspects.
Go figure ...

 

[Remington]

The correct term for Kung Fu is Wushu which translates into "Martial Art" genius. The Chinese concept of "skill" and "art" are much deeper than the meanings that we have in English for those two words. The "art" in which one would apply a "skill" has greater meaning and holds much more significance than it would here in the West.

"Kung Fu: In its original meaning, kung fu can refer to any skill. Gōngfu (功&#22827 is a compound of two words, combining 功 (gōng) meaning "achievement" or "merit", and 夫 (f&#363 which translates into "man", so that a literal rendering would be "human achievement". Its connotation is that of an accomplishment arrived at by great effort. In Mandarin, when two "first tone" words such as gōng and fū are combined, the second word often takes a neutral tone, in this case forming gōngfu."

Originally, to practice kung fu did not just mean to practice Chinese martial arts. Instead, it referred to the process of one's training, the strengthening of the body and the mind, the learning and the perfection of one's skills, rather than to what was being trained.

Also, the term "kung fu" was not popularly used in the sense of "Chinese martial art" until the 20th century. Not until the late 60s with the introduction of Bruce Lee and the show "Kung Fu". Thus, the phrase "kung fu" is rarely going to be found in ancient texts. Before that, it was just called "Chinese boxing" to the west.

tl;dr

"Kung Fu" =/= "Martial Art". The Chinese literal equivalent of "Chinese martial art" would be 中國武術 (zhōngguó wǔshù)

 

[RawDog]

Art is certainly the term at question.
I am saying that virtually any activity could be done with a greater or lesser degree of art ... and you affirm a number of times that you see no art in the martial arts.
We only speak past each other here.

Totally agree. I do have to qualify one thing. Traditional martial arts is what we're talking about here. Modern mixed martial arts/Jeet Kune Do takes parts from different systems and makes it totally individual. I don't believe in taking the McDonald's approach of a bit here and a bit there and creating a new style. I do believe in learning as much as you can from each system, keeping what you can use and remembering what you can't. Everything had a purpose at one point in time, and to be blind to that is just as bad as to take everything as gospel simply because your Sifu told you so.

I don't understand why "the grace and economy and elegance of movement" expresses "someone else's truth." Why? Need that be so?

I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm simply stating that you don't own it unless you can pick it apart and question it. In the end, with traditional martial arts, it's still never yours because you never have that opportunity. The totality of what you learn and subsequently use identifies you as a martial artist. If your system or style forbids you to question what's been taught, then you're nothing more than a trained monkey.

I don't know what you mean when you say, "I believe there is calmness, tranquility, peace of mind, confidence, discipline, control, and to a certain degree trust. But I believe there is no art in tracing somebody else's work."

If I trace the Mona Lisa, am I creating art or simply making a copy? I see no creativity involved in mimicking someone else's movements

What you seem to appreciate is the journey into mastery. In shaping a life beautifully, it is a kind of art.

That's exactly my point. That's where the art is. But only because the school and instructors I have are open for discussion. Traditionalists fail to see that and stay stuck.

If your 20 years of learning various traditions gives a slight edge of knowledge in realizing what your truth is -- I want to know when the truth became personal. (I know this sounds like a silly question.)

When I started teaching to people that were open to questioning what was being taught. The other styles I've taken, I've taught as well, but it was forbidden to question. It showed disrespect.

I don't think that was a stupid question at all.

I studied martial arts, but would not ever consider myself a martial artist.

Then why am I wasting my time trying to explain why "Traditional Martial Arts" (like Kung Fu) has no art at all? You do realize that one statement you wrote makes every point you've made in this thread null and void, right?

And then you speak of the spiritual aspects.
Go figure ...

I don't think he's found the wiggle room yet.

 

[424365]

Still going back and forth with the owly one eh? I really like that word "owly" it just rolls from the tongue... but I digress.

