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Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by Shelby, Nov 1, 2006.
I guess his stumping for the upcoming elections is pretty much done.
Populist hypocrisy exposed.
I dunno, man. Kerry botched a joke. The president has us in an un-winnable war. (I 100% support the troops by the way - totally and unconditionally.)
From what I've heard on the news, the democrats are a bit silent, true. Too bad, really. This is bad timing.
What was the joke supposed to be? (actual words)
I heard the clip. There is no mistaking in my mind that he feels, or at least said to what he figured to be a sympathetic audience, that the military is for losers.
bad timing is an understatement
Kerry's a natural target for George. They're scrambling to the regain their Republican base to the last minute.
Anyone who knows John Forbes Kerry's record would laugh at the preposterousness of George's war (the draft-dodger he) when Kerry fought, defended, and then peaceably protested the last quagmire in which we found ourselves mired.
Anyone who doesn't see Kerry's remarks as focused specifically on the Bush policy in Iraq is an idiot (or a partisan reactionary) and simply looking to distract the American public in the oh-so-new-age-conservatist way of creating a smoke and mirrors reality to what's really going on.
As Senator Kerry says; "That's enough".
It is too.
"Spin" is a very powerful thing.
What you saw as "military for losers" I saw as an entreaty that they stay put lest they be similarly fated to Bush's war and its inevitable defeat.
Here's a wonderful David Brinkley quote:
"There's no such thing as objectivity. There are only lesser degrees of subjectivity".
NO FUCKING SHIT!
I just read something about Kerry's comments being a "botched joke." It was in Yahoo news, I'm sure you can find it. I don't know what to think about that.....I certainly don't approve of anyone insulting our troops in Iraq. But any negative commentary aimed at our policy there seems appropriate at this time.
Kerry is a backstabber, pure and simple. After he finished with the Vietnam War, he went and testified before congress and backstabbed the men he served with. He destroyed the reputation of an entire generation of Veterans. Growing up in the 1970's, I fully believed that people did the acts that Kerry testified to. It is to my intense shame, that I drank the poison that he dispenced. Not only did he testify to them, he also admitted before Congress that he particiapted in them, too.
The intersting thing about that is that we have a man who has professed to war crimes and hasn't been tried on them.
Now, thanks to the Swift Boat Veterans, we know that his testimony to Congress was a lie.
This whole idea that what he said was a botched joke is his contempt to people who have a brain. Saying John Kerry can tell a joke is like telling Roseann that she can sing.
Plus, he still hasn't, and won't, apologize to the men and women in the military. And let me say, too, that I AM a Veteran. I served in the USMC from 1989 to 1993. During my time in the Marines I was profoundly struck by the intelligence and moral backbone that I found there. I had already had a year and a half of college before i went to boot camp and I will say, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the people I served with are far more intelligent than those that the college was teaching.
Backstabber! Backstabber! Backstabber! Backstabber! Backstabber!
I will give Kerry some Kudos, though. He's the most famous male gold digger we've ever known.
And, before the personal attacks start in on me, if you are going to tow the party line, please don't. What he said is and was indefensible! This is NOT about the war. This is NOT about President Bush. This is AND WILL ALWAYS BE about how Kerry said that if you don't get a good education you will end up in the military.
If you can't keep that truth focused in your mind, don't respond to what I've said.
This is a different discussion, but let's not pretend that the current military application process does not target people who do not finish school school or do not have the financial wherewithall to go to college without those "military perks."
Kids should finish school--who the fuck wants to die in a needless war?
This guy is an insult to all Americans. He isn't worth one of his wife's can of Heinz pork and beans. Anyone whose picture is in the Ho Chi Min museum as one of Viet Nam's benefactors should not be serving in the United States Senate. To think that this jerk was almost elected president of the United States is unbelieveable. What is wrong with the people of Massachusetts that they don't get rid of him as their senator? He and their other senator are both a disgrace to the U.S. Senate. This is not a partison opinion. It is the opinion of a pro-American----and a four-year veteran of the army who crossed Europe to help defeat Hitler. Kerry is an insult to any veteran who has ever served The United States of America!
