Kerry Torpedo

[B_big dirigible]

It's just so strange he'd rather blame GWB for his own verbal foul-up when, instead, if he'd done the simplest thing in life--->apologize even if you don't mean it--->the whole matter would have been basically forgotten.

Yes, it's the subsequent meltdown, when he blamed everyone else for his slip of the tongue (if that was really what it was), that makes the whole affair so quintessentially Kerry.

 

[Shelby]

In his non apology he said it was a botched joke. I still haven't heard anyone say what the unbotched version would have been.
​

 

[Mr. Snakey]

The best part of John Kerry went rolling down his fathers fucking leg!

 

[Sklar]

Sklar-

Let's not pretend as if joining the military 40 years ago is the same as being drafted into war is the same as enlisting now. If it was the same, there would not be as strong a recruitment effort as there is.

Many of our soldiers now were in the reserves--you know--do a little time and never got to war really--when they got forced into this clusterfuck. They were guys who wanted to help out a little--scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. Now, look at them.

Military recruting efforts have been at a shortfall for years now. It's reaching critical mass.

Kerry said: "You know, education -- if you make the most of it, you study hard and you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq."

Knowing that the military's entire ad campaign is geared towards people who have less opportunity, how can you not do the math? It is unfortunate that people feel as he is calling military members stupid.

As we out-source more jobs and kids still drop out of school wit fewer opportunities (blue collar work is drying up quickly)--what choices do they have for money, health benefits, and cheap housing?

Again, no one is above comment in America.

And wouldn't you guys be MORE upset if it were a non-veteran who made the comment?

You know, I almost fell for your trap. I was about to go point by point over what you have written above when it dawned on me: You are STILL missing the point!

This is not about war.

This is not about a draft.

This is not about recruitment.

This is John Kerry calling our troops stupid. Period. End of subject.

Can you not see that?

If you can't, then there is no point in our continuing this thread.

I feel like I'm here to play baseball and you want to play football. We're not agree to the main issue.

 

[B_Stronzo]

Again, people are missing the point.

This whole issue wasn't started because John Kerry was arguing about the war. It was started because John Kerry called our troops uneducated.

No. That's not what he said. You're "spinning" again. Stop and listen to what he said yesterday and the context. You want to discredit him. You can't help yourself.

STRONZO - - FIRST - - I'm speaking as a Veteran, not someone with a political agenda. What offends me about John Kerry is his constant disdain and arrogance towards it. This comment from him is just another in a long list of comments and or actions that show his true colors when it comes towards the militray. Again, look at his 1971 testimony before Congress. He backstabs his fellow Veterans. Look at the Swiftboaters. Do you honestly believe that so many people he served with were bribed by the Republicans to bear false witness?? As for his constitutional right to protest the war, I'm all for that. Where he crosses the line is when he goes to meet with the leaders of the enemy that we are fighting while men like John McCain are staying in the Hanoi Hilton!

No agenda? Oh okay.

You have a palpable anger about anything that would in the least criticize American military policy. The "Swiftboaters" were a batch of diehard repugs who were cooked up to undermine Kerry's military record. It was succesful too since so many (among them you it appears) seem to want to believe the present bile being fed you from that feeb in the White House. The stupidity of the American public (be they college educated or military) never ceases to amaze me. Perhaps that is what's truly most frustrating to the good Senator from Massachusetts. ** I hear ya John!

I see the professional and PR Republican campaign who created, funded, and coordinated the attacks on John Forbes Kerry are still largely successful in spreading their poison.

Read the truth of the Swift Boat smear campaign if you have the inclination or the stomach Sklar.

I'm not quite sure where you get off telling no one to 'disagree with [your] truth - but I can actually sense you unable to brook any real weighing of evidence. Well how very Republican of you.

And whatever makes you think that the attrocities to which Kerry addressed himself in the early 1970s were 'lies'?? He spoke in April of '71 as one of the VVAW (Vietnam Veterans Against the War). His eloquence and honesty is the stuff of legend. And again he had a right to say it since he'd "walked the walk".

