Kill the bill and Start Over

[Trinity]

You're not very bright if you can't make the connection between rising healthcare costs and how that might impact a predominately employer based healthcare system.

You're not very bright if you think passing ObamaCare will spur job growth. ObamaCare is a job killer:

Obamacare: Lifesaver or Job Killer? - MSN Video 3

Obama attempting to link passage of ObamaCare to jobs is just insulting to the American people.

ObamaCare has yet to show it bends the cost curb for healthcare...and it certainly doesn't spur job growth.

Health Care Bills Would Raise Costs
Congressional Budget Office director says Democrats' health care bills fail to curb costs

 

[JTalbain]

I thought this was an amusing article which illustrates how political rhetoric often gets in the way of facts when discussing the health care bill: "Socialism" and Sham in the Senate - Rasmussen Reports

It's even from Rasmussen. Trinity might be pleased if I weren't on her ignore list.

 

[HazelGod]

What's most tiresome about these processes is that the facts presented in that article are flatly obvious to the educated amongst us...but the general population is so intellectually stunted, the novelty of such information has them playing catch-up all the time while everyone else waits for them.

There's a reason that republican government became the dominant manifestation as opposed to pure democracy. Simply put, people are either too ignorant, too lazy, or both to be entrusted with every decision affecting the social order...and the problems become more pronounced as the population scales upward.

These noisy retards are doing nothing but slowing down the progress of our society, which is precisely what their masters guiding the yoke want them to do.

 

[deleted15807]

Simply put, people are either too ignorant, too lazy, or both ........

Salieri : “My dear Mozart, there are only so many notes that the ear can hear at any one time!”

 

[Ericsson1228d]

These noisy retards are doing nothing but slowing down the progress of our society,

I agree, we need to get society moving and ignore those waiting for yet another government handout.

 

[Trinity]

What's most tiresome about these processes is that the facts presented in that article are flatly obvious to the educated amongst us...but the general population is so intellectually stunted, the novelty of such information has them playing catch-up all the time while everyone else waits for them.

Apparently your version of the "educated" are the most easily duped. The shivers running up your leg when Obama spoke turned your brains off and you failed to think rationally when it came to the future of this nation.

That article was a waste of time to read. It made no significant points.
The Senator's don't know what they are talking about? Republicans just want Obama to fail? Ridiculous. When your country has a 12 Trillion dollar deficit, Millions of Americans are out of work, Soldiers are dying daily in Afghanistan without a strategy, Iran has a secret nuclear program, and daily terrorists plots are being discovered on our soil...it ceases to be about the "former rock star candidate's " rep. Obama's failure is his own. Either he is an effective leader or he isn't. No President came in with more goodwill and political power behind him.
Obama cannot blame Republicans for his job performance!

France ?

France Fights Universal Care's High Cost August 2009

French Health Care Expert: France's System Broken, Should Copy US; Media Yawn 2007

French healthcare is 'badly run' 2004

These noisy retards are doing nothing but slowing down the progress of our society, which is precisely what their masters guiding the yoke want them to do.

The noisy retards are the Left that refuse to deal in reality. The progress of our society won't come from deficit spending our future away...particularly not for massive Progressive programs that make government bigger.... when Government has yet to run programs cost effectively.

 

[Ericsson1228d]

Apparently your version of the "educated" are the most easily duped. The shivers running up your leg when Obama spoke turned your brains off and you failed to think rationally when it came to the future of this nation.

That article was a waste of time to read. It made no significant points.
The Senator's don't know what they are talking about? Republicans just want Obama to fail? Ridiculous. When your country has a 12 Trillion dollar deficit, Millions of Americans are out of work, Soldiers are dying daily in Afghanistan without a strategy, Iran has a secret nuclear program, and daily terrorists plots are being discovered on our soil...it ceases to be about the "former rock star candidate's " rep. Obama's failure is his own. Either he is an effective leader or he isn't. No President came in with more goodwill and political power behind him.
Obama cannot blame Republicans for his job performance!

France ?

