Korean Pride and Shame - VA Shooting

[transformer_99]

Like any nationality, those that excel and uplift are recognized by their nation. Those that shame are either ignored or outright denegrated and disowned, unless it's considered heroic.

 

[Lex]

It is unfortunate that it is likely to exaserbate the country's xenophobia epidemic.

Sadly, yes.

Like any nationality, those that excel and uplift are recognized by their nation. Those that shame are either ignored or outright denegrated and disowned, unless it's considered heroic.

This is a sweeping generalization. Please provide examples.

 

[Principessa]

I didn't want them to feel bad, but I did expect them to which seems not to be the case. I think as a younger generation they just have that ability to only focus on good things. As a Mets fan through the horrible 90's, I talked similarly as they do but instead of pride in a nation it was with my team. The Mets were horrible for the most part in the 90's but I still spoke as much good as I could whenever an opportunity would present itself. Then when the Braves would beat the Mets 16-0 I would brush it off and ignore it. I think this is what they're doing.

Again, its not a big issue and its not like I want them to feel bad. I was simply curious but now I slightly understand them a little more.

As a life long NY Mets fan, I get what you are trying to say but that is a lousy analogy! :redface: You can't compare lost lives to lost baseball games even if you bet the rent and lost.

I live in New York City and most of my friends are Korean. I hang out with my Korean people a lot and its usually 7-10 of us who just hang out and play poker, or go out to shoot pool, bowl, etc. They're all overly proud of being Korean, and when any Korean does something good they take immense pride in it, whether it be Korean scientists cloning, Korean baseball players, etc. So I was curious now that a horrible event involving a Korean male has taken place, what were their feelings if any. Please define overly proud.

I don't know if it surprises me but they all claimed that they weren't following this, didn't know, etc. When I told them it was a Korean 23 year old who killed over 30 people they didn't have very strong reactions, so I just bluntly asked "Does this effect your Korean pride at all?" and they all brushed it off saying one bad person doesn't drag down a whole nation of people. Why should they admit to feeling shame?
Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with that. But in their cases where they praise to no end any Korean who accomplishes something, I would think they should also feel hurt or bothered when a member of their people does something shameful like this. It doesn't bother me that they choose to ignore the negative, but I'm just wondering if what they're doing is normal or should over zealous patriots feel shamed when a person does something like this shooting?
It is traditional in most Asian cultures to physically distance yourself from one who brings shame and dishonor. It happens in families when children marry outside the community hence being disowned, it happens in corporations - one could be demoted, not get plumb assignments, or fired for what n the US would barely warrant a snicker. Yes, their behavior is normal.

Do you remember the DC sniper shootings a few year ago? Black Americans were shocked and horrified when it was announced the sniper was Black. Traditionally snipers, mass murderers, and serial killers in this country had been White, psychopathic, loners, victims of child abuse, often from broken homes. John Allen Muhammad, the sniper did not fit any known FBI profile of a sniper in the US.
He was an embarassment to our people. So much so my dad called me at work to tell me they caught the sniper and he's Black; my dad never calls me at work. Later it was announced that he was a naturalized citizen and had actually been born in Jamaica. You have no idea what a relief this was to myself and my father as well as millions of other Black Americans. Why? Because he was not one of "our people."

I hated when White people used to ask me if I believed OJ was guilty or not. I am not the mouth piece for Black America. You are doing the same thing to your Korean friends.

David Berkowitz a.k.a. Son of Sam was an embarassment to millions of Jewish Americans. Until it was announced he was adopted, then Jews everywhere could breathe a sigh of relief.

This may sound trite but to you but it's the truth. Mentioning the Cho Seung-Hui to your Korean friends is kinda like rubbing a puppies nose in another dogs accident. Cho Seung-Hui's actions are neither their fault nor their responsibility and they should not be held accountable for them.