You'll understand I'm sure if I give Kerry greater credence in understanding the complexities of the military and the war (no matter whether it be Southeast Asia or this present fucking mess) than some draft-dodger war monger presently residing at Pennsylvania Avenue? Good.

Since you're a veteran Sklar how is that you can justify the lack of service of one George Walker Bush by his father pulling in favors and hiding him in the Air National Guard yet be "all over" Kerry who went there, did the work assigned him by his superiors, then exercised his right to tell his reality to Congress?

What about that is "back-stabbing" or illegitimate to you?

Do you recall Lieutenant Calley and The My Lai Massacre? Oh sorry. You'll call that "colateral damage" won't you.

Sklar? I'd like to introduce you to Lindy English.

They were'nt making that shit up and whoever dissuaded you from thinking otherwise has sold you one helluva bill of goods.

SECOND - - I am hoping you didn't mean this personally: "Those fuckers (Bushites) will justify anything in order to keep in power (and to keep you and me as second class fags). " I AM NOT, NOR WILL I EVER BE, SECOND CLASS! As for the word "fag" I find that as derogatory as African Americans find the N word. I am and always will be an American Citizen. I am not denied citizenship because i am gay. I am not denied health benefits because I am gay. I am not denied the right to go where I will when I will because I am gay. I am not denied a job because I am gay. I still have the same legal rights as any other single person in America. Even marriage benefits can be gotten around with the right lawyer and trust funds. So we can't claim each other on taxes, big whoop de do.

Oh dear God.. where to start?

I used the word 'fag' on purpose... secondly you ARE a 'second class citizen' as long as your Commander-in-Chief wants to ammend that old Constitution of OURS to deny YOU the ablility to marry the MAN you love.

Ponder that.

'Marriage benefits can be gotten around'?? And why ever should they need to be? To satisfy the Christian moralists among us?

AREN'T YOU JEWISH??? For God's sake man!! It's a double-edged insult. You've caved to the fundie Christian mentality too?? I'm sitting here shaking my head in pure disbelief.

The problem with many Americans, both gay and straight, is that they perceive themselves to BE victims and so they stay victims. I am not a victim and I WON'T allow myself to be seen as one or allow others to try and paint me as one. If you want to be considered as second class fags (your word not mine) paint yourself that way.

You don't need the brush. Those Republican fuckers have a whole slew of them already. The easel's ready and they've painted both you and me my "brother" with the same palette.

BUT DON'T YOU EVER PRESUME TO DO THE THINKING OR TALKING FOR ME

I'll do 'the thinking' for you as long as you refuse to see the reality. Rest assured.

LEX AND STRONZO. Here's a challenge for BOTH OF YOU. Let's see if you are open minded enough to actually go and do it: I challenge you to go down to a recruiters office for any, I repeat, ANY of the armed forces. Go in there and actually sit down and talk to them about their recruitment standards. Ask them how much they have changed since 9/11. Ask them what the current recruitment requirments are. Don't go onto the web to find out. Be adult enough to do the research live and in person.

Done! Now go back and read what Lex posted about the target audience of your noble military!

The image of the dumb grunt is kept alive by people on the left.

Just now I'm seeing it decidedly on the right if you're any indication.
Stop being an ass and pay attention to how your own gay ass is being moderated and mitigated at the expense of those who think they're better than you are. You're part of the problem not the solution.

Again, I need people to take their blinders off and focus on what John Kerry SAID, not the war. They are two different issues in this case.

Blinders?

Hmmmm. :33:

How're yours doing after Georgie got us all mixed up in Iraq and has never apologized to his fellow Americans for getting us all bunged up in this thing on false pretenses?

Now there's an apology that needs saying.

And wouldn't you guys be MORE upset if it were a non-veteran who made the comment?

(Sorry missed this question until just now Lex...)

Answer? Given what transpired during the last campaign I don't think it matters anymore. It really isn't about the military in the least you see. It's about the idiocy of this war and the botched policies that instigated it.

