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Kinsey Report - An alternative take.

someone2004uk

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Hi, I've kinda been lurking around, waiting for something decent for me to say and I stumbled across this today:

Playboy and the (Homo) Sexual Revolution.

It seems to me like some extreme right-wing/evangilical website, if you go back to the front page they even have a pop at old G.W.Bush for "covertly" allying himself with satan.

Kind reminds me of this website too. This guy even has a go at Catholics

The main reason I am posting this is because of some of the "interesting" claims against Kinsey and I personally don't believe/want to believe most of what this webpage has to say, but I thought it might be interesting for everyone to discuss.

NB: I apologise if any of these sites have been posted before or if what they contains/or anything I have said offends anyone.

I also apologise for my appauling spelling
 

madame_zora

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Someone, Thanks for posting this article. It is obviously written by a fundie, and while I agree with some of the content, I dislike the spin. Yes, Kinsey was an influence on Hugh Hefner, yes the "breakdown of American society" could have some of it's roots there. The thing is, America is not the whole world, or even the most important part of it. It was founded by a dour bunch of Puritans, but they are not the only residents! We are the most backward of the developed countries, which is absurd, unless you take into account the fact that we are so relatively young for a nation. Perhaps as time goes on, we will mature socially. Repressiveness, prejudice, homophobia and the like are extreme immaturity issues, and nothing more. I am aghast that we don't seem to get a clue that these are all the same root issue. While we eagerly shift our hatred from one group to another, we ignore the fact that we are still hating others, and we are still wrong.

The real breakdown of the American family came during WWII when women were introduced into the workforce. Once they could earn money, they were no longer as willing to accept second-class citizen status. No longer was it assumed that an abused woman should stay with her husband, women raising children alone seemed preferable to some than raising them in an unhealthy environment. Many hetero men have simply NOT taken responsibility for chasing women away, or offered any kind of apology for their own bad behavior. Now, if a woman finds herself in a bad marriage, she has the chioce to leave- but the guy has a choice not to be a dick in the first place. (I completely understand how slanted this sounds, and I know women cheat, lie, and cause relational problems too. I am speaking in terms of historical reasons for divorce rates).

Then came Vietman, and we, as a society, came to realise that our leaders could be wrong. We were not following blindly what we were told, at least not all of us. This attitude of questioning authority an commonly accepted norms added fuel to the fire. Women began wanting equal pay, not just a job, but perhaps a career. These are all good things!

Enter the gay liberation- like blacks in the 60's, gays are now the target of outright fear-based hatred amoung the stupid. Steadfastly holding the Bible and swearing it preaches non-acceptance, they blunder through life missing the whole message of God, that we should love one another. There is no cure for stupidity, it is terminal. We can only wait for the unenlightened ones to die, and teach our children better morals. Why would anyone possibly care who someone else fucks?
Is this really an issue of any importance at all? No! Human rights issues are important, not sticking our nose where it doesn't belong.

Lastly, the idea of sex for fun is offensive to fundies. They aren't fun people. They are miserable, think being holy is about suffering, think purity is about self-denial.
Whether hetero or homo, they think you shouldn't have sex for fun, but only to "do your duty to God" by bearing children. Well, we have no shortage of children, we clearly have more than anyone wants to raise and care for (including the self-righteous fundies) and our society has progressed to a level where the infant mortality rate is very low, so fertilizing every egg is simply not needed. Homosexuality has been around since the dawn of man, it's nothing new, it is only our backwards, hillbilly attitude toward it that is. Sex for pleasure is nothing new either (recall "the oldest profession"?), but WOMEN having sex for pleasure is. In the past it was okay for men to have extramarital sex, but the only conceivable reason for women to have sex was to get pregnant, to please her husband, or for money. Times have changed, yes these are good things.
 