Your friends have seen and heard the news and are doing what comes naturally...ignoring the offending party, namely the shooter. I'm sure they have all said silent prayers for the souls and families of the deceased. My advice is simple "drop it." Seriously, don't bring it up again unless they do.

njqt466

PS - Tiger Woods is Black even when he loses, even though he is multi-racial we claim him. He belongs to us. :biggrin1: :smile: :biggrin1:

 

[B_NineInchCock_160IQ]

Pretty much all people are like this. The last tenant of this apartment was Irish and its hilarious in the Irish magazines he left lying around how they go on and on and on and on about obscure achievements of the Irish people from decades or centuries ago. Or how much they'll celebrate certain Irish actors or athletes that have made it in Hollywood or the pro leagues.

Everyone gets on America's case for taking any pride in anything... yet everyone does the same exact thing... and at least America has something to talk about. I think the resentment stems less from the fact that many Americans think of their country as the best and more from the fact that they're so close to being right.

Anywho... as far as unique perspectives on this recent tragedy.. I'm still collecting my own thoughts at the moment. But I grew up in Centreville (where this kid grew up), know lots of people at Virginia Tech including at least one that was killed, and now I am living in South Korea. Most of the people I have talked to about it here at least have heard the news. The Korean government was quick to offer condolences, as well. Even though this guy had been living in the US since he was 10 years old.

 

[rawbone8]

My wife was shocked that the killer was Korean. She tells me that there is a lot of consternation on message boards in Korea about what kind of parents could raise a monster like this. Shame is indeed felt, to a degree. Distancing is also in practice, by blaming the parents.

It seems they don't have anyone left around to blame, now. According to what my wife has seen on Korean news/blogs, the killer's parents have taken their own lives as a double suicide. I haven't seen that in western news yet.

More misery.

 

[Pirate Wench]

Firstly...I just saw an article last night that the gunman's parents are in the hospital from the stress and shock and God knows what other emotions go thru you when your kid does something unspeakable.
They did not commit suicide.
Killer's parents hospitalised 'with shock'

And njqt466 mentioned what I was about to re: why your Korean friends didn't have much to say.
I was going to say perhaps it is a cultural thing to not discuss someone who had commited a heinous crime.
Perhaps the criminal is thought of as not worth the energy to acknowledge.
I wouldn't even mention it to them again.

 

[rawbone8]

Firstly...I just saw an article last night that the gunman's parents are in the hospital from the stress and shock and God knows what other emotions go thru you when your kid does something unspeakable.
They did not commit suicide.
Killer's parents hospitalised 'with shock'

And njqt466 mentioned what I was about to re: why your Korean friends didn't have much to say.
I was going to say perhaps it is a cultural thing to not discuss someone who had commited a heinous crime.
Perhaps the criminal is thought of as not worth the energy to acknowledge.
I wouldn't even mention it to them again.

It was unwise to post unconfirmed info. Thanks for the factual update.

 

[swordfishME]

Actually this guy shot up the place in retaliation of Nineinch moving to Korea.

The above statement makes as much sense as the orignal poster's assertion that all Koreans are somehow responsible for this (and even though he phrased it differently, that was what he was trying to get at).

This event is a huge tragedy. Like another poster said in this thread earlier, nut jobs are found in all races and societies. This has nothing to do with Koreans (or Nineinch for that matter).

 

[B_Hung Muscle]

The Korean community in DC yesterday staged a show of support for the families of those killed and injured in the tragedy. They are also raising money to help support the victims and their families.

 

[meatpackingbubba]

This is a HUMAN tragedy, one in which we all share.

 

[Countryguy63]

Guns don't kill people, koreans kill people.

OUCH!!

Uncalled for IMO

 

[DC_DEEP]

The shooter had lived in the U.S. for the last 15 years, since he was 8.
His actions are not a reflection of Korea, or Koreans. It is a result of growing up in the U.S. of A . Where guns are plentifull.

I was born in the US. I grew up in the US. I have lived in the US for almost 49 years. I have never shot anything but paper targets. What an idiotic thing for you to say.

Guns don't kill people, koreans kill people.

If you intended that to be funny, you failed miserably. You are an ass for typing it, doubly so for clicking "Submit Reply."