I've heard what the joke was supposed to be. Had he delivered that, the debate today would be, "What, John Kerry tells jokes???"
Still, his actual words didn't register on site, nor after the chance for reflection, that they can be taken as a slam against young Americans who volunteer for the armed forces. It's just so strange he'd rather blame GWB for his own verbal foul-up when, instead, if he'd done the simplest thing in life--->apologize even if you don't mean it--->the whole matter would have been basically forgotten. As it stands, it's concise enough for the perfect sound bite in R ads.
Whether something like this can help generate "base buzz" or not, who knows? As it stood, I thought the R's were destined to lose the House and possibly the Senate. This might motivate a few "planning to be otherwise busy on Nov 7th" conservatives to go out and vote...have to wait and see.
Interesting to note that Dems running in red state areas are calling for Kerry to apologize, while those in safer blue areas or ones not running at all are silent on the matter.
Happy or sad he lost in 04, yet another tone-deaf stmt from the X-Files of John "I actually did vote for the 87 billion dollars before I voted against it." Kerry.
Lex, with all due respect, this is the very same elitist condescending attitude that has SailboardBoy in the boiling pot. As a member of the academe you have an insular view.
In the face of an increasingly unpopular war the military may well be lowering its entrance standards. But in general it turns away those you think it seeks.
Furthermore, some people outside the university might say necessary rather than needless.
It's not truth it's spin Sklar.
And what is it that offends you most about John Forbes Kerry Sklar? His patrician background or his marrying a wealthy woman? Where's the heresy in either? It is somehow unAmerican to be wealthy? You - Log Cabin Republican that you claim to be - should (I dare say) see the merit in that.
Kerry fought and defended this land. He then took a good hard look at the mess that was The War in Southeast Asia and then he did the responsible Patriotic thing and exercised his Constitutional Right to protest that war.
Seems like a partiot in the manner of a "Patrick Henry" or a "John Adams" to me.
I'm glad to finally see John not mincing words.
He's had enough. So have I.
Those fuckers (Bushites) will justify anything in order to keep in power (and to keep you and me as second class fags).
Time to pull out all the punches.
I so loved The Senator from Massachusetts's reply;
It is too.
ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY LEX! Point should not be lost in this discussion.
Have you seen the documentary on how the military targets intentionally (pun intended on "Target") parking lots at stores like Walmart when doing their enlistment rounds? It's by intent to appeal to those from underpriviledged backgrounds.
Geez.. guess who THAT may be?
Have you seen any of the research into this? Do you think it has ever been a coincidence that a vast majority of military members come from less affluent homes? I am not looking down my nose at soliders--I am stating that the armed forces have people in mind in their recuriting efforts. If you think they do not, you are fooling yourself.
Think--who among us is more likely to think "a year of college paid for every year served" or "earn your degree and skills while serving" is more appealing: people with more opportunity or less?
I am not saying that members of our armed forces lack intelligence. That is not true. I am saying that people who do not finish high school may find entrance into the armed forces a more appealing way to earn a living or position themselves for economic success in our country.
I have many close friends who are vets. One even wrote a book. They even think this war is a bad idea. They understand that someone can support the troops and not want them at war.
All due respect to patriotic brainwashing: This idea that "true patriots" and/or "REAL Americans" never say a bad word about their country or president/officals is bullshit.
do NOT be fooled ANY OF YOU into thinking what Lex addresses is not the reality of this thing...
I'll dig up the site for that documentary if need be.
Military Recruiting on High School Campuses and at Homes
"An effective sales approach would be to tailor a program to fit the needs and interests of the individual (high) school," exhorts the US Army's School Recruiting Program Handbook.
"For example, one school may place a premium on its music program; another may give prominence to its athletic program. One school may place more emphasis on its academic scholarship program. Each school has a distinct chain of command structure."
