Kosovo Declares Independence

hotbtminla

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faceking

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faceking

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http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/18/world/europe/18kosovo.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

Thankfully the US has an expert foreign policy team in place to prevent this from becoming an international crisis with far-reaching, potentially disastrous implications. Cough.

Let me help ya... hypocrite:

Of all the whoppers told by former President Clinton in his Chris Wallace interview, perhaps the most outrageous was his claim that he was involved in “trying to stop a genocide in Kosovo...” In fact, Clinton’s bombing of the former Yugoslavia killed more people than died in this “genocide.” And his policy benefited Osama bin Laden and the global Jihad.
In the year before the bombing, some 2,000 people had been killed in a civil war in Kosovo. A conservative estimate is that 6,000 were killed by U.S. and NATO bombs.




It’s strange as well that Clinton complained to Wallace about the “neocons” attacking him when many of the same neocons in 1999 supported Clinton’s war on Yugoslavia. The war was never approved by the U.N. or the U.S. Congress, and in fact violated the War Powers Act.
 

dong20

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Let me help ya... hypocrite:

Of all the whoppers told by former President Clinton in his Chris Wallace interview, perhaps the most outrageous was his claim that he was involved in “trying to stop a genocide in Kosovo...” In fact, Clinton’s bombing of the former Yugoslavia killed more people than died in this “genocide.” And his policy benefited Osama bin Laden and the global Jihad.
In the year before the bombing, some 2,000 people had been killed in a civil war in Kosovo. A conservative estimate is that 6,000 were killed by U.S. and NATO bombs.

It’s strange as well that Clinton complained to Wallace about the “neocons” attacking him when many of the same neocons in 1999 supported Clinton’s war on Yugoslavia. The war was never approved by the U.N. or the U.S. Congress, and in fact violated the War Powers Act.

???

I think the OP was being sarcastic, cough.:rolleyes:
 

the_reverend

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Happy Birthday Kosovo. It's nice to see another free independent country... Now if the US can just leave then alone, they may actually have a chance...

um, i'd say they stand a far likelier chance if Serbia and Russia leave them the hell alone. for which the US could prove a useful ally.

but rock on Kosovo! about damn time you got to be your own country. :cool:
 

musclekid

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Let me help ya... hypocrite:
In the year before the bombing, some 2,000 people had been killed in a civil war in Kosovo. A conservative estimate is that 6,000 were killed by U.S. and NATO bombs.

First: This is NOT a defense of Clinton!

That said:

6,000?! 6,000 is a huge number and sounds crazy from the start.

Everything I've found so far says under 600!
 

hotbtminla

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First: This is NOT a defense of Clinton!

That said:

6,000?! 6,000 is a huge number and sounds crazy from the start.

Everything I've found so far says under 600!

Musclekid - you're right, Faceking is full of shit.

His whole post is a word-for-word regurg from some arch conservative "non-partisan" watchdog group which I found when doing my own research last night. I assume he's either the author or just takes whatever they say at face value.

The numbers he quoted are more in line with what the Milosevic government claimed. According to International Tribunal on the Former Yugoslavia, NATO, the US State Dept - among others - the figures are no more than 1,500 civilians killed in all of Yugoslavia by the airstrikes. The estimate on the number of Kosovars killed by the Serbs before the war is unknown but estimated between 6,000-12,000 (again, by the ITFY) and the US State Dept figure is 10,000.