France Fights Universal Care's High Cost August 2009

French Health Care Expert: France's System Broken, Should Copy US; Media Yawn 2007

French healthcare is 'badly run' 2004




The noisy retards are the Left that refuse to deal in reality. The progress of our society won't come from deficit spending our future away...particularly not for massive Progressive programs that make government bigger.... when Government has yet to run programs cost effectively.

The people who voted for Obama got exactly what they wanted. A stuffed shirt reading a telepromtpter telling them all sorts of things they wanted to hear. Guess what... he hasn't done shit, and that is with a MAJORITY in Congress, so don't try to blame the Republicans. If Trent Lott were still in charge, he would have said "we have 60 votes, this is what we are doing." The Dems are SO INEFFECTIVE that even with their numbers they can't do a damn thing! You put them in charge, and all they can do is drool on themselves once in a while.

 

[SilverTrain]

The people who voted for Obama got exactly what they wanted. A stuffed shirt reading a telepromtpter telling them all sorts of things they wanted to hear. Guess what... he hasn't done shit, and that is with a MAJORITY in Congress, so don't try to blame the Republicans. If Trent Lott were still in charge, he would have said "we have 60 votes, this is what we are doing." The Dems are SO INEFFECTIVE that even with their numbers they can't do a damn thing! You put them in charge, and all they can do is drool on themselves once in a while.

I'm so tired of this tired rhetoric. Either the Dems are forcing their liberal agenda on a hapless public, or they are so inept they can't implement their agenda (like the studly Republicans could).

Give the Limbaugh playbook a rest for heaven's sake.

When was the last time you had a thought that involved the betterment of society? (hint: increasing your personal adjusted gross income doesn't count. Neither does slagging Barack Hussein Obama, Democrats, liberals, socialists, etc.)

 

[Ericsson1228d]

When was the last time you had a thought that involved the betterment of society? (

The last time I voted.

 

[SilverTrain]

The last time I voted.

Oh, whee that was fun to say, wasn't it?

Now, let's think about that statement.

McCain/Palin.

Society.

Yeah.

 

[Ericsson1228d]

Oh, whee that was fun to say, wasn't it?

Now, let's think about that statement.

McCain/Palin.

Society.

Yeah.

Umm, so here is where you list everything Obama has done for society,.... plenty of room here...... (cue the crickets)

 

[SilverTrain]

double post

mods please delete

 

[SilverTrain]

Umm, so here is where you list everything Obama has done for society,.... plenty of room here...... (cue the crickets)

Gee, he's trying to pass a comprehensive health care bill, to bring our nation into twentieth (twentieth!) century standards of morality and efficiency. But the people you so proudly voted for (and their allies and mouthpieces, such as yourself) are lying as much as humanly possible to block the implementation of this reform.

So, piss off with your faux morality, and especially your talk of responsibility. We have a responsibility to do the right thing. For ourselves and each other. It's simple. Unless you're a heartless, selfish, greedy pig.

 

[JTalbain]

Yeah, what has Obama done with Healthcare? He's left it to Congress to come up with a compromise. He's given the Republicans a chance to be heard on this bill, which both parties deem to be very important. He was under no compulsion to do this, particularly not when healthcare was his baby. He has bent over backwards in order to give the Republicans a voice on an important issue, one which the American voters took away from them.

I don't suppose it's occurred to anyone that Obama was the President of Harvard Law Review? He could have written the bill himself, and pushed it through Congress on a straight party vote before Ted Kennedy died and ended the Democrat filibuster-proof majority. He has given them a chance, which is honestly far more sporting than any President is required, or even expected, to be.

Of course, the response has been somewhat lackluster. Republicans want to have it all their way, and so were squandering their opportunity by spreading rumors and trying to pass non-healthcare related issues through on amendments. It's taken the likes of Alan Grayson, who honestly just fed their own rhetoric back to them, to get them to contribute substantially at all. It's probably too late however, as many senators have grown frustrated waiting for their Republican counterparts to get onboard, and have been discussing shutting them out of the debate entirely.

Still complaining about Democratic spend-happy ways? Thinking along those lines might have just brought those ways into our country to stay. Congratulations.

