Lack of diversity in LGBTQ+ tv shows and how it has an effect in the real world

[wsnki07]

1. I don’t have to do anything
2. Why don’t you do some actual research and find out why
3. You’re using semantics and fallacy to make your point, a point.
a. Your point being purely speculative
and not nuanced at all.
b. You’re working from a flawed
understanding of world history
4. Google is free, so is google scholar
5. Since you’re so passionate about this subject you shouldn’t mind looking into empirical, peer reviewed, scientific and historical research and data on this subject.

I stan a woke king! We know gaslighting and bad faith arguments when it's apparent.

 

[wsnki07]

Sports and acting are not the same. Sports is a physical skill that has easier measurable results than acting. How you receive a performance is often looked at subjectively and colored by personal biases. An athlete scoring a point over another athlete, beating a time, etc is not.

That being said, you don’t have to go too far back in history to find a time where people WERE excluded because of race. Tiger Woods couldn’t play at certain golf courses because of his race. TIGER WOODS.

The gatekeepers realized these athletes of color were outperforming many of their white peers. That made the sports more interesting, and if they didn’t start allowing POC to compete, they would lose their audience and lose money. Also, with clear, measurable results, it’s hard to justify excluding someone from a sport without it pointing to race. That’s why sports is so diverse now.

One thing I do want to highlight about athletes are how they were penalized and often faced backlash whenever they openly spoke about racism both within and outside of their fields.

Whether its Lebron James being told to "shut up and dribble" by (we dont know her)

Colin Kaepernick being ousted for kneeling as a protest, even though it was the peaceful protests that many of the naysayers claimed they wanted due to the "violence" at BLM protests.

The William Sisters(especially Serena) dealt with it in every aspect on and off the field.

 

[deleted464787]

One thing I do want to highlight about athletes are how they were penalized and often faced backlash whenever they openly spoke about racism both within and outside of their fields.

Whether its Lebron James being told to "shut up and dribble" by (we dont know her)

Colin Kaepernick being ousted for kneeling as a protest, even though it was the peaceful protests that many of the naysayers claimed they wanted due to the "violence" at BLM protests.

The William Sisters(especially Serena) dealt with it in every aspect on and off the field.

This is not because people didn’t agree with their cause. It’s not like the people WANT racism to continue.

it’s because people didn’t want political stuff shoved down their throats when they were trying to enjoy the game.

I hate to break it to you, but even a majority of black people weren’t happy about it either.

even today, people still boo whenever a political agenda (no matter how right or wrong) is brought up in such matters.

Keep politics out of sports. In such a politically charged climate that we’re living in, everyone needs a safe space to get away from it.

Edit: also to add, Colin Kaepernick got punished especially hard, because his actions could be construed as disrespectful to the fallen patriots that died to give him the freedom to do what he did. Try doing that in certain other countries—even first world countries—and you’d be dragged off the field and sent to the gulags.

y’all are so privileged, but it’s such a banality to you that you can’t even appreciate how privileged you are.

 

[AfterHours69]

Nothing you said there was untrue, and yet nothing you said there really contributes to the situation at hand.

Your whole post basically amounts to “everyone exhibits at least small racist behaviors here and there, but isn’t necessarily a racist.”

ok. Great. Sooooo, what would you like us to do with that situation? Where is the potential solution (assuming there is one) being presented?

even I’ll admit that every human being (yes, including those who are marginalized… sorry woke people) are capable of minor racist behaviors. Prejudice/bias/discrimination/stereotyping is engrained in humanity. White people didn’t invent this—this has been a facet of being a human for as long as we’ve been in existence.

and I dare say, since we’re on the topic…. Playing the “racism card” when there is no racism at play is just as much a problem today as these minor acts of racism y’all like to get offended about.

It’s such a slap in the face to those who are victims of actual racism that happens.

