karma and rebirth

what do youy guys think of karma and rebirth

  • i think is true

    Votes: 9 34.6%
  • i think it could be true but iam not sure

    Votes: 9 34.6%
  • i dont believe in karma and rebirth

    Votes: 8 30.8%
  • i dont know

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    26

B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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can you please elaborate or explain why do you think is dump the idea of karma and rebirth?

Because it's fantasy. Can you explain why it's dumb to think that the world is formed from the body of a deceased frost giant? We just take it for granted that it is, because Norse religion went out of fashion a long time ago. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that supports the idea of karma or reincarnation. It is complete and utter fabrication, imagined by man.

How about this, why are there so many billions upon trillions more organisms living today than there were when the Earth was young? Where are all the extra people coming from? If we are all reborn then shouldn't the number of sentient beings remain constant?
 

B_tallbig

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Not all Buddhists believe in rebirth.
In Japan, many people who call themselves Buddhists have given up that aspect of their spiritual heritage.
I practice at a monastery where we never speak of rebirth and certain teachers have expressed great scepticism about it.
I personally don't believe in it.
We do still have a notion of 'karma,' but we define it simply as the momentum of tendency ... the way in which all our patterns of perception, judgment, feeling, our sense of 'self' (which is entirely patterned), and a host of other things, present themselves.
The mindfulness meditation which is the fundamental Buddhist practice (in, I think, pretty much all traditions) helps to break up these patterns and allow one to step into the present moment.
Those relatively pattern-free moments are intensely rich ... well worth the effort of doing the practice, even if one has relinquished the notion that the practice will give the biggest of big payoffs -- an improvement of one's 'karma' (by the classical definition) and of one's prospects for a gratifying rebirth.

yea but is strange being a buddhist and denied karma and rebirth when buddha himself told that doctrine if karma and rebirth isnt real then practice the dharma not make sense at all

the 4 nobles truths and the 8 fold path only make sense in the context of karma and rebirth
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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How about this, why are there so many billions upon trillions more organisms living today than there were when the Earth was young? Where are all the extra people coming from? If we are all reborn then shouldn't the number of sentient beings remain constant?

That's the argument I used against it, even in childhood.

Your other argument, while one I again share, can only take you so far.

You're saying, 'Okay, hold this argument up, turn it in your hands, see how evidently stupid it seems (say, the Hindu notion that the world sits on a turtle) ... and now this other one (rebirth, etc.), as you hold it up, seems equally stupid, n'est-ce pas?'

But the family resemblance between notions or arguments or what-have-you doesn't really tell you much.

Fundamentally, you don't buy the latter because it doesn't pass your shit detector. And that has nothing to do with any competing world views, theories, notions, etc.

Five, or 50, or 200 arguments could all seem equally absurd, yet one of them could be true. Each must be examined on its own merits.
 

Not_Punny

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We don't know -- we don't have the equipment to sense and track all forms of life, and that includes "spiritual" life.

For all we know, every bad guy who dies is MULTIPLIED "ten times" at "rebirth", and every good guy is only multiplied "eight time" -- or at least it sure seems that say.

Just as cells divide and multiply, who says that "life" (spirit or whatever you want to call it) can't also divide and multiply?

We don't know YET. I think we will know someday as long as people are allowed to think and speculate.
 

B_tallbig

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Because it's fantasy. Can you explain why it's dumb to think that the world is formed from the body of a deceased frost giant? We just take it for granted that it is, because Norse religion went out of fashion a long time ago. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that supports the idea of karma or reincarnation. It is complete and utter fabrication, imagined by man.

How about this, why are there so many billions upon trillions more organisms living today than there were when the Earth was young? Where are all the extra people coming from? If we are all reborn then shouldn't the number of sentient beings remain constant?

well i understand what are you saying but according to buddism many planes exist where beings are reborn . the universe is vast some being are reborn here while others reborn in another worlds

iam not saying this is a fact . when you said that something is dump you have to elaborate because judging if something is dump or not is relative. some people could think that what you believe to be true could be dump . so important to explain why

but i see your point of not believing in something without prove that is a very good . is important to investigate and examine ourselfs before accepting something as true
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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yea but is strange being a buddhist and denied karma and rebirth when buddha himself told that doctrine if karma and rebirth isnt real then practice the dharma not make sense at all

the 4 nobles truths and the 8 fold path only make sense in the context of karma and rebirth