 

[deleted15807]

It's simple. Unless you're a heartless, selfish, greedy pig.

You are on the right track.

It all dovetails into the idea as Clearance Thomas wrote 'Success (as well as failure) is the result of one's own talents, morals, decisions and actions." And there will be no redress for any circumstance be it age discrimination, sex, race, sexual orientation, nothing nada zip. And besides you have to prove all that and we've taken away your ability to prove it. And here too. In other words FUCK YOU we will do what we want to do.

 

[Trinity]

Yeah, what has Obama done with Healthcare? He's left it to Congress to come up with a compromise.

Obama left it up to Pelosi and her crazy self and the rest of her ethically challenged Democrats to come up with a healthcare bill because he had no experience and attempted to avoid the pitfalls that Hillary Clinton suffered but Obama just fell into bigger holes becaus he had no idea what he was doing.

He's given the Republicans a chance to be heard on this bill,

Now why would anybody even form their mouth to even tell that lie? Neither Obama nor the Democrats in congress made any attempt to work with Republicans. Obama made the SHOW of attempting to extend a hand, sit at the table and all that "for show" nonsense, but when it came down to it...Every Republican Amendment was shot down by the Democrats and ONLY WHEN Rep. JOE Wilson revealed one of the MANY lies, fabrications and misinformations that Obama and the Dems were all about - did they even for one second agree to compromise. But don't cash the check, because they went back on alot of issues they agreed to compromise on.

which both parties deem to be very important. He was under no compulsion to do this, particularly not when healthcare was his baby. He has bent over backwards in order to give the Republicans a voice on an important issue, one which the American voters took away from them.

Let me get this straight -Obama wasn't obligated to work with Republicans because he had a mandate based on the election? Please. Do he and Pelosi have a mandate now? NO. Obama and the Democrats have been spouting that nonsense since November 5th. Obama is looking like a cheap suit on Saturday Night Live because he needs to get over himself. Obama is looking like a ridiculous figure head of State who needs to appoint a real leader to lead this Nation as he flies home in defeat from Copenhagen because he doesn't have his priorities right - no mission for our soldiers in Afghanistan and can't meet with the Dalai Lama because our Debt Holder China wouldn't like it.

The Democrats had a mandate to improve healthcare...not to do whatever they wanted. We The People review the solutions and decide if it is good for us. The townhalls showed in very loud and impassioned fashion by bill number and section that people don't want the Democratically Controlled Congress to mess up their healthcare just because the extreme Left thinks that in the middle of the worst recession in history and our deepest deficits it would be wonderful to have government in control of healthcare when Social Security and Medicare are insolvent (and currently being ignored as Obama and the Dems deficit spend.)

Obama never bent over backwards. He never wrote a bill. He gave a speech - like the rock star candidate forever running a campaign Obama always does. Obama summarially got called out for the lies he was telling and the American people saw for themselves that Obama wasn't working to include ideas of THE AMERICAN PEOPLE...we want incremental changes that don't cost anything close to starting with a "T."

I don't suppose it's occurred to anyone that Obama was the President of Harvard Law Review? He could have written the bill himself, and pushed it through Congress on a straight party vote before Ted Kennedy died and ended the Democrat filibuster-proof majority.

No he couldn't...Obama was too busy flying all over the world like a jet-setter visiting the Queen, France, the Middle East...bowing to Kings and holding campaign like rallies giving an apology tour.

He has given them a chance, which is honestly far more sporting than any President is required, or even expected, to be.

Wrong. The American People have given Obama a chance...and currently SNL is telling the tale...

Of course, the response has been somewhat lackluster. Republicans want to have it all their way,

Wrong again. Democrats want to have it all their way. It just so happens that "their way" is crazy and we can't afford it, and it won't work according to all cost analysis.

and so were squandering their opportunity by spreading rumors and trying to pass non-healthcare related issues through on amendments. It's taken the likes of Alan Grayson, who honestly just fed their own rhetoric back to them, to get them to contribute substantially at all.