That's what's lost on those who'd like to land on Senator Kerry's comment.

 

[mindseye]

I still have the same legal rights as any other single person in America. Even marriage benefits can be gotten around with the right lawyer and trust funds.

I call bullshit.

First of all, if you need the "right" lawyer to secure rights that other people are granted automatically, that is inherently unequal.

But second of all, I defy you to find the "right lawyer and trust funds" to convey these rights to a same-sex couple that are automatically granted to heterosexuals upon marriage:

• Filing of joint tax returns (you "whoop de dooed" this one).
• Eligibility for QTIP trusts.
• Immigration and residency benefits for a non-citizen partner.
• Social Security and Medicare spouse benefits.
• Access to VA hospitals for the partner of a veteran.
• Legally-protected leave of absence from work should your partner become ill.
• Recognized priority should the will be contested by the biological family of the deceased.
• Visitation rights in ICU's and other visitor-restricted hospital facilities.
• Joint discounts for auto, health, and homeowner's insurance.
• Reduced college tuition for partners of government employees.
• Standing to bring suit for loss of consortium should your partner be gravely wounded by a third-party.
• Freedom from being compelled to testify against your partner in court.
• Visiting rights in prisons, should your partner be incarcerated.

Obviously, not every right I've listed here applies to every couple, but none of them are available to same-sex couples without true marriage equality.

 

[B_NineInchCock_160IQ]

What Kerry said was spot-on-the-money. The real hypocrites are the folks in government who go on and on about how they support the troops and they're our nations best and brightest- when really to them they are just cannon fodder. They've got to keep up the morale of their pawns. Exposing this lie would be closer to supporting the troops than anything Bush has ever done. and Kerry's actually been to war. It's always the jackasses who have never gone and never will go who have the most glowing things to say about it.

 

[B_Stronzo]

What Kerry said was spot-on-the-money. The real hypocrites are the folks in government who go on and on about how they support the troops and they're our nations best and brightest- when really to them they are just cannon fodder. They've got to keep up the morale of their pawns. Exposing this lie would be closer to supporting the troops than anything Bush has ever done. and Kerry's actually been to war. It's always the jackasses who have never gone and never will go who have the most glowing things to say about it.

Now who's my 'brother'?

NineInchCock_160IQ is that's who!

Are you sure Niner you're not undervaluing that IQ of yours?? :tongue:

Who says I don't like straight people? I luv 'em when they talk truth and this one just wrote a mouthful.

 

[Shelby]

It looks like some Kerry supporting posters agree with an idea that Kerry is desperately attempting to distance himself from.

How sweet is that?

 

[B_Stronzo]

extroplate you instigator!:tongue:

BTW Shelb? I'm renaming this thread "Shelby's Torpedo".

 

[Lex]

It looks like some Kerry supporting posters agree with an idea that Kerry is desperately attempting to distance himself from.

How sweet is that?

I think we all know the difference between "distancing himself" and being sincere with his apology. Kerry's apology comes at the end of a day where he knows that doing so helps his colleagues in their quest to regain Congress.

Let's none of us pretend that he is sorry for what he said. As you already said, it was a non-apology.

 

[madame_zora]

Spin, spin, and more good spin.

I wish just ONE of the soldiers who were (are) serving at Abu Gharib would be so bold as to "tell the truth" in Kerry fashion about what they saw and did. silence does NOT equal patriotism when your country is in the wrong. It's the responsibility of the American patriot to protect the actual beliefs and behaviors of our country, and I DO hold our soldiers accountable for the atrocities THEY commit, be it in wartime or not.

Swiftboat Vets? Are you fucking loopy? EVERYONE knows their only reason for even forming was political- to discredit Kerry! Geez, do you think a REPUBLICAN group who was formed for the express purpose of discrediting ol' georgie's opponent might just lie to achieve their goals? Every other repug group does, so yeah- I'd say they lie outright, just like the prez.