 

[B_NineInchCock_160IQ]

I was born in the US. I grew up in the US. I have lived in the US for almost 49 years. I have never shot anything but paper targets. What an idiotic thing for you to say.
If you intended that to be funny, you failed miserably. You are an ass for typing it, doubly so for clicking "Submit Reply."

Agreed. Both dumb statements. Regarding the first statement, there have been shootings that have taken place in Korea before, by Koreans raised in Korea. The latter statement barely deserves a response.

 

[B_NineInchCock_160IQ]

I've spoken to a number of Koreans about this now. In general most of them have expressed disbelief or shock that someone they see as one of their own could have done such a thing. That's the general consensus, other than that I haven't seen much of a reaction other than a normal expression of "that's too bad."

 

[madame_zora]

The Korean community in DC yesterday staged a show of support for the families of those killed and injured in the tragedy. They are also raising money to help support the victims and their families.

I think that's a beautiful gesture. How better to not allow yourself to be categorised.

I posted about this recently, but my cousin came home from Korea with a Korean wife, and she displayed this "nationalism" that's been referenced. I didn't take it as anything more than a pretty natural reaction to suddenly being in America where our nationalism is being shoved down your throat. She just wanted us to know that Koreans are valuable people too, which is a good lesson. I commented on liking a pair of sandals she was wearing, and she managed to get out in broken English "made better in Korea". She later gave then to me, and I wore them until the fell to shreads several years later- her adult shoes fit me at 10 years old!

I grew up around guns, my step-father was a hunter and was very good about gun safety and teaching me that the guns were off limits. He made the point so well that I've rarely touched them since. I learned to shoot a bow and arrow, although I never shot anything but targets. He taught me to fish too.

Guns alone are not the problem, but young people having access to them is. In so many of these school shootings, the kids gets them from right at home, or from a friend who has easy access to them at home. This is unacceptable. Parents are not wholly responsible for every move their kids make, but they're damned sure responsible for knowing if their kid is severely depressed, overly angry, or that delicious combination of the two. To just not have a clue what's going on with your own kid is what is ridiculous, and if there's any one place I'd like to lay blame, it's on our culture which doesn't promote good parenting to the actual parents, but lays the burden everywhere else.

We can't deny that shootings in schools are becomming more and more regular, it's absurd to just deny that it's happening. It's a few "nutjobs" doing them, yes- but it IS becomming a phenomena. Only the daft refuse to recognise obvious patterns.

I think I know what our problem is here with guns, and it's our cultural dissociative fugue with rights and responsibilities. Everyone wants rights, but very few are interested in holding themselves accountable for the responsibilities accociated with those rights. We have two examples of better successes abroad- Canada, where there are more guns per capita than here, with less violence, and the UK where there are far fewer guns, and less violence. It's just redneck little America where we have lots of guns and lots of killings with them. Not to mention our sad-o emo culture that glorifies suicide, yeesh.

Two things:

1) I don't think anyone objects to responsible gun ownership. I would personally be in favor of a seven day hold period, during which time a background check could be done, a pamphlet on gun safety could be given out and a basic training course could be required. I don't want people owning guns who have no fucking idea what to do with them. I'd like to KNOW that a licensed gun owner knows how the damned thing works, and can pass a basic safety test. We require this for a driver's license, which also risks lives.

2) It's very hard to use the actual second amendment to support gun ownership of non-militia citizens. The argument itself falls flat on its face, if it weren't for the money the NRA raises to support this distortion of the truth, it would have been a non-issue long ago. Mind you, I am personally ambiguous on the issue, but hearing the second amendment argument drives me up a tree- it's indefensible and absurd when you read the actual amendment. Nobody buys a handgun to join a state militia, and the few creepy groups of guys who play soldier in the woods claiming to be private militias have never ceased to frighten me when I see them interviewed. Extremists are dangerous, and while I can forsee a time when a private militia may in fact be a good idea, I doubt any of these people have the ability to organise anything larger than a neighborhood block watch.



Mindseye, I'm glad to hear you're safe. I thought of you as I was watching this unfold on the news.

 

[HotBulge]

This is a HUMAN tragedy, one in which we all share.