Other inaccuracies (or at least false implications) in his post noted in blue:

Of all the whoppers told by former President Clinton in his Chris Wallace interview, perhaps the most outrageous was his claim that he was involved in “trying to stop a genocide in Kosovo...” And the other reason to go to war with Yugoslavia was...? In fact, Clinton’s bombing of the former Yugoslavia killed more people than died in this “genocide.” According to Serbia. And his policy benefited Osama bin Laden and the global Jihad. So did the policies of Bush, Reagan, Carter, etc. bin Laden's said his inspiration for destroying the WTC came from the war in Lebanon in 82. Want to blame that on Clinton too? In the year before the bombing, some 2,000 people had been killed in a civil war in Kosovo. According to the International Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia the correct figure is between 5,000-12,000 (according to the US State Dept its 10,000). There were also between 250,000-500,000 refugees.
Neither figure takes into account roughly 100,000 people who are "missing." But I'm sure they've just been hiding in the woods for the past 10 years, or maybe in a large hole that's been covered in dirt to protect them. A conservative estimate is that 6,000 were killed by U.S. and NATO bombs. Again, according to Serbia, and this is their liberal estimate, not their conservative estimate. According to NATO the number is less than 1,500 civilians killed in all of Yugoslavia, not just in Kosovo.

It’s strange as well that Clinton complained to Wallace about the “neocons” attacking him when many of the same neocons in 1999 supported Clinton’s war on Yugoslavia. There were neocons who supported the war in Kosovo (they like wars). However there was intense opposition from Republicans. I agree Clinton is prone to convenient memory, but implying that he wasn't attacked on this is wrong. After all, he got America involved in a war against a tyrannical dictator who posed no direct threat to the US! Republicans hate that shit. The war was never approved by the U.N. or the U.S. Congress, and in fact violated the War Powers Act. The war was never put to the UN because Russia and China would have vetoed it. Russia has a long history of supporting Serbia, and the last thing either country wants is "sanctioned" separatism. NATO acted outside the purview of the UN, which was at the time hotly debated and possibly illegal (NATO was created to fight the Soviet Union after all, and never before instigated hostile activities). The war was approved by Congress when they passed resolutions authorizing the use of "air and missile strikes in cooperation with NATO against Yugoslavia." Whether or not it violated the War Powers Act is open to debate - hence it was never proven to be in violation - because it was couched as a humanitarian mission.


I'm not a Clinton apologist. I strongly opposed his policies of "selective" humanitarianism because I believe that the US made an awful statement to the rest of the world when it chose to do nothing about Bosnia (for many years) and Rwanda (ever). And I believe his action in Kosovo was in part self-serving because he wanted a show of power following his impeachment. But at least he didn't spend trillions of dollars and commit 150,000 troops to Kosovo. What I was indicating in my sarcastic initial comment was that under George W. Bush US foreign policy has taken a great leap backward, and unfortunately it is his team that now has to deal with the ramifications of an independent Kosovo.
 

Hakunamatata

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16 months after independence Kosovo is on the edge of humanitarian disaster. Half of the " country " is without electricity and they are basically living on US donations while drug dealers are distributing drugs to the rest of the Europe.

A process about Kosovo's independence legality in International court of justice to start alter this year.
 

B_dimaniak

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I don't get why Kosovo albanians and Chechens are rebels while people in Northern Ireland, Basque country, Abkhazia and Ossetia are separatists?
 

vince

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I don't get why Kosovo albanians and Chechens are rebels while people in Northern Ireland, Basque country, Abkhazia and Ossetia are separatists?

For the same reason some terrorists are freedom fighters and some are, well, terrorists. Depends on the point of view and who you support.

NATO did the bombing to head off another Srebrenica or Sarajevo. The horror of that conflict was fresh and the collective guilt at not stopping it earlier was still strong.
 
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Hakunamatata

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For the same reason some terrorists are freedom fighters and some are, well, terrorists. Depends on the point of view and who you support.

NATO did the bombing to head off another Srebrenica or Sarajevo. The horror of that conflict was fresh and the collective guilt at not stopping it earlier was still strong.

But in the end they got something even worse. Since Serbian police and military was replaced with KFOR and UN peace keepers 200 000 Serbs were basically forced to move to Serbia, their houses were destroyed and those who stayed live in Ghettos now. Not to mention every week one Serb is killed in Kosovo.
Also there is an investigation going on about Albanians kidnapping Serbs ( over 1500 ) and taking their organs in Northern Albania after UN and KFOR forces came.