One of my favorite songs from Avenue Q is, “Everyone’s a Little Bit Racist.” (Some people are a lotta bit racist). I agree with a lot of what you said. I would say though that “minor acts of racism” are ok to be offended by. Micro-aggressions do real damage. Just like, react proportionally, and the word “minor” is subjective. But I also agree this conversation is a digression lol

 

[wsnki07]

@Jhughes1995 I acknowledge where you're coming from and I agree with everything you said. I read Viola Davis' memoir "Finding Me" and since watched many of her interviews, and she does a phenomenal job talking about the lack of and the importance of representation.

I think the issue with most mainstream shows are that they like to flirt with the idea of taking creative risks but only if it's to a predictable playbook and we know what that playbook is.

"Moonlight" was so inspirational to me because it was proof that we can create the content we wish to see. There are so many talented content creators out there that has the type of the representation we want. They deserve our views, feedback, money, etc. The more of us that are willing to do that and promote them on a local level, the better the chances of them either being able to produce better quality work for us to enjoy in SILOS or potentially reach the eyes of mainstream who would jump at the chance to leech off their work so they can make money off it.

There's talk about "Noah's Arc" making a comback nearly 17 years later since it's release

 

[deleted464787]

One of my favorite songs from Avenue Q is, “Everyone’s a Little Bit Racist.” (Some people are a lotta bit racist). I agree with a lot of what you said. I would say though that “minor acts of racism” are ok to be offended by. Micro-aggressions do real damage. Just like, react proportionally, and the word “minor” is subjective. But I also agree this conversation is a digression lol

I mean, I also agree with you, to an extent.

it’s just a matter of pick your battles, you know?

if it’s something that REALLY doesn’t directly affect people, what’s the point in making a big stink of it?

we have bigger fish to fry, with regards to racism…. And with regards to other aspects of the world in general.

as I pointed out in one of my other threads here: I’ve had black women tell me I “look pretty hot, for a white boy.” I just say thank you and move on. Some people get bent out of shape and let comments like that ruin their day.

I’d be blessed if that’s the worst thing I had to deal with on a daily basis.

there are kids half my age on the other side of the world from me, and they don’t know if they’re going to be able to get their next meal tomorrow.

there are people in Ukraine getting ready for bed right now who might not wake up in the morning because their house could get shelled while they sleep.

 

[AfterHours69]

This is not because people didn’t agree with their cause. It’s not like the people WANT racism to continue.

it’s because people didn’t want political stuff shoved down their throats when they were trying to enjoy the game.

I hate to break it to you, but even a majority of black people weren’t happy about it either.

even today, people still boo whenever a political agenda (no matter how right or wrong) is brought up in such matters.

Keep politics out of sports. In such a politically charged climate that we’re living in, everyone needs a safe space to get away from it.

Edit: also to add, Colin Kaepernick got punished especially hard, because his actions could be construed as disrespectful to the fallen patriots that died to give him the freedom to do what he did. Try doing that in certain other countries—even first world countries—and you’d be dragged off the field and sent to the gulags.

y’all are so privileged, but it’s such a banality to you that you can’t even appreciate how privileged you are.

This, I disagree with. Some people are perfectly comfortable with the racism continuing, and some just have no idea because it doesn’t affect them directly.

Is it really “shoving it down people’s throats” if someone takes a knee? Is it shoving religion down people’s throats if they bow their heads in silent prayer?

At one point, allowing black people to integrate in white sports was political. For another example of politics and sports, see the 1936 Olympics.

 

[AfterHours69]

I feel like we’re kinda getting off track from the original post, but I do enjoy that we’re having a decent conversation.

 

[deleted464787]

This, I disagree with. Some people are perfectly comfortable with the racism continuing, and some just have no idea because it doesn’t affect them directly.

Is it really “shoving it down people’s throats” if someone takes a knee? Is it shoving religion down people’s throats if they bow their heads in silent prayer?

At one point, allowing black people to integrate in white sports was political. For another example of politics and sports, see the 1936 Olympics.