Nope. It took Joe Wilson to shine a light on all the Democrat's lies.

It's probably too late however, as many senators have grown frustrated waiting for their Republican counterparts to get onboard, and have been discussing shutting them out of the debate entirely.

Democrats never allowed Republicans in the debate. Democrats did not compromise...and only made small concessions when Joe Wilson stood up.
The Democrats are just shooting themselves in the foot. Obama can't make a move on Afghanistan because political fallout if he gets caught up in a quagmire. It has always been a risk...the problem is we need a leader willing to do whatever is necessary -what is best for this nation and the world regardless of the political risk.

Obama and the Dems can shut out their counterparts who have different ideas if they want to...they will be shutting out many Americans who are opposed to their plan as well. They will be overreaching. They can find out in 2010.

Still complaining about Democratic spend-happy ways? Thinking along those lines might have just brought those ways into our country to stay. Congratulations.

Nope. 2010 and after that 2012.

 

[JTalbain]

Now why would anybody even form their mouth to even tell that lie? Neither Obama nor the Democrats in congress made any attempt to work with Republicans. Obama made the SHOW of attempting to extend a hand, sit at the table and all that "for show" nonsense, but when it came down to it...Every Republican Amendment was shot down by the Democrats and ONLY WHEN Rep. JOE Wilson revealed one of the MANY lies, fabrications and misinformations that Obama and the Dems were all about - did they even for one second agree to compromise. But don't cash the check, because they went back on alot of issues they agreed to compromise on.
......
Obama never bent over backwards. He never wrote a bill. He gave a speech - like the rock star candidate forever running a campaign Obama always does. Obama summarially got called out for the lies he was telling and the American people saw for themselves that Obama wasn't working to include ideas of THE AMERICAN PEOPLE...we want incremental changes that don't cost anything close to starting with a "T."

Oh wow, I'm not on Trinity's ignore list. I suppose I'll start off and get it out of the way...

Still waiting Trinity. www.congress.org :smile:

Now that that's out of the way, perhaps you can enlighten everyone with these many, many proposals that were supposedly put forth by the Republicans, only to be shot down by the evil Democrats? I happen to have kept up with the debate, so I know that quite a few made it through. This is why both parties can agree on 80% of the bill.

Which proposed amendments? Perhaps the one proposed by Senator Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah), which would have denied any coverage to people whose plans allowed for abortion? Yes that's right, people are dying and we should push our partisan objectives. Or maybe we should look at his other proposed amendment, which would "transition relief for the excise tax on high-cost insurance plans for any state with a name that begins with the letter 'U.' " Gee, which state begins with "U"? Here's a hint, Hatch lives there. Then his other two beauties, one which not allow federal dollars to be spent on physician assisted suicide (which was not being allowed under the bill anyway), and another which required $50 million dollars to be spent on abstinence education. Be proud, Utah. This guys a keeper.

How about the amendment by Senator Charles Grassley (R-Iowa), which would have added extra red tape in order to restrict healthcare to children. Great priority there. Oh, another one by Grassley: eliminate the $7 billion in fees to insurance companies by the federal government, and then make up the difference by reducing benefits to the poor and to legal immigrants. Yay! It's like watching Robin Hood in reverse!!

Maybe the amendments by many Republicans (Sen John Kyl R-Arizona is notable) who wanted to eliminate the spending cuts from Medicare, wishing to keep things as they were rather than making Medicare more cost-efficient, despite evidence that Medicare will be financially insolvent by 2017. It's broke, it's costing too much money, it needs to be fixed.

Maybe the oh-so helpful amendments to which you are referring are these two from Kyl and Grassley. Respectively, they prohibited federal funding for "cost effectiveness research" and "comparative effectiveness research". That's a wonderful idea! Part of the main plan is to streamline existing government run medical coverage in order to make it more cost effective, so why don't we remove our ability to find out what works! At least they were on topic though, Senator John Ensign (R-Nevada) was busy offering up an amendment for "Transparency in Czars". Shortly afterward, he proposed another amendment, to strike every instance of the word "fee" and replace it with "tax". Oh, yes. With semantics we can heal the world.