someone2004uk

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Originally posted by madame_zora@Jan 26 2005, 12:44 AM
Someone, Thanks for posting this article. It is obviously written by a fundie, and while I agree with some of the content, I dislike the spin. Yes, Kinsey was an influence on Hugh Hefner, yes the "breakdown of American society" could have some of it's roots there. The thing is, America is not the whole world, or even the most important part of it. It was founded by a dour bunch of Puritans, but they are not the only residents! We are the most backward of the developed countries, which is absurd, unless you take into account the fact that we are so relatively young for a nation. Perhaps as time goes on, we will mature socially. Repressiveness, prejudice, homophobia and the like are extreme immaturity issues, and nothing more. I am aghast that we don't seem to get a clue that these are all the same root issue. While we eagerly shift our hatred from one group to another, we ignore the fact that we are still hating others, and we are still wrong.

The real breakdown of the American family came during WWII when women were introduced into the workforce. Once they could earn money, they were no longer as willing to accept second-class citizen status. No longer was it assumed that an abused woman should stay with her husband, women raising children alone seemed preferable to some than raising them in an unhealthy environment. Many hetero men have simply NOT taken responsibility for chasing women away, or offered any kind of apology for their own bad behavior. Now, if a woman finds herself in a bad marriage, she has the chioce to leave- but the guy has a choice not to be a dick in the first place. (I completely understand how slanted this sounds, and I know women cheat, lie, and cause relational problems too. I am speaking in terms of historical reasons for divorce rates).

Then came Vietman, and we, as a society, came to realise that our leaders could be wrong. We were not following blindly what we were told, at least not all of us. This attitude of questioning authority an commonly accepted norms added fuel to the fire. Women began wanting equal pay, not just a job, but perhaps a career. These are all good things!

Enter the gay liberation- like blacks in the 60's, gays are now the target of outright fear-based hatred amoung the stupid. Steadfastly holding the Bible and swearing it preaches non-acceptance, they blunder through life missing the whole message of God, that we should love one another. There is no cure for stupidity, it is terminal. We can only wait for the unenlightened ones to die, and teach our children better morals. Why would anyone possibly care who someone else fucks?
Is this really an issue of any importance at all? No! Human rights issues are important, not sticking our nose where it doesn't belong.

Lastly, the idea of sex for fun is offensive to fundies. They aren't fun people. They are miserable, think being holy is about suffering, think purity is about self-denial.
Whether hetero or homo, they think you shouldn't have sex for fun, but only to "do your duty to God" by bearing children. Well, we have no shortage of children, we clearly have more than anyone wants to raise and care for (including the self-righteous fundies) and our society has progressed to a level where the infant mortality rate is very low, so fertilizing every egg is simply not needed. Homosexuality has been around since the dawn of man, it's nothing new, it is only our backwards, hillbilly attitude toward it that is. Sex for pleasure is nothing new either (recall "the oldest profession"?), but WOMEN having sex for pleasure is. In the past it was okay for men to have extramarital sex, but the only conceivable reason for women to have sex was to get pregnant, to please her husband, or for money. Times have changed, yes these are good things.
[post=277380]Quoted post[/post]​

Dear Zora, Thankyou for taking the time to write such a thoughtful reply. I to must admit to agree ing to some of the points raised in the article, but like you said, the spin put upon was not.

It's interesting you raised the point of social maturity, The western world seems to have a very backward way of thinking about morals. It's bible preaches love and acceptance, yet many of it's followers use it's words for hatred, but i'm sure this point has been raised here many, many times, hopefully this blind acceptance you mention will slowly dissapate over time.

It would be nice to think that within my lifetime I will see everyone excerise a bit more tolarance towards each other. Allowing others to live their lives the way they want is very important, as long as it doesn't affect the quality of life of others.

Unforuntaly this is where me lack of life experieance shows itself, as much of your comment I haven't pondered quite as much as you may have.

Again, I thank you. It's something for me to think about, which is one of the reasons i joined in the first place. It's always good to get knowledge from people who have lived rather than reading many books.
 