You’re right, there ARE some people who want it to continue. I’ll amend my statement:

a VAST majority of people don’t want it to continue. Unfortunately, we all know that if a couple idiots pee in the pool, it can ruin it for everyone at the party.

in regards to shoving down their throats, I’m going to say yes. In regards to prayer, I’d also say yes, as a non-religious person.

there are other, better forums to make your statements in. Sports is not a good choice, im afraid. You’ll be turning more people off your cause, than gaining support… at least in my opinion.

edit: If you don’t believe taking a knee is “shoving down your throat”, I can accept that. You’re certainly entitled to your opinion. But I’m curious about how you feel about…say…. The protestors that used to stand in the road to block traffic for BLM? Where do you draw the line?

 

[deleted464787]

I feel like we’re kinda getting off track from the original post, but I do enjoy that we’re having a decent conversation.

On track or off track, civil discourse is important to have.

we live in a climate where it’s a pretty common tactic to try to dehumanize the opposition, just because they believe differently about a single point of doctrine with you.

I think THATS one of the most deplorable things that has come out of todays society, at least in America.

 

[AfterHours69]

I will say, on the original topic, that I’ve seen more casting calls specifically stating they will only cast people who match the character. More casting calls like that point to more projects in the works, so I think it’s a slow moving change, but the industry is changing. It’s going to be even slower while there’s a strike, but still.

 

[deleted464787]

I will say, on the original topic, that I’ve seen more casting calls specifically stating they will only cast people who match the character. More casting calls like that point to more projects in the works, so I think it’s a slow moving change, but the industry is changing. It’s going to be even slower while there’s a strike, but still.

Do you think this should be done in voice acting as well?

for example, one of my favorite shows of all time was Bojack Horseman. They had Alison Brie, a white actress, voice the part of a main character who was Vietnamese.

she certainly did a phenomenal job, and I can’t really imagine the part being captured any better. Yet, after the show was completed, even she said she felt bad that she voiced a Vietnamese character , and that an actual Vietnamese person should have been given the role.

(For the record, the Vietnamese character in the show grew up in Boston, so accent wasn’t an issue, and her Vietnamese heritage was only lightly touched on, so it wasn’t an integral part that played a major role in the whole context of the show)

 

[AfterHours69]

Do you think this should be done in voice acting as well?

for example, one of my favorite shows of all time was Bojack Horseman. They had Alison Brie, a white actress, voice the part of a main character who was Vietnamese.

she certainly did a phenomenal job, and I can’t really imagine the part being captured any better. Yet, after the show was completed, even she said she felt bad that she voiced a Vietnamese character , and that an actual Vietnamese person should have been given the role.

(For the record, the Vietnamese character in the show grew up in Boston, so accent wasn’t an issue, and her Vietnamese heritage was only lightly touched on, so it wasn’t an integral part that played a major role in the whole context of the show)

Haha—yeah…this is a touchy subject. There are positives and negatives, and I’ve had a few conversations with actors about this. For me personally, it opens some doors, so I just go with it. At the same time…there are certain expectations that shows have when they ask for a certain demographic, and even though the actor meets that demographic, they don’t meet the biases the casting people/show have. And sometimes casting the actor of the demographic becomes a permission slip to engage in stereotypes, push biases or still problematic portrayals.

I think “culturally appropriate casting” is the start of a larger conversation that needs to include writers, producers, directors, etc., or at least consultants of that demographic, and even then, it’s still not going to be perfect. People will still be upset.

 

[pursine]

I just gonna start off by saying that this is not a victimisation case or a targeted post, this is just an open discussion I'm wanting to have with other members of our communtity, and you guys' opinions on the lack of diversity and stories within the film industry for lgbt representation. Because I've watched a lot of tv shows and movies, and I cannot help but notice that if there is a gay character or a gay relationship in the show, the characters most the time turn out to be these two specific categories; the white skinny twink or the white muscle jock that seems straight at the beginning. I'm not in any way, shape or form hating on these character archetypes, but I do not agree with the lack of diversity and representation for other members of the lgbtq+ community. For example, there are latin and hispanic men with skinnier or bigger body types that are gay or bi, same goes for black people, and asian people. But they are hardly ever represented in these shows or movies, and I feel it really does have an affect on how people view the lgbtq+, where they're part of it or not. The first image that will come to someone's head when the word "gay" is said, will more than likely be one or both of the categorized characters I mentioned above because it's all that we see. I, as a coloured person and a bigger body type, have had experiences before where I was discriminated against and made to feel I don't belong within the communtity because I don't "fit" the social image of what a gay or bi man should be, and I only mention this to further prove my point. Now, I know there are many shows and movies with more lgbt diversity, such as Holt and Kevin from Brooklyn 99, or Tony from 13RW, and Phastos from Eternals, but it is a rare thing to see. I just want to hear opinions from others within the community and how you see the way we're represented, whether you