I don't agree with you ... or at best only half agree with you.
You know, some people claim there is doubt that Buddha actually had firm belief in Karma and rebirth, though in various sutras the assumption that he did would seem well founded. (I just mention this; I don't pretend to know how to sort the facts out ... especially since Buddha, like Jesus, is someone whose image, as it has come down to us, is of unknowable veracity.)
I have to go out in just a few minutes, and I don't know how to state briefly why I think a good deal of the Dharma and certainly of the practice retain their validity, even if we do away with the notions of Karma and rebirth.
Many people (Dr. Jon Kabat-Zinn, for example) are pushing mindfulness practice as a way of alleviating stress. I don't believe he is a Buddhist as such, though I don't know.
Yoga, in India, was supposed to accelerate one's spiritual growth, but many Western practitioners gain great benefit with no such prospects in mind.
If one thinks of the Dharma as a way of bringing individual consciousnesses into wakefulness, so that the practitioner experiences and lives his life as it is, keeps nearly always in this present moment, which few people do, then it is as useful as any other activity I have ever undertaken.
But I can't deny that if the stakes seemed even higher ... if practice was the way to achieve evolvement over innumerable lifetimes ... then one's motivation would be sharpened.
On the other hand, if you think this life is it, baby ... then you might practice with more exertion than if you thought the race was a marathon, rather than a seven-decade sprint.

EDIT: I believe the Four Noble Truths and the Eight-fold Path are ways of increasing one's awareness, so serve the same function as the mindfulness practice.
 

B_tallbig

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I don't agree with you ... or at best only half agree with you.
You know, some people claim there is doubt that Buddha actually had firm belief in Karma and rebirth, though in various sutras the assumption that he did would seem well founded. (I just mention this; I don't pretend to know how to sort the facts out ... especially since Buddha, like Jesus, is someone whose image, as it has come down to us, is of unknowable veracity.)
I have to go out in just a few minutes, and I don't know how to state briefly why I think a good deal of the Dharma and certainly of the practice retain their validity, even if we do away with the notions of Karma and rebirth.
Many people (Dr. Jon Kabat-Zinn, for example) are pushing mindfulness practice as a way of alleviating stress. I don't believe he is a Buddhist as such, though I don't know.
Yoga, in India, was supposed to accelerate one's spiritual growth, but many Western practitioners gain great benefit with no such prospects in mind.
If one thinks of the Dharma as a way of bringing individual consciousnesses into wakefulness, so that the practitioner experiences and lives his life as it is, keeps nearly always in this present moment, which few people do, then it is as useful as any other activity I have ever undertaken.
But I can't deny that if the stakes seemed even higher ... if practice was the way to achieve evolvement over innumerable lifetimes ... then one's motivation would be sharpened.
On the other hand, if you think this life is it, baby ... then you might practice with more exertion than if you thought the race was a marathon, rather than a seven-decade sprint.

EDIT: I believe the Four Noble Truths and the Eight-fold Path are ways of increasing one's awareness, so serve the same function as the mindfulness practice.


the 4 nobles truth and 8 fold path dont make sense at all without karma and rebirth. the goal in buddism is to stop rebirths and attain nirvana
samsara is the circle of rebirth and nirvana the opposite
the first noble truth is that existence contains suffering
well that can be observed

the second truth is the cause of suffering is attachment

what we do with attachment produce positive and negative karma
that trap us in the circle of rebirths

the third truth is that attachment can be eliminate

and 4 truth is the method to do that is the 8fold path

how you can end suffering eliminating attachment in the context on only one life ? that dont make sense even if you eliminate attachment with that alone you cant end suffering in the present life

again iam not saying that rebirth and karma are true . Just explaining why dont make sense to practice the dharma if rebirth and karma isnt true
 

SereneBlue

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what we do with attachment produce positive and negative karma
that trap us in the circle of rebirths

I have always wondered how Buddhism and Hinduism (since that's where I suspect Buddhism got it's reincarnation ideas from) explained exactly how and why eliminating attachment defacto leads to escaping reincarnation.
 

B_tallbig

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I have always wondered how Buddhism and Hinduism (since that's where I suspect Buddhism got it's reincarnation ideas from) explained exactly how and why eliminating attachment defacto leads to escaping reincarnation.

i just more complicate than that according to buddism we not have eternal souls in hinduism we have a eternal soul the reincarnate

buddha denied the doctrine of eternal soul
 

B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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yes, of course we don't know. That's the crutch all religious BS falls back on. The stuff that survives to the present day has been modified over and over again to the point where it can't be proven false. First everything in the Bible was literal truth, then certain parts were metaphor, then other parts were misinterpreted, then other parts were just unimportant in a modern context. The story keeps getting changed so that there's no way of ever proving it false.