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Well, Mme. Z., families of all varieties have been destroyed by neoliberalism (capitalism as freedom and the resulting spread of "freedom" around the globe) more than anything. Of course, the fundies would never admit that; like all utopians, they have a scapegoat, and you can't shake them.

Of course, many of the fundies are themselves gay. Congressman Ed Schrock (of Marriage Protection Amendment fame) was taped propositioning gay sex. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
 

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I am personally tired of and even quite frightened by the daily fundie-neocon onslaught and scapegoating aimed at ME. We are responsible for everything from the attacks on the World Trade Center to the moral decline of civilization as they would like it to be. I'm sure Iraq, the budget deficit and the Tsunami are all our fault as well. Oh, that's right Pat Robertson, Newt Gingrich and Billy Graham said said everything wrong in the world is our fault. And don't forget....gay marriage is responsible for the collapse of heterosexual (normal) marriage in this country. Yep, that's me, I did it. I made over 50% of the straight marriages in the US end in divorce last year.

The sound you hear is my heart breaking and my soul dying at what has become of this country.
 

someone2004uk

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Originally posted by jonb@Jan 26 2005, 04:37 AM
These are the same people who say male/female sex is boring.
[post=277466]Quoted post[/post]​

There really is no pleasing some people. They find themselves in a bit of a catch 22, they don't want to have sex, but they want to hav children to pass on their fundie "ideals" to.

part of me wants to say they shouldn't breed, but then that would be very closed minded of me.
 

someone2004uk

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Originally posted by KinkGuy@Jan 26 2005, 04:04 AM
I am personally tired of and even quite frightened by the daily fundie-neocon onslaught and scapegoating aimed at ME. We are responsible for everything from the attacks on the World Trade Center to the moral decline of civilization as they would like it to be. I'm sure Iraq, the budget deficit and the Tsunami are all our fault as well. Oh, that's right Pat Robertson, Newt Gingrich and Billy Graham said said everything wrong in the world is our fault. And don't forget....gay marriage is responsible for the collapse of heterosexual (normal) marriage in this country. Yep, that's me, I did it. I made over 50% of the straight marriages in the US end in divorce last year.

The sound you hear is my heart breaking and my soul dying at what has become of this country.
[post=277446]Quoted post[/post]​

Kink, everything is your fault. It's your fault that Barbara Striesand has a big nose, It's your fault that Wham broke up, and it's your fault my tin of beans that have been in the cupboard for months, went off just as I wanted to use them.

But on a more serious note, we, as a society, all have to claim responsiblity for a lot of things, it's not fair that certain people feel they have the right to put the burden onto a small minority, probably because they think that so few of them will fight back.
 

madame_zora

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Kinkguy, so it's all YOUR fault! I was wondering who the gay guy was that was turning all these str8 men into cock-loving whores, now I know. Geez, I doubt if our white women are safe from your charms either.

Jonb, you hit the nail on the head about so many neocons being closeted gays themselves. Definition of homophobia- so afraid of gays you probably are.

Someone, as for the breakdown of the nuclear family, I was merely pointing out that our nostalgia for it is misplaced. It was never what we painted in our story books to begin with. It is my sincerest hope that after we go through the pendulum swings necessary to break our inappropriate social mores, we will come to a place where healthier relationships will provide a source for better families in the long run. God, I am a Utopian, aren't I?
 

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Originally posted by madame_zora@Jan 26 2005, 08:43 AM
God, I am a Utopian, aren't I?
[post=277584]Quoted post[/post]​

My fault too? I will take credit for that one. Now I'm just getting greedy.

They have a vision and an ideal of what they want America and the world to look like. And they are willing to punish, prohibit or kill whatever or whomever doesn't meet the narrow standards of the party's view, keeping in mind that those very same regulations only apply to the "others."
 