I actually dropped from the argument earlier on for fact that being the better man I let him rant and rave and continue my own training. I do however have to comment on the whole " Just doing what others have perfected" thing. There is no perfected form of Martial art/ combat system. Any master will tell you this at once. Something new is discovered and added each and everyday whether it be from someone just beginning their training or have been training for decades. Much the same way that a picture of a boat is nice, then water is added beneath it, then waves, a nearby island, the sun, clouds, etc... that's what makes them all art no matter what they may be called.

That's just my two cents and I didn't happen upon that little ray of enlightenment until i first started practicing Bjj. There is something spiritual there and that cannot be taken away by the likes of anyone who thinks themselves as possessing higher intelligence than myself or others.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

The totality of what you learn and subsequently use identifies you as a martial artist. If your system or style forbids you to question what's been taught, then you're nothing more than a trained monkey.

Like it.

If I trace the Mona Lisa, am I creating art or simply making a copy? I see no creativity involved in mimicking someone else's movements

Okay. You mean very literal copying, with no taking of ownership at all. And I see your point.

I liked the whole post, actually, RD.

There is no perfected form of Martial art/ combat system. Any master will tell you this at once. Something new is discovered and added each and everyday whether it be from someone just beginning their training or have been training for decades. Much the same way that a picture of a boat is nice, then water is added beneath it, then waves, a nearby island, the sun, clouds, etc... that's what makes them all art no matter what they may be called.

So it's an endless journey, with a general but never finalized destination.
One continues to play indefinitely ... but playing seriously, always nudging that leading edge that one silly little millimeter further.
That's how children play most of the time. They are totally engrossed, in a way that we often lose as we get older.
Hanging on to that capacity to be all-absorbed is really important -- but you obviously know that in the gut.

 

[MASSIVEPKGO_CHUCK]

Aahhh... you are an idiot. The correct term for Kung Fu is Wushu which translates into "Martial Art" genius. The Chinese concept of "skill" and "art" are much deeper than the meanings that we have in English for those two words. The "art" in which one would apply a "skill" has greater meaning and holds much more significance than it would here in the West.

Gong Fu, Wushu, King Fu...

When practicing Wushu... one would be seen to have either good Kung Fu or bad Kung Fu. Their meanings are distinct yet separate.

You are a douche and a fool.



I studied martial arts, but would not ever consider myself a martial artist. I know enough to defend myself and that is all. I got into the more internal aspects of it after a while and found that to be muuuuch more effective than the external or more "hard" aspects.

It's not about letting go, but about simply enjoying arguing with half wits about something that I know more about than they do. :biggrin1:

Perhaps that is so, but you strike me as someone who knows when to give up on pointless bantering and sniping with someone who just argues and insults you for no reason.

Totally agree. I do have to qualify one thing. Traditional martial arts is what we're talking about here. Modern mixed martial arts/Jeet Kune Do takes parts from different systems and makes it totally individual. I don't believe in taking the McDonald's approach of a bit here and a bit there and creating a new style. I do believe in learning as much as you can from each system, keeping what you can use and remembering what you can't. Everything had a purpose at one point in time, and to be blind to that is just as bad as to take everything as gospel simply because your Sifu told you so.



I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm simply stating that you don't own it unless you can pick it apart and question it. In the end, with traditional martial arts, it's still never yours because you never have that opportunity. The totality of what you learn and subsequently use identifies you as a martial artist. If your system or style forbids you to question what's been taught, then you're nothing more than a trained monkey.



If I trace the Mona Lisa, am I creating art or simply making a copy? I see no creativity involved in mimicking someone else's movements.

Then you don't subscribe to the ideal that BJJ practically assimilated original JJ, and added their lethal movements that probably weren't in it to begin with? Do you understand that the origin of BJJ is that of Brazil taking in all kinds of immigrants about 300 yrs ago, including Japanese? And that more than likely, one of those Japanese was a Jiu Jitsu master/student and taught them, and afterwards the Brazilians only added their own lethal moves?
As for being a trained monkey mimicking their master's moves, well, that's all really speculation, since when you look at the rationale behind it, that applies to ALL martial arts.