Amen.

The fact that the Cho is Korean/Korean-American is so circumstantial and insignificant relative to the fact that he was a psychologically troubled individual.

 

[DGirl]

My wife was shocked that the killer was Korean. She tells me that there is a lot of consternation on message boards in Korea about what kind of parents could raise a monster like this. Shame is indeed felt, to a degree. Distancing is also in practice, by blaming the parents.

It seems they don't have anyone left around to blame, now. According to what my wife has seen on Korean news/blogs, the killer's parents have taken their own lives as a double suicide. I haven't seen that in western news yet.

More misery.

Are you sure of this? If so, that is TOO sad.

 

[naughty]

Are you sure of this? If so, that is TOO sad.

No from what I have just heard his parents are now hospitalized for extreme shock. Which we all can understand. It is so sad for all concerned. I have been thinking about two asian interns I had a few years back who were at Ivy league schools and suffering tremendously from being made fun of and shunned by classmates. One of them dealt with it by swallowing the problems and blaming herself. The other who was first generation Korean, was extremely depressed and angry because when she tried to tell her parents what she was going through they continued to tell her over and over that she wasnt working hard enough or implying that the reactions she was getting from others must have been something she was doing and would not let her come home. The child spent the day many times curled in a ball on the sofa in my office. I think that many immigrant parents come here believing that America is a land of milk and honey and though they may succeed monetarily their children may have trouble navigating the waters of social interchange in addition to carrying on their backs the extreme expectations of parents and other family members. I do not know if this was the case here but it bears thinking about.

 

[DGirl]

Thanks for the news on the guys parents, naughty. The young man took enough lives. He should not be able to take more. His parents did the best they thought they could to raise him.

I lived in many areas in my short 8 years of travel. But, Japan ( Asia), was

the most strange. Most of the women and men I met their were like

children. Though most had higher ed., they were still like children. That

was really crazy to me. I would have to explain to them the difference

between Black and White to them. Though, the Men would GET it.

Because, when they went to school in the USA, they got HATE thrown at

them like a non-White person usually gets. But, only a few of the

Japanese women had that experience. So, they were still so confused

from both sides. The Japanese mens side and the USA persons side.

 

[B_big dirigible]

I didn't take it as anything more than a pretty natural reaction to suddenly being in America where our nationalism is being shoved down your throat. She just wanted us to know that Koreans are valuable people too, which is a good lesson.

I used to work with an American of Korean extraction. He told me that his family had emigrated from China to Korea some four centuries ago. In Korea they were still known as "the foreigners". I don't think a relatively mild word like "nationalism" really summarizes the situation well. The smug insularity of some asiatic cultures is almost beyond the comprehension of post-Enlightenment era Westerners. Life in the Hermit Kingdom must be very poor preparation for life in the United States. The guy I knew had been here for years and was still trying to figure it out. (He'd talk to me because we were alumni of the same school.)

We can't deny that shootings in schools are becomming more and more regular, it's absurd to just deny that it's happening. It's a few "nutjobs" doing them, yes- but it IS becomming a phenomena. Only the daft refuse to recognise obvious patterns.

The question is causality, not correlation. The increase in atrocities correlates with, among other things, the increase in gun control laws. However, the causal relationship is not so clear. There are several competing theories, each backed by an extensive body of literature; do gun-control laws lead to more atrocities, or do atrocities lead to more gun-control laws? Or do they constantly feed each other? As always, none of this literature constitutes evidence, let alone proof.

Canada, where there are more guns per capita than here,

Huh? The countries with lots of firepower in the hands of civilians are generally reckoned to be Switzerland, Finland, Israel, the US, and (until recently) Australia and New Zealand, more-or-less in that order. Canada, Sweden, and some others have significant quantities as well. Other countries trail 'way behind; for better or worse.

with less violence,

You know of the Seattle and Vancouver comparative studies? I won't mention the most significant finding here, as it will just set off more of the ritual LPSG shrieking. But despite being a political football, there were some interesting results.

and the UK where there are far fewer guns, and less violence.