The person who raised the original point of this thread is mostly correct. although Some posters on this thread have questioned the robustness of their claims. So, I decided to do a brief review of the literature to illustrate that those views do have academic support.

Yes representation matters, for example, Dhoest, A., & Simons, N. (2011) stress the importance of positive representations for lesbians and gay men. Particularly at the time of coming out, sexual identity becomes salient in media uses and interpretations.

And stereotyping prevails in the representation of LGBTQ characters in the mainstream. A longitudinal study conducted by Nölke (2018) found that while the number of explicit representations of LGBT characters has risen dramatically in recent years, these representations were mostly stereotypical along the lines mentioned in the original post. Intersections of sexuality, class, age, and race generally remain invisible, which highlights they claim that the erasure of multiply marginalized groups continues to perpetuate a heteronormative, domesticized version of “gayness.”

This result was supported by a study by McInroy, L. B., & Craig (2018) who found that while lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and queer (young people have been increasingly represented in traditional (offline) media over the past two decades, that traditional media (particularly television) to represent LGBTQ people as one-dimensional and stereotypical, ignoring many LGBTQ sub-groups.

References

Dhoest, A., & Simons, N. (2011). Questioning queer audiences: Exploring diversity in lesbian and gay men's media uses and readings. The handbook of gender, sex, and media, 260-276.

McInroy, L. B., & Craig, S. L. (2017). Perspectives of LGBTQ emerging adults on the depiction and impact of LGBTQ media representation. Journal of youth studies, 20(1), 32-46.

Nölke, A. I. (2018). Making diversity conform? An intersectional, longitudinal analysis of LGBT-specific mainstream media advertisements. Journal of homosexuality, 65(2), 224-255.

 

[wsnki07]

The person who raised the original point of this thread is mostly correct. although Some posters on this thread have questioned the robustness of their claims. So, I decided to do a brief review of the literature to illustrate that those views do have academic support.

Yes representation matters, for example, Dhoest, A., & Simons, N. (2011) stress the importance of positive representations for lesbians and gay men. Particularly at the time of coming out, sexual identity becomes salient in media uses and interpretations.

And stereotyping prevails in the representation of LGBTQ characters in the mainstream. A longitudinal study conducted by Nölke (2018) found that while the number of explicit representations of LGBT characters has risen dramatically in recent years, these representations were mostly stereotypical along the lines mentioned in the original post. Intersections of sexuality, class, age, and race generally remain invisible, which highlights they claim that the erasure of multiply marginalized groups continues to perpetuate a heteronormative, domesticized version of “gayness.”

This result was supported by a study by McInroy, L. B., & Craig (2018) who found that while lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and queer (young people have been increasingly represented in traditional (offline) media over the past two decades, that traditional media (particularly television) to represent LGBTQ people as one-dimensional and stereotypical, ignoring many LGBTQ sub-groups.

References

Dhoest, A., & Simons, N. (2011). Questioning queer audiences: Exploring diversity in lesbian and gay men's media uses and readings. The handbook of gender, sex, and media, 260-276.

McInroy, L. B., & Craig, S. L. (2017). Perspectives of LGBTQ emerging adults on the depiction and impact of LGBTQ media representation. Journal of youth studies, 20(1), 32-46.

Nölke, A. I. (2018). Making diversity conform? An intersectional, longitudinal analysis of LGBT-specific mainstream media advertisements. Journal of homosexuality, 65(2), 224-255.