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Originally posted by someone2004uk@Jan 26 2005, 08:42 AM
It's your fault that Wham broke up, and it's your fault my tin of beans that have been in the cupboard for months, went off just as I wanted to use them.
[post=277583]Quoted post[/post]​

I made him give a cop a BJ in a Beverly Hills loo as well. That plan didn't quite come together....it was supposed to be ME he was blowing.


Regarding your beans, I enjoyed that one.
 

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Especially when you consider that a lot of homophobic insults border on pornographic in their description of gay sex. The irony being that homophobes also accuse anyone who's comfortable enough with their own sexuality that they're not homophobic of being gay as well. (Teresa Heinz-Kerry protested apartheid, therefore she's black.)
 

madame_zora

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Jon, that's funny, I felt that way about the handling of Clinton's blowjob- the media was much more pornographic than the facts themselves. I think these people just need to get laid. I have seen what you're talking about though with homophobes, if a guy isn't willing to agree with them about how horrible gay people are, then they're considered gay too. Stupidity is contagious.
 
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Probably even a disease.

I'll never say I'm "perfect". My views are "harsh love", which is pretty tough to swallow sometimes, but on this issue. What men do with their lives is NOT my business, only what I do in mine should be of importance unless those guys are breaking the law, even then, it isn't ME that can be the moral superior.

Maybe we should learn to accept other people, if not accept their offers of warm orifaces?
 

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Orca, the problem is, you ARE perfect! Just embrace it, you'll feel better, love.

It doesn't matter to me what someone's orientation is unless I'm planing to have sex with them, then I want to know. I think in almost all cases, people who are judgemental are focusing on others to avoid looking into themselves. Funny, if they knew this, they'd stop looking so ridiculous. I mean, a homophobe is practically wearing a sign on his chest that says "I'm probably gay but shivering in fear at the thought of it".
 

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Originally posted by madame_zora@Jan 27 2005, 07:27 PM
Jon, that's funny, I felt that way about the handling of Clinton's blowjob- the media was much more pornographic than the facts themselves. I think these people just need to get laid. I have seen what you're talking about though with homophobes, if a guy isn't willing to agree with them about how horrible gay people are, then they're considered gay too. Stupidity is contagious.
[post=278073]Quoted post[/post]​
Dawkins said as much about stupidity being contagious. It's called a meme.

As for the media, that's just how they are. At least they didn't report the worst lies about Clinton. Here are some right-wing lies about Clinton that I've heard:

*He had Ron Brown shot and, if that wasn't enough, sabotaged the plane so it would crash.
*He had two teens stabbed and tied to the railroad tracks.
*He regularly had Arkansas cops abduct women for him to rape and kill.
*He has a thing for underage female prostitutes.
*The Clintons are gay and their marriage is a sham. (And yes, I am aware that this contradicts the last two claims.)

When George Bush said he would "change the tone", what he meant was that Republicans would go after Gore as much as they went after Clinton. After all, Republicans created the tone!
 

madame_zora

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Jonb, I had only recently heard those ridiculous claims. I had no idea the repubs would stoop to that, but how can I be surprised? I think if the Clinton's marriage was a sham (which it could have been), it was a mutually agreed on thing and they were political partners. That falls into the category of their business, as far as I'm concerned, although Bill seemed to have a few sincere regrets about his affairs. Perhaps he was only sad about the fact that they had been made public and therefore had hurt his family, but I had always suspected that they were not intimate. It's not unheard of that couples drift apart over time, but choose to remain life partners, I'd never judge their circumstances since I have no idea what's going on between them. But to call him a serial killer? Jeez, that's desperate!
 

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Originally posted by madame_zora@Jan 26 2005, 09:43 AM
Kinkguy, so it's all YOUR fault! I was wondering who the gay guy was that was turning all these str8 men into cock-loving whores, now I know. Geez, I doubt if our white women are safe from your charms either.

Jonb, you hit the nail on the head about so many neocons being closeted gays themselves. Definition of homophobia- so afraid of gays you probably are.