Are you forgetting about the Republicans who have found ample room for cooperation? How about Senator John McCain, who Barack Obama himself singled out, said his idea was good, and that he was going to implement it? Maybe Senator Olympia Snowe (R-Maine) who has proposed 26 amendments, 5 of which were cosponsored with Democrats? Duncan Hunter (R-California) successfully added an amendment to protect jobs by employers who would not be able to afford to provide insurance to their employees. And then there is the bipartisan initiative to create incentives for those who practice good preventive care, exercising regularly and not smoking.

Here's a compilation of other Republican amendments which have been allowed:
House Energy and Commerce Committee Republicans Committee Votes :: Markup of H.R. 3200 "America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009"

So, many Republicans have been trying to pass blatantly retarded amendments in order to show their "participation", while Republicans who play ball and offer constructive ideas get amendments added. How exactly are the Republicans being shut out of this issue again? Perhaps you'd like to qualify your BS blanket statements this time?

 

[Trinity]

Now that that's out of the way, perhaps you can enlighten everyone with these many, many proposals that were supposedly put forth by the Republicans, only to be shot down by the evil Democrats? I happen to have kept up with the debate, so I know that quite a few made it through. This is why both parties can agree on 80% of the bill.

Here is a letter from Republicans about what happened in the House. The major points are that the bill was rushed, the Republicans were not included in compromise, the bill was not costed or debated properly and finally the major flaws in the Democrat bill that make it a bad bill for the country:

Dissenting Views on H.R. 3200

It is also worth pointing out that the Committee refused to act on the Clinton bill in 1994 until nearly three months after the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) released a comprehensive, 104-page analysis and score. We had no such analysis of H.R. 3200 or the Chairman’s mark. What we had instead was a very rough estimate on only a portion of the bill based on specifications as outlined by the Majority to CBO, not on actual legislative text. As Director Elmendorf wrote to Chairman Rangel:​

“It is important to note, however, that [those] estimates are based on specifications
provided by the tri-committee group rather than an analysis of the language released [this week]. For that reason and others outlined below, those figures do not represent a formal or complete cost estimate for the coverage provisions of the draft legislation.”
Quite simply, that is not adequate for a bill as important as this, one that will have such far-reaching impacts on every family and business in America. We cannot afford to guess and hope we got it right. This Committee had no business marking up a bill of which CBO cannot tell us its cost or impacts. That view was further confirmed by
testimony during the day by Director Elmendorf about the long-term budget impact of
this legislation.​

​

​

​

Specifically speaking to amendments by the Republicans:​

V. ATTEMPTS TO IMPROVE THE LEGISLATION WERE REJECTED
Sadly, the foregoing does not constitute a complete review of the flaws of this legislation. During the Committee mark-up, these and other concerns were identified. Republicans attempted to address them through more than three dozen amendments. Those included amendments to: eliminate the government-run health insurance plan that could result in two out of three Americans losing their current coverage; ensure that comparative effectiveness research isn’t used to ration care based on cost; terminate the governmentrun plan if wait times for care become too long; prevent the government from requiring health care providers to serve patients enrolled in the government-run health plan; ensure the Health Choices Commissioner could not deem abortion to be a required benefit; reverse cuts to Medicare Advantage plans, which give seniors access to benefits not found in the government-run Medicare program; and promote medical liability reform, which would help address the impact that the practice of defensive medicine has on health care spending.​

Sadly, not a single one of these or the other amendments offered was accepted, reinforcing the widely held belief that this effort is a purely partisan exercise in which additional views and suggestions simply are not welcome.​

Here's a compilation of other Republican amendments which have been allowed:

Most of the amendments listed on that page weren't passed.

So, many Republicans have been trying to pass blatantly retarded amendments in order to show their "participation", while Republicans who play ball and offer constructive ideas get amendments added. How exactly are the Republicans being shut out of this issue again? Perhaps you'd like to qualify your BS blanket statements this time?

The Dissenting Views to H.R. 3200 clearly contradicts your b.s. blanket statements.