Personally I believe that believing that some Jackal-headed dude is king of the underworld is no more or less arbitrary than believing if we work really hard at our job at McDonald's and never complain about our lot in life then we might be reborn as a urologist. The only difference is one view is popular now and the other is not.
 

the_reverend

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How is it one of the dumber things or how does it say a lot?

Well, I'd be hard pressed to prove the first point, as there are so many dumb ideas to have come from religion and it's hard to rank their dumbness on a qualitative scale, so you'll just have to accept that as my personal opinion.

As for how it says a lot... well... as I already mentioned... there are so many dumb ideas to have come from religion. You're not one of those people who believes that ALL religions are true, do you? You probably accept whatever dumb things are in Buddhism or Christianity because that's your background... but do you also believe that the world was formed from the body of the Ice Giant Ymir? do you also believe that all of humanity's problems come from body thetans trapped on Earth by galactic Emporer Xenu? do you also believe that through castration and mass suicide you, too can join Jesus on his spaceship as he flies by disguised by comet Hale-Bopp? do you also believe that Native Americans were originally an Israeli tribe banished to the Americas by God who turned their skin red as punishment? do you also believe that there is a kami (spirit) living inside the dirty sock on the floor next to me? this list is virtually endless I could go on for 15 pages...

no, i don't believe ALL religions are true. but i think MANY religions have truths embedded within them, both in their values system and in their mythology. to dismiss any and all beliefs as "stupid" is dismissive and misses the point. to carefully consider why people believe what they do and from where such beliefs spring (prevailing archetypes in the collective unconscious? some shared historical experience stored in our racial memory? semiotic expression of spiritual truths? the world's a wackier and more fucked up place than we give it credit for?) rather than tossing it aside because it differs from what you believe is a far better approach to my mind.

as for karma and reincarnation, i understand it's your personal opinion and entirely subjective and i'm not trying to pick a fight here...i'm asking genuinely why YOU, personally, believe them to be "stupid."

Because it's fantasy. Can you explain why it's dumb to think that the world is formed from the body of a deceased frost giant? We just take it for granted that it is, because Norse religion went out of fashion a long time ago. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that supports the idea of karma or reincarnation. It is complete and utter fabrication, imagined by man.

this makes the assumption that we all believe the Norse myths to be "stupid." i, for one, don't. it was their way of understanding the universe. i don't necessarily think every one of my beliefs about the way the universe works is going to hold up when the final Truth is revealed to me. i often imagine going to Heaven, looking out at everything and going "oh! THAT'S how that works! I was way off. Ah well, who wants another beer?" :tongue:

you're not only taking the stance that things need to be seen and proveable to be true and, thus, believed...but also that anything BEYOND those things is automatically stupid with no other explanation to back it up beyond "you can't prove it so it's not real so it's stupid." not the most enlightened position i've ever seen on the subject. :biggrin1:

How about this, why are there so many billions upon trillions more organisms living today than there were when the Earth was young? Where are all the extra people coming from? If we are all reborn then shouldn't the number of sentient beings remain constant?

well, that assumes that all of our incarnations are taking place on this planet or within the span of linear time so that we're reincarnating sequentially. the soul is free of such confines as time and space within the physical universe, so who's to say that i'm not living out another incarnation of my life right now, and that my next life won't be as someone or something else 200 years ago? as you point out, there's no way to prove or measure the spiritual, so it's all about belief...and our imaginations are powerful things indeed. but that doesn't mean the things we imagine aren't true. for me, that capacity goes hand in hand with the rational mind in the eternal quest for truth and wisdom.

the 4 nobles truth and 8 fold path dont make sense at all without karma and rebirth. the goal in buddism is to stop rebirths and attain nirvana
samsara is the circle of rebirth and nirvana the opposite
the first noble truth is that existence contains suffering
well that can be observed

the second truth is the cause of suffering is attachment

what we do with attachment produce positive and negative karma
that trap us in the circle of rebirths

the third truth is that attachment can be eliminate

and 4 truth is the method to do that is the 8fold path

how you can end suffering eliminating attachment in the context on only one life ? that dont make sense even if you eliminate attachment with that alone you cant end suffering in the present life

again iam not saying that rebirth and karma are true . Just explaining why dont make sense to practice the dharma if rebirth and karma isnt true

but the four noble truths are no less true within the span of one lifetime, yes? one can still follow the eightfold path within one incarnation, yes? i think what he's trying to say is that attachment can be eliminated and enlightenment to some extent can be attained within one life to pierce through the illusion of existence to the truth beyond.