Someone, as for the breakdown of the nuclear family, I was merely pointing out that our nostalgia for it is misplaced. It was never what we painted in our story books to begin with. It is my sincerest hope that after we go through the pendulum swings necessary to break our inappropriate social mores, we will come to a place where healthier relationships will provide a source for better families in the long run. God, I am a Utopian, aren't I?
[post=277584]Quoted post[/post]​
This reminds of of s conversation with a lady who is about 80. She was laughing and said all these people keep talking about the good old days. She said that I don't want to go bck to the good old days when I had an outdoor privy, no runing water, fire place that burned one side and froze the other. She named some other things.

She had a point. Our productive life is always in the future, never in the past. The past can't be changed. It can be remembered fondly, but if all we do is remember the past, we are past creating and our lives are already over. We are just waiting for the hearse.
 

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Originally posted by jonb+Jan 28 2005, 06:05 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jonb &#064; Jan 28 2005, 06:05 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-madame_zora@Jan 27 2005, 07:27 PM
Jon, that&#39;s funny, I felt that way about the handling of Clinton&#39;s blowjob- the media was much more pornographic than the facts themselves. I think these people just need to get laid. I have seen what you&#39;re talking about though with homophobes, if a guy isn&#39;t willing to agree with them about how horrible gay people are, then they&#39;re considered gay too. Stupidity is contagious.
[post=278073]Quoted post[/post]​
Dawkins said as much about stupidity being contagious. It&#39;s called a meme.

As for the media, that&#39;s just how they are. At least they didn&#39;t report the worst lies about Clinton. Here are some right-wing lies about Clinton that I&#39;ve heard:

*He had Ron Brown shot and, if that wasn&#39;t enough, sabotaged the plane so it would crash.
*He had two teens stabbed and tied to the railroad tracks.
*He regularly had Arkansas cops abduct women for him to rape and kill.
*He has a thing for underage female prostitutes.
*The Clintons are gay and their marriage is a sham. (And yes, I am aware that this contradicts the last two claims.)

When George Bush said he would "change the tone", what he meant was that Republicans would go after Gore as much as they went after Clinton. After all, Republicans created the tone&#33;
[post=278365]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]
I&#39;m from Arkansas, and yes those rumors circulated all the time from the time he entered politics. But Clinton was relelected time and time again. Arakansans are like the rest of the nation, they either hate him or adore him. Most Arkansans knew from the get go that all the hype about the Clintons was just that hype.

I think the real reason for the hatred of Clinton is that due to a bad translation of the Bible, it has been discovered that it was Bill Clinton who had Jesus nailed to the cross. He is older than he looks. Hillary kind of liked Jesus. I think that is what caused the rift in their marriage. She tried to get Bill to let Jesus go instead of Barabas.

Barabas is of course still alive and kicking. He ran the Republican campaign this year. You know the one. Where Bush and Cheney were for cilvil unions, but that was OK with the religous right. But so was John Kerry. Now that was not all right. And the Marriage Amendment document has been put with the Bible on the back shelf to collect dust until the next election when both will be dragged out. There is a reason that Bible looks so new&#33; Look for the mildew stains the next election&#33;
 

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Originally posted by madame_zora@Jan 26 2005, 12:44 AM
Homosexuality has been around since the dawn of man, it&#39;s nothing new, it is only our backwards, hillbilly attitude toward it that is. Sex for pleasure is nothing new either (recall "the oldest profession"?)
[post=277380]Quoted post[/post]​

"If all persons with any trace of homosexual history, or those who were predominantly homosexual, were eliminated from the population today, there is no reason for believing that the incidence of the homosexual in the next generation would be materially reduced. The homosexual has been a significant part of human sexual activity ever since the dawn of history, primarily because it is an expression of capacities that are basic in the human animal."