The trends in Merrie England are not so good, though. Even with most guns effectively banned, gun crime, along with general hooliganism, is on the rise.

It's just redneck little America where we have lots of guns and lots of killings with them.

But the problem doesn't seem to be well localized to "redneck" areas.

Two things:

1) I don't think anyone objects to responsible gun ownership.

Some very noisy political pressure groups do indeed object to any gun ownership except for the military and police, and they're backed by big money (Joyce Foundation, some government agencies, and, so far as we know, organized crime, which is always in favor of prohibition laws - they're its major source of income). Some don't even think the police should be armed. Not all object to all gun ownership, of course. And some do, but claim they don't. An internal memo of Handgun Control Inc was leaked a few years ago; it outlined HCI's plot for the public's disarmament and the program of deceptions considered necessary to get it enacted in the US.

The leaked memo could be a fake, of course.

I would personally be in favor of a seven day hold period, during which time a background check could be done, a pamphlet on gun safety could be given out and a basic training course could be required.

That's one of the things which has been in effect pretty much everywhere in the US for a few years, and which has yet to be shown to be in any way effective. Recall the lamenting of that fact, the manifest uselessness of our gun-control laws in general, when the "assault-weapon ban" was allowed to sunset. It was seriously proposed that, although totally useless, it be re-enacted to "send a message". The only message that would actually send is that we can lose our basic civil rights while gaining nothing at all - like safety - in return. Not much of a bargain, I'd say.

In practice, the "training course" has been used as a pocket veto. Just don't offer the course, then nobody can buy any guns. Brilliant. Again, there are exceptions. But like most anything else, if it can be abused, it will be. Massachusetts used to do a similar trick with license renewals. They had a high school girl come in part-time in the afternoons and process all the renewals for the entire state. Of course she was always months behind. It didn't matter, because the old license was good until the renewal was issued, even if it officially expired after the renewal form was mailed in. That was changed with the 1998 law; when the license expired, that was it. The state didn't do anything useful, like, say, hire two high school girls to try to keep up. Pocket veto, again. A gun owner had to remember to send in his renewal about six months early, or risk becoming an instant criminal when his license expired.

2) It's very hard to use the actual second amendment to support gun ownership of non-militia citizens. The argument itself falls flat on its face, if it weren't for the money the NRA raises to support this distortion of the truth, it would have been a non-issue long ago.

Unfortunately, the argument predates the NRA by nearly a century. There's nothing innately absurd about the case. Much ink has been spilled on the problem, not all of it rubbish. I wrote a paper myself about historical evidence that the dead white guys not only intended for Americans, in the militia or not, to be armed, they relied on it. And not just with those feeble rifles, either, but with artillery - the strategic weapon of the day.

Most claims that it's solely a militia issue are based on obviously fudged readings of the court cases. The 1939 Miller case, certainly no model of clarity, is often further obfuscated by deliberate misstatement. Miller's significance is that it was the last time the 2nd Amendment was considered by the Supreme Court. I just saw a writeup on it last week - entirely bogus, every word; misleading, and meant to be. It's amazing that activists are still trying to pull that crap on us - hell, the complete text of the decision is online, and anyone can read it for himself. It's even in English, with none of that pig-Latin lawyers love to inflict on us.

the few creepy groups of guys who play soldier in the woods claiming to be private militias have never ceased to frighten me when I see them interviewed.

Never met any, myself. I suspect that they only televise the interviews which are sufficiently scary. It reminds me of some interviews local TV did after Tyson bit a piece of his opponent's ear off. Reporters lurked around local boxing academies, hoping to interview neaderthals. But all they got were greely-looking guys who could discuss the philosophic dimensions of boxing for, apparently, hours. Hmmm. So much for institutionalized violence in America.

The other guys playing soldier in the woods are in re-enactment societies. The big deal is their meticulous reproduction of uniforms and equipment. I knew a couple of guys in a re-enactment society of a French regiment, here during the Revolution. Their regiment was at a speech given by Ronald Reagan, and the Secret Service came around and confiscated the flints for their flintlocks.
__________

So, have a nice trip?