it's the equivalent, as far as i can tell, of a Christian not believing in Heaven and Hell as physical places your soul GOES to or not believing in the absolute sancitity and necessity of the Sacraments towards the salvation of the soul. it's simply another viewpoint on the essential philosophy at the core of the faith.

yes, of course we don't know. That's the crutch all religious BS falls back on. The stuff that survives to the present day has been modified over and over again to the point where it can't be proven false. First everything in the Bible was literal truth, then certain parts were metaphor, then other parts were misinterpreted, then other parts were just unimportant in a modern context. The story keeps getting changed so that there's no way of ever proving it false.

well, what's more important? the essential philosophies and values at the core of these belief systems, or the costumes and props we as humans dress them up in to better understand them?

it's impossible to have any kind of actual debate or discussion with this kind of automatically dismissive attitude, where anything outside of your world view is immediately classified as "dumb." it's like trying to discuss evolution with a fundamentalist Christian. you're not going to get anywhere in it because they've already judged your argument before you've even made it. :rolleyes:
 

B_tallbig

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my point was that to truly understand why buddha told the 4 nobles truths is to see it in the context of karma and rebirth. budhha saw in his enlightment that our actions have efects and those efects can be produce in these lifetime and or in future lives . positive actions cause happiness and negative actions produce suffering . he told the 4 nobles truth to end suffering and the way to end suffering is to know and eliminate the cause. practice the 8fold in the context of one life can produce peace and reduce suffering but will not end it. onless you are a enlighted being in you last incarnation.

enlightment is a evolutionary process that takes mulltiple lives of hard work . so according to buddism not all people are in the same evolution state . some are closer to enlightment with thier effort than others. karma basically is a law of cause and efect that explain the differences of the circumnstances of different beings. t types of karma exist collective and individual karma .
the topic is too vast to cover it here in one paragraph
 

the_reverend

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my point was that to truly understand why buddha told the 4 nobles truths is to see it in the context of karma and rebirth. budhha saw in his enlightment that our actions have efects and those efects can be produce in these lifetime and or in future lives . positive actions cause happiness and negative actions produce suffering . he told the 4 nobles truth to end suffering and the way to end suffering is to know and eliminate the cause. practice the 8fold in the context of one life can produce peace and reduce suffering but will not end it. onless you are a enlighted being in you last incarnation.

enlightment is a evolutionary process that takes mulltiple lives of hard work . so according to buddism not all people are in the same evolution state . some are closer to enlightment with thier effort than others. karma basically is a law of cause and efect that explain the differences of the circumnstances of different beings. t types of karma exist collective and individual karma .
the topic is too vast to cover it here in one paragraph

which is what you believe, but others believe it in a slightly different way. it doesn't invalidate the four noble truths, the eightfold path or the notion of karma to NOT believe in reincarnation. it's just what they believe.
 

B_tallbig

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which is what you believe, but others believe it in a slightly different way. it doesn't invalidate the four noble truths, the eightfold path or the notion of karma to NOT believe in reincarnation. it's just what they believe.
is not what i believe i just explained what buddism is really about .

the truth is that iam a not a buddhist yet. iam reading a lot a books
of buddism by qualify masters and are very interesting. i know that some buddhist not believe in rebirth and karma but i found this strange . also karma without multiple lives dont make sense because we cant see the law of couse and effect operating in the present lifetime manytimes

is like claiming to being a christian but not believing in god, jesus cruxifiction , resurrection also not believing that jesus is the messiah etc

you could ask why i dont consider myself a buddhist yet. precisely because iam not 100 % sure about if the karma and rebirth thing is real . i dont like blind faith i need some prove about things but iam open to many posibilities
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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how you can end suffering eliminating attachment in the context on only one life ? that dont make sense even if you eliminate attachment with that alone you cant end suffering in the present life
again iam not saying that rebirth and karma are true . Just explaining why dont make sense to practice the dharma if rebirth and karma isnt true

The practice, if done ardently and consistently, can bring one into a state that many call 'unconditioned consciousness.' That is what many in Zen call, effectively, nirvana.