Dr Alfred C. Kinsey
 

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You&#39;re right, Jana. Not only is homosexuality as old as man, but outside of Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition, I can&#39;t see much in the way of cultural baggage going against homosexuals. Oh, I can see plenty of cultural baggage going against certain types of homosexual relationships, and even double standards (tops and bottoms), but not against homosexuality altogether.
 

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Originally posted by jonb@Jan 29 2005, 09:06 PM
You&#39;re right, Jana. Not only is homosexuality as old as man, but outside of Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition, I can&#39;t see much in the way of cultural baggage going against homosexuals. Oh, I can see plenty of cultural baggage going against certain types of homosexual relationships, and even double standards (tops and bottoms), but not against homosexuality altogether.
[post=278600]Quoted post[/post]​


Yeah, we&#39;re just the lucky ones&#33; I think there may be some small cultures that are more enlightened, but overall the vast majority of the world is still goverened by religious tenets that discriminate against either women, gays, classes of people, or all of the above. I don&#39;t know what the Muslim view on homosexuality is, for example, but I do know it&#39;s an unpleasant world for a woman to live in. I was starting to have more hope for us during the Clinton years, but now I think we are just too backward as a culture to be ready for that. God, I hate living in the dark ages, and knowing it.
 

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One thing to consider is that Western ideas about discrimination don&#39;t really apply to other civilizations. You see, the West in general, the U.S. in particular, places a lot of emphasis on personal advancement. Outside of the West, the colon feels no illusions that it could become a brain. (And that doesn&#39;t include certain users&#39; craniorectal inversion.)
 

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Yeah, I must admit to being rather fond of the personal advancement opportunities, I can&#39;t understand the concept of being satisfied with my lot in life if it was one of inferiority. Guess I would feel differently if I were raised in such an environment, but I&#39;m pretty grateful I was not. It could easily have happened, I have often reflected on how my life would have been different had my parents met in India instead of here. Maybe I&#39;m too harsh with my expectations of where I think we should be, but it seems that with all the advantages we have, we could be doing better.

Craniorectal inversions, Jonb you are priceless&#33;
 

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Yeah, well, the metaphor about the colon and the brain still applies; without a colon, you&#39;d have to drink several litres of water a day, even if you aren&#39;t an athlete.
 

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Originally posted by madame_zora+Jan 29 2005, 07:09 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(madame_zora &#064; Jan 29 2005, 07:09 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-jonb@Jan 29 2005, 09:06 PM
You&#39;re right, Jana. Not only is homosexuality as old as man, but outside of Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition, I can&#39;t see much in the way of cultural baggage going against homosexuals. Oh, I can see plenty of cultural baggage going against certain types of homosexual relationships, and even double standards (tops and bottoms), but not against homosexuality altogether.
[post=278600]Quoted post[/post]​


Yeah, we&#39;re just the lucky ones&#33; I think there may be some small cultures that are more enlightened, but overall the vast majority of the world is still goverened by religious tenets that discriminate against either women, gays, classes of people, or all of the above. I don&#39;t know what the Muslim view on homosexuality is, for example, but I do know it&#39;s an unpleasant world for a woman to live in. I was starting to have more hope for us during the Clinton years, but now I think we are just too backward as a culture to be ready for that. God, I hate living in the dark ages, and knowing it.
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Homosexuality in the Muslim culture is a very big no no. To be caught in most Muslim cultures being gay is much more severe then here in the Western world where Chrsitianity prevails.
 

jonb

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From what I understand, it depends; in a lot of these fundie countries, they&#39;ll forgive you as long as the passive partner hasn&#39;t yet been circumcised.
 

jonb

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In Muslim cultures, circumcision can be anywhere from seven days to thirteen years, the age when Ishmael was circumcised. Men who convert after puberty may opt not to be circumcised.
 

madame_zora

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I have always wondered what an operation on the penis has to do with dedication to a god? Does anyone know how this originated? It seems a common theme between the major religions, so I&#39;m curious as to why.