Thus, the handbook, first published in Fall 2004, directs Army recruiters on how to strategize an high school program to maximize enlistment among students. And if that's not enough to entice teenagers, in June 2005, the Defense Department began working with an outsourced direct marketing company to develop a database of personal and private information about every American aged 16 to 25. Included in the database are Social Security numbers, ethnicity and racial data, email addresses, birth dates and grade point averages.
High School Campus Recruiting Buried in President Bush's much-touted No Child Left Behind Act of 2002 was Section 9528, a requirement that all public and private high schools receiving federal funds must "provide access to students' names, addresses and phone numbers" to military recruiters. It also mandates that high schools must allow military recruiters the same campus access to students as is granted to college recruiters and prospective employers.
High schools that don't comply with these requirement will lose federal funding, which would likely force closure of the school. The only exceptions to this law are private schools that can prove a "verifiable historical historical objection to military service."
Advice dispensed in the Army's School Recruiting Program Handbook includes :
- "Cultivate coaches, librarians, administrative staff and teachers.
- Be so helpful and so much a part of the school scene that you are in constant demand.
- Know your student influencers. Students such as class officers, newspaper and yearbook editors, and athletes can help build interest in the Army among the student body.
- Attend athletic events at the HS.
- Coordinate with school officials to eat lunch in the school cafeteria several times each month.
- Deliver donuts and coffee for the faculty once a month.
- Coordinate with the homecoming committee to get involved with the parade.
- Get involved with the local Boy Scouts. Many scouts are HS students and potential enlistees or student influencers.
- Attend as many school holiday functions or assemblies as possible.
- Offer to be a timekeeper at football games.
- Martin Luther King, Jr's birthday is in January. Wear your dress blues and participate in school events commemorating this holiday.
- Contact the HS athletic director and arrange for an exhibition basketball game between the faculty and Army recruiters.
- Hispanic Heritage Month (in September). Participate in events as available.
- Have the Commander present certificates to those faculty and staff members who have aided you in your HS recruiting efforts."
Parents may opt out of allowing their students' data from being released to military recruiters by signing an optional form. However, many parents are unaware of the optional form, and many schools have not made the form readily available to parents.
To enlist in the US armed forces, one must be a high school graduate, of reasonable intelligence and in good health. As recruiters fail to meet recruiting quotas, parents and students claim these rules have been bent.
One Arvada, Colorado high school senior famously tested the recruiting system by posing as a high school drop-out with a drug habit. After considerable coaching by two recruiters, he gained a phony diploma and transcripts from an online diploma mill. They also offered to pay half the cost of a self-detox kit.
At a Bell, California high school, 500 juniors were required to take the 3-hour Armed Forces Vocational Aptitude Battery test, which is prime part of the recruitment process. Only after they took the test did parents and students discover that it was optional.
Complaint files are rife with stories of recruiter promises made and not kept, impossible commitments made to naive teenage recruits, and of frequent phone calls and surprise home visits by military personnel to potential recruits.
And the military recruiters give items to high school students....t-shirts, mouse pads and computer accessories, even violent video games and other teenage-cool trinkets.
And there's that Defense Database on every American age 16 to 25.....
Pentagon Develops Detailed Database of US Teenagers
The Database of Potential Recruits In late June 2005, the Defense Department gave notice that it began working with a top-tier direct marketing firm, BeNOW Inc, to create a database of high school students ages 16 to 25, and all college students, ostensibly to aid the military in identifying potential recruits.
Data being amassed by the US government includes Social Security numbers, ethnicity and racial data, email addresses, birth dates, grade point averages, subjects being studied by the students and even known personal habits. This data is being gathered from drivers license records, financial institutions, government agencies and commercial data brokers.
According to the Washington Post, the Pentagon believes it has the right, without notifying citizens, to share this data outside the military, including with law enforcement agencies, tax authorities and Congress.