FactCheck.org Republican-funded Group Attacks Kerry's War Record

But let's get back to the point- telling the truth is Unmerkin, so you assholes just enjoy the mess we live in and continue fucking wallowing in shit while we "elitists" who don't want our families to die for nutzo reasons try our damndest to save their young lives.

I repeat, it is NOT "treasonous" to tell the truth if OUR guys are in fact committing war crimes. If we're not the good guys, then I want no part of it. I will NOT support our troops while they rape, torture and pilage for fun at the expense of the lives of others.

The good news? They will be coming HOME one day. Think about that one, ladies! While we're building human killing machines without consciences, this is where they'll be returning. Expect domestic violence to be on the rise.

If any of you right wing fuckers really "supported our troops" you wouldn't be turning a blind eye to what is happening to them. Military benefits cut:

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Bush_cuts_vet_benefits_041503.htm

Many servicemen who bought homes in a more robust economy will be returning home to greatly reduced opportunity, and we'll be seeing a fairly dramatic increase in mortgage default, as we have been already.
How does that "support our troops" or anyone else in the fucking country?

Yes, it takes a special person to step up to the plate and serve our country's needs to the best of their ability, but ask the servicemen THERE. If they're not under each other's watchful eye, you just may get a few honest enough to tell you some pretty atrocious things. I can't judge them, I can't. I've never been in a situation where I had to kill people I don't know, and can't even conceive of what it would take to be able to do that. No doubt, most of them joined up with the sincere intentions of making a difference, but how do you think they're feeling now? Watching their young mates die, seeing NO kind of improvements from their efforts, watching the country they're trying to help spiral into civil war- they are lacking purpose.

They've been targeted by our government, and I think some of them are figuring it out. Most of us realise that installing the draft here would probably cause a civil riot, so the only option left to recruiters is to manipulate whoever is most vulnerable. As the military's demands for bodies increases, the techniques get shadier. "Support our troops"? Get off my dick, I DO support our troops, and their needs would be better served as CITIZENS, and alive!

 

[madame_zora]

I think we all know the difference between "distancing himself" and being sincere with his apology. Kerry's apology comes at the end of a day where he knows that doing so helps his colleagues in their quest to regain Congress.

Let's none of us pretend that he is sorry for what he said. As you already said, it was a non-apology.

This was always my chief complaint with Kerry- he lacked the courage of his convictions that he apparently HAD back when he testified. If he'd had more gonads, he wouldn't have let himself become a middle-of-the-road-apologist-with-no-distinguishing-characteristics-from-him-republican-opponent. He also wouldn't have conceded the election without a demand for recount, and FUCKING INVESTIGATION INTO THE FRAUD. I hold him responsible for his part in that. There was a point where I wondered if he took money from the repubs to concede.

I'm with Brains-n-Dong on this one- Kerry lost me when he addressed bush with respect in 2004. I voted for him anyway, as the lesser of two evils, but I was unimpressed with his ability to tell the facts as they stand. He had that once, but he seems to have lost it. I would not vote for him again.

 

[Sklar]

Since he issued an apology to all he offended, I'm happy with it.

As far as I'm concerned the issue is over.

 

[chico8]

Again, people are missing the point.

This whole issue wasn't started because John Kerry was arguing about the war. It was started because John Kerry called our troops uneducated.

STRONZO - - FIRST - - I'm speaking as a Veteran, not someone with a political agenda. What offends me about John Kerry is his constant disdain and arrogance towards it. This comment from him is just another in a long list of comments and or actions that show his true colors when it comes towards the militray.

Militray = a tray with a thousand legs?


Why is it that any vet who dares to speak out about the injustices that have been committed by and to American soldiers is automatically crucified?

Answer: A vast majority of those soldiers have been so brainwashed and threatened that they dare not speak out. So, when one does, they all take up arms and start to bash him simply because they don't have the guts to do the same thing.

No system is perfect and the only way to reign in the power hungry and greedy bastards in the WH and the Pentagon is to stand up to them, not bend over and spread your cheeks.