The practice must become 'embodied' so that it basically unfolds continuously. One constantly watches for the formation of a sense of 'self,' and when that 'self' is seen starting to coagulate into something solid, you then initiate the practice and that 'self' dissolves. You feel the breath; straighten the posture; open the eyegaze; notice bodily feelings; attend to the presentations of the senses. One does this continuously, so that in time one realizes one's nature simply as unfolding awareness, constantly in this moment, and now this moment, and now this moment.

'This' moment and 'this' breath are all you ever have.

This continuous practice is 'nirvana,' at least in some conceptions.

Was this what the Buddha had in mind? I don't know. But there is a considerable Zen tradition that holds that 'enlightenment' basically is the constant reassertion of practice.

What can be done in a single lifetime? A great deal.

You might say this is a smaller project than one that would see you purify yourself from attachment over several lifetimes.

But if this lifetime is the only one you have, then what's the point of the observation? You can do nothing about it.

But those in Zen aren't thinking very often even about this entire life. They're thinking about this breath here, now here, now here ... and similarly this moment now, and now, and now.

And those with truly ripe practices (I don't have one yet) say that the unfolding experience is marvelously satisfactory.

You know the word 'dukkha'? That's the Pali word for suffering. It basically means 'bad space,' or unease, unsatisfactoriness. Craving is at the root of this. And yes, a deep practice can take you pretty much past craving, past 'dukkha' ... in one lifetime.

I tell you, it can be done.
 

B_tallbig

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The practice, if done ardently and consistently, can bring one into a state that many call 'unconditioned consciousness.' That is what many in Zen call, effectively, nirvana.

The practice must become 'embodied' so that it basically unfolds continuously. One constantly watches for the formation of a sense of 'self,' and when that 'self' is seen starting to coagulate into something solid, you then initiate the practice and that 'self' dissolves. You feel the breath; straighten the posture; open the eyegaze; notice bodily feelings; attend to the presentations of the senses. One does this continuously, so that in time one realizes one's nature simply as unfolding awareness, constantly in this moment, and now this moment, and now this moment.

'This' moment and 'this' breath are all you ever have.

This continuous practice is 'nirvana,' at least in some conceptions.

Was this what the Buddha had in mind? I don't know. But there is a considerable Zen tradition that holds that 'enlightenment' basically is the constant reassertion of practice.

What can be done in a single lifetime? A great deal.

You might say this is a smaller project than one that would see you purify yourself from attachment over several lifetimes.

But if this lifetime is the only one you have, then what's the point of the observation? You can do nothing about it.

But those in Zen aren't thinking very often even about this entire life. They're thinking about this breath here, now here, now here ... and similarly this moment now, and now, and now.

And those with truly ripe practices (I don't have one yet) say that the unfolding experience is marvelously satisfactory.

You know the word 'dukkha'? That's the Pali word for suffering. It basically means 'bad space,' or unease, unsatisfactoriness. Craving is at the root of this. And yes, a deep practice can take you pretty much past craving, past 'dukkha' ... in one lifetime.

I tell you, it can be done.

i have read much about zen buddism and yes according to this type of buddism enlightment can be done in the present lifetime but in zen buddism both concept karma and rebirth are accepted.
 

B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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to dismiss any and all beliefs as "stupid" is dismissive and misses the point. to carefully consider why people believe what they do and from where such beliefs spring

Somehow I doubt any of the adherents to any of these ancient (or modern) religions felt that this was the "point" of their faith. They would more than likely be insulted by your reduction of their entire belief system. But anyway, playing along, why do people believe what they do and where do such beliefs spring from? How about an innate need to explain things that compels us to fabricate stories when we don't actually know something? Why are some of the stories similar? Simple lack of originality and creativity. Most of our religious predecessors stole from older stories, passed down by oral tradition. Those that came up with their own often used similar archetypes because people aren't as creative as they think they are. This fundamental need to understand and explain things makes most of us vulnerable to being duped by others who are egocentric (or greedy or crazy) enough to think of themselves as prophets or mystics or gods. From Buddha and Muhammad on down to L. Ron Hubbard and Tom Cruise.
 

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One minute you're alive, the next you're dead therefore something must have gone, it was natural for early man to invent a soul to explain why someone was there one second gone the next, once you invent a soul it has to go somewhere so an afterlife was invented filled with all the things that are found in the present life.