A Pentagon spokeswoman claims that anyone can opt out of the system by providing detailed personal information that will be kept in a separate "suppression" file, which will be regularly matched to the full Pentagon database.
Privacy advocates are furiously aghast at these plans, and have great concerns over both privacy and identity theft issues. A coalition of privacy groups wrote to the Defense Department, "...the collection of this information is not consistent with the Privacy Act, which was passed by Congress to reduce the government's collection of personal information on Americans."
Another objection is the collection of ethnic and racial data. Many claim that the Pentagon is targeting African-American and Hispanic students, which would be discriminatory. Such racial targeting would seem to be corroborated by the Army's School Recruiting Program Handbook, which particularly urges recruiters to attend Black History and Hispanic Heritage events.
Nonetheless, the Bush Administration is charging ahead in supporting this outsourced firm in compiling, processing and analyzing a myriad of personal information on all US high school and college students.
What can we do? Not much. Other than the opt-out options presently offered, the only remaining course of action for those who don't want to be in the military is to be extremely aware and wary of military recruiters and their tactics.
All branches of the armed forces have missed their new recruit quotas for the first half of 2005, so recruiting efforts have/will become more aggressive.
How can the Pentagon use this database information? In almost any manner it chooses. A spokesman says that the data will be openly available to "those who require the records in the performance of their official duties." It will maintained online, password protected.
Can this data be used for a military draft? Yes. In fact, some argue that this database is being developed to effectively track draftees. It's rumored that thousands of potential soldiers for the Iraq War have vanished and become untrackable. The Pentagon wants to avoid that in future wars.
How can I stop this? Many parents turn to Leave My Child Alone.org, a coaliton of reputable peace groups including Sojourners, Veterans for Peace, and the American Friends Service Committee. Leave My Child Alone.org educates parents and community groups about military recruiting and the No Child Left Behind Act.
And, of course, write, call or email your Senators and Congressmen. Support the organizations fighting these causes.
And give peace a chance.
Is it because Kerry served in Vietnam while Bush got yellow? What kind of troop support you portraying. Kerry served. Bush didn't. Those who voted Bush should be an insult to all Americans especially those Veterans. You voted Bush and got more bullshit and trying to turn it all around on Kerry?!! At least Kerry didn't tell us that it "was unacceptable to think". It is the Bush way not the American way. Bush didn't do much "thinking" on his feet in the Kerry/Bush presidential debates, did he? Kerry put Bush through the ringer. Bush lied about Iraq. Iraq didn't have weapons of mass destruction. Even Colin Powell knew. He stepped down after Bush's first Presidential term.
The tragic thing for all the Bushaters is that things were beginning to look pretty bad for the GOP. I think Joe average was beginning to have some serious doubts about the abilities of our (Republican majority) leadership.
This 'perceived' insult to Joe's core sensibilties will likely rally him to get out and make sure the Dem's don't gain as much as they hoped.
Just my prediction.
As long as we're reading slips of the tongue as Freudian Revelations of Truth, remember who said, "Our enemies . . . never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
What Kerry said is good for a chuckle and a raised eyebrow, but it's not newsworthy. Much gratitude to Stronzo and Lex for pointing out the real story here.
Again, people are missing the point.
This whole issue wasn't started because John Kerry was arguing about the war. It was started because John Kerry called our troops uneducated.
STRONZO - - FIRST - - I'm speaking as a Veteran, not someone with a political agenda. What offends me about John Kerry is his constant disdain and arrogance towards it. This comment from him is just another in a long list of comments and or actions that show his true colors when it comes towards the militray. Again, look at his 1971 testimony before Congress. He backstabs his fellow Veterans. Look at the Swiftboaters. Do you honestly believe that so many people he served with were bribed by the Republicans to bear false witness?? As for his constitutional right to protest the war, I'm all for that. Where he crosses the line is when he goes to meet with the leaders of the enemy that we are fighting while men like John McCain are staying in the Hanoi Hilton!