BTW, the term Martial arts/artist is actually derived from a Greek word Mars/Ares the god of warfare.

 

[RawDog]

Then you don't subscribe to the ideal that BJJ practically assimilated original JJ, and added their lethal movements that probably weren't in it to begin with? Do you understand that the origin of BJJ is that of Brazil taking in all kinds of immigrants about 300 yrs ago, including Japanese? And that more than likely, one of those Japanese was a Jiu Jitsu master/student and taught them, and afterwards the Brazilians only added their own lethal moves?

What the Brazilians have done with Jiu Jitsu the last 2 decades has been phenomenal.The Gracies and Machados (cousins) all started the craze and the rest of the country has since evolved from it. Incorporating Capoiera and Muay Thai, to me they represent another example of what martial arts should be. They test it, and learn from their defeats as well as their victories. Granted, most of the "labwork" responsible for their education has come from combat sport competition, the influences make this a dyanmic and ever changing system.

If I ever find myself with enough disposable income to go wherever I wanted, Brazil would definitely be on the top of my list.

My only real issue with BJJ is the weapons aspect. Again, no one system can encompass all the facets of martial arts.

As for being a trained monkey mimicking their master's moves, well, that's all really speculation, since when you look at the rationale behind it, that applies to ALL martial arts.

There are 4 stages of competence. Unconscious incompetence, conscious incompoetence, conscious competence, and lastly unconscious competence. Some systems can take you through all four stages, some Sensei/Guro/Sifus can take you there as well. It's that rare combination of system and teacher that can take you through this and ultimately teach you not what to think, but how to think.

BTW, the term Martial arts/artist is actually derived from a Greek word Mars/Ares the god of warfare.

That, I didn't know. You, sir, are responsible for my first "You learn something new everyday" for taday.

 

[424365]

You know I totally forgot to finish responding to the op's original post.

There are other reason's that some martial arts allow master rank without much physical contention such as personal experience, dedication and enlightenment.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

... conscious incompoetence ...

Do tell, RD.:tongue:
j/k, man

 

[RawDog]

Do tell, RD.:tongue:
j/k, man

Pfft! :biggrin1:

 

[TheRob]

You don't know what the term artistic integrity means obviously.

This is a ten gallon topic and your mind only holds 7 gallons. It's okay, to be of average intelligence, I don't blame you newbie.

You think that you can waltz on in here with your piddly ass 61 posts and go toe to toe with a veteran like me intellectually? Don't be pissed that you got repeatedly pwned...

Care to debate the merits of artistic integrity as it applies to fighting styles?

Oh that's right, you don't know what the fuck I am talking about. lol!

Go back to your room Sparky.

you are in your 30's and use the term "pwned"
I guess that can pretty well speak for itself

 

[bigsam123]

Did anybody ever tell you two that as supposed martial artists, you can't seem to let this go easily?

Tripod, as one martial artist to another who values the spiritual side of our craft, I admire you for your persistence in defense of it, but I tend to think that you've explained, and then some about it.

Hhuck, while your approach to MA may differ from Tripod's and mine, your persistence as well in dragging it out like this definitely has lost it's momentum what ever it was.

As a NCAA wrestler and Black Belt in BJJ from a thung linage: Fuck your spirituality.

You can wrap all kinds of nonsense behind martial arts but at the end of the day you are teaching one man to kill or maim another.

 

[bigsam123]

Anyone here practice... curious. I searched and didn't see it in a few pages of results.

Gracie here. With a couple Kung Fu styles of yore... have to say I love it. Unlike .... "other" arts that allow you top rank yet NEVER being contested.

NCAA wrestler, BBJ Black Belt under Rickson Gracie here.
Also, don't get too smug about BJJ guys being "contested". Most would do poorly in a real fight with punches. Trust me. I have seen BJJ genius get smoked in street fights. BJJ is becoming like karate. It's becoming sports orientated.