 

[madame_zora]

Since he issued an apology to all he offended, I'm happy with it.

As far as I'm concerned the issue is over.

Oh yeah, Gawd forbid you should ever be "offended". Asshole.

 

[B_NineInchCock_160IQ]

It looks like some Kerry supporting posters agree with an idea that Kerry is desperately attempting to distance himself from.

How sweet is that?

Kerry is a politician.

I'm not. I'm also not a "Kerry supporter." I'm a realist.

What he said was completley accurate. How the Republican pundits are spinning it, of course, refuses to acknowledge that. Kerry, as a politician, is fighting spin with spin. There is nothing remotely surprising about any of this.


Why don't you go tell the kids fighting in Iraq who are there only because their daddies didn't have enough clout and/or money to get them into Yale and because some asswipe military recruiter (who has also never fought in any war) came to their run-down high school/ghetto/project with a pack of lies about how they could improve their lives and these poor kids actually bought it because they were so desperate they felt they had no better options and now they're stationed somewhere they were told they never would be, getting shot at daily, had their buddies get blown up by roadside bombs, all for the sake of fighting some bullshit war that we had no business fighting in the first place for real reasons that their commander-in-chief STILL won't be honest about even while the troops he has SO much respect for are out risking and often losing their lives- or taking the curiously less valuable lives of the "enemy," while both the life risking and life taking are slowly leeching at their souls, leaving those smart enough to even think about the implications of what they've done feeling hollow, until they come back home, find out that the VA is horribly underfunded and understaffed and they can't get any treatment for their PTS-related depression or any other combat-related injuries/illness because once they're discharged from the army they're unemployed with no program in place to help them transition, they find that they've been trained to kill and not much else in spite of what the commercials on TV say, and find that all the benefits the asswipe recruiter promised them are slow in coming if they even come at all and besides even if they are lucky enough to find a job paying the same minimum wage as ten years ago, they've got no health insurance because this fantastic economic boom we're enjoying right now that, of course, those in power LOVE to keep talking about is not really benefitting most wage earners without a stock portfolio........ tell them about how much Bush respects and honors them. Tell them how, if they had simply wanted to, they could have found a better job, gotten a better education. Tell them that they just weren't trying hard enough.

Just because we have a "volunteer" armed forces does not mean that everyone who serves is there because they really want to be. Having many friends myself who have served, I would say that those who actually believe in the cause anymore (as it has been presented to them) are in the minority.

I've also worked doing data entry for the US Marine Corps and know from typing up written comments by officers in the Corps that the commonly held opinion, by those who are actually serving in the military, is that the quality of recruits has gone down the toilet. The kids entering now are there mostly because they had few if any other options open to them. The fact of the matter is you can do much better for yourself in the private sector these days, so those who actually can get a better education, who can get good jobs, do. That's all Kerry was saying. It's sad that the kids who are dying for our president now are doing so because they felt they had no other choice, but this is often the case. It's not necessarily that these kids are stupid (though increasingly they are, as we continue to lower our standards to meet recruitment quotas), but they are often coming straight out of high school, if they even made it through high school. They're plucked from one desperate situation and put into another.

There are a few who are there, of course, because they believe in the righteousness of the cause. But they're in the minority. Most are there thinking that it's going to be good for them financially, that it's going to mean a lifetime of good benefits, a steady job, a free education. Most of that simply isn't true.

Sorry for the very rambling nature of this, I was distracted while writing it.

 

[B_NineInchCock_160IQ]

extroplate you instigator!:tongue:

BTW Shelb? I'm renaming this thread "Shelby's Torpedo".

In all honesty I thought this was another thread talking about some gay porn star I hadn't heard of when I saw the subject line "Kerry Torpedo"

 

[invisibleman]

Oh yeah, Gawd forbid you should ever be "offended". Asshole.

:smile:

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Sorry for the very rambling nature of this, I was distracted while writing it.

Good rambling, NIC.