Democrat Zell Miller wasn't joking when he listed all the things militarily that John Kerry vetoed.
SECOND - - I am hoping you didn't mean this personally: "Those fuckers (Bushites) will justify anything in order to keep in power (and to keep you and me as second class fags). " I AM NOT, NOR WILL I EVER BE, SECOND CLASS! As for the word "fag" I find that as derogatory as African Americans find the N word. I am and always will be an American Citizen. I am not denied citizenship because i am gay. I am not denied health benefits because I am gay. I am not denied the right to go where I will when I will because I am gay. I am not denied a job because I am gay. I still have the same legal rights as any other single person in America. Even marriage benefits can be gotten around with the right lawyer and trust funds. So we can't claim each other on taxes, big whoop de do.
The problem with many Americans, both gay and straight, is that they perceive themselves to BE victims and so they stay victims. I am not a victim and I WON'T allow myself to be seen as one or allow others to try and paint me as one. If you want to be considered as second class fags (your word not mine) paint yourself that way.
BUT DON'T YOU EVER PRESUME TO DO THE THINKING OR TALKING FOR ME (rant over)
LEX AND STRONZO. Here's a challenge for BOTH OF YOU. Let's see if you are open minded enough to actually go and do it: I challenge you to go down to a recruiters office for any, I repeat, ANY of the armed forces. Go in there and actually sit down and talk to them about their recruitment standards. Ask them how much they have changed since 9/11. Ask them what the current recruitment requirments are. Don't go onto the web to find out. Be adult enough to do the research live and in person.
LEX - - you're just reguritating what John Kerry is spewing. The military goes into colleges just like they go into high schools. In fact, the military won a court case that was initiated by Liberals about that. The Liberals didn't want them there but the courts ruled (rightly) that if a college takes federal money then the military can come onto campus and recruit.
Your line: I am not looking down my nose at soliders - -is utterly hypocritical. So are you saying you look up to these men and women then? How can you look up to someone that was so stupid to join the military in the first place? The vast majority of Veterans can parlay their military experience into high paying jobs once they leave military service.
The image of the dumb grunt is kept alive by people on the left.
As for your friends who are vets who disagree with the war: MORE POWER TO THEM. What I would ask of YOU is to quit throwing in red herrings here. This topic is NOT about the war. This topic is John kerry calling our troops uneducated. Ask your veteran friends if they agree with that!
Again, I need people to take their blinders off and focus on what John Kerry SAID, not the war. They are two different issues in this case.
Recruiters would be foolish to waste time without critical data to tell them who to go after. If it were any other way, i woudl expect NBA and NFL footballa scouts outside my house since I am Black, 6'2" amd 194 pounds, right?
The average income of an exclusive WalMart shopper is $28K less than a n exclusive Target shopper. Source
Shh, you can't talk bad about the military. It's UN-American.
More info for Shelby to grossly ignore is here:
Read to find out about them targeting poor minorities, bullying kids who change their minds, etc.
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=+2]Military Recruiting: Their Tactics, Tools & Lies
Let's not pretend as if joining the military 40 years ago is the same as being drafted into war is the same as enlisting now. If it was the same, there would not be as strong a recruitment effort as there is.
Many of our soldiers now were in the reserves--you know--do a little time and never got to war really--when they got forced into this clusterfuck. They were guys who wanted to help out a little--scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. Now, look at them.
Military recruting efforts have been at a shortfall for years now. It's reaching critical mass.
Kerry said: "You know, education -- if you make the most of it, you study hard and you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq."
Knowing that the military's entire ad campaign is geared towards people who have less opportunity, how can you not do the math? It is unfortunate that people feel as he is calling military members stupid.
As we out-source more jobs and kids still drop out of school wit fewer opportunities (blue collar work is drying up quickly)--what choices do they have for money, health benefits, and cheap housing?
Again, no one is above comment in America.
And wouldn't you guys be MORE upset if it were a non-veteran who made the comment?