Thank you for posting this.

This makes me appreciate Viola's role of Annalise Keating from "How To Get Away With Murder" even more. She was such a fully fleshed out character with LAYERS UPON LAYERS. She's living proof that Queer characters can written in a way that shows their good,bad and ugly within a way that's both relatable yet original.

I don't wanna give out spoilers for those who haven't seen it, but it's still on netflix.

 

[Nigel Atkinson]

Yes, tell me. I am interested in your explanation.

If you say that this is white supremacy if whites are overrepresented, you also have to say that it is black supremacy if blacks are overrepresented. That is just logic. Because white people would also love to see themselves in sports if they want to see themselves in movies.

Furthermore you also have to claim that sport and entertainment is American supremacy if Americans are overrepresented etc. They are only a small portion of the world population, but have the power in nearly every entertainment industry.

As I said, if you promote identity politics you also have to promote it as soon as it disbenefits you.

Americans are not doing it because they have to call themselves systemic nationalists and that would harm their power. No one of the people in hollywood that complain would have power. The power would go to other countries.

You would have to hire people from other countries and they would get nothing.

I would support that, but they will not do it.


You are delusional.

Do you even know how much they earn? Slavery is if you work somewhere else, you earn far less in nearly every other profession.

There is racism, yes. Racism is if you want to see your own race in anything. Because you dinstinguish between races and see your race as more important. IF you are not racist you simply do not care.

You always have different races, sexes, sexual orientations at different jobs because they study different professions and also for different other reasons. You will nearly never have a profession that matches the exact average of the population for these reasons. And soccer is by the way the number one sport of the world including Black people (those in Africa).

IF you are not racist: You can watch the Ghanian league or the Japanese league or the English league and you just enjoy the sport. If you are a racist, you care about the identities of the people that are playing.

Sports and movies are also not different things. If people watched movies because they want to see themselves in movies that would also be true in sports. Otherwise the claim does not make sense.

If they are interested for minority bodies they would want to see them in movies and everything else, too. And people on here claim that this is not the case. So this claim does also make no sense.

This is a horrible take and it doesn't work like that. You need to learn proper american history before you make such tone deaf statements. America in particular has a history of under representation and just using a white person in tv or film. There's a context to this that you are sadly unaware of and making statements like " If you say that this is white supremacy if whites are overrepresented, you also have to say that it is black supremacy if blacks are overrepresented. That is just logic. " Is literal gaslighting. This why is kind of what the Op is referring to when referring to representation.

 

[deleted464787]

This is a horrible take and it doesn't work like that. You need to learn proper american history before you make such tone deaf statements. America in particular has a history of under representation and just using a white person in tv or film. There's a context to this that you are sadly unaware of and making statements like " If you say that this is white supremacy if whites are overrepresented, you also have to say that it is black supremacy if blacks are overrepresented. That is just logic. " Is literal gaslighting. This why is kind of what the Op is referring to when referring to representation.

Sooooooo…..

can anyone actually answer his question?

why is it considered a problem when whites are over represented, but NOT when any other race is over represented?

 

[Nigel Atkinson]

Sooooooo…..

can anyone actually answer his question?

why is it considered a problem when whites are over represented, but NOT when any other race is over represented?

Because there is a historical context. I thought I was pretty clear about that. White people have actively kept Poc out of the entertainment industry and have not provided any opportunities.

 

[deleted464787]

Because there is a historical context. I thought I was pretty clear about that. White people have actively kept Poc out of the entertainment industry and have not provided any opportunities.

Riiiiiiiiight.

so the solution is to continue to call it out when white people are over represented, but not say anything when other races are over represented?

I feel like something is missing here

is the idea just to have the different races exchanging blows and “getting each other back” by under representing each other til the end of time now?

or I guess we’ll only allow it against white people?

 

[AfterHours69]

Riiiiiiiiight.

so the solution is to continue to call it out when white people are over represented, but not say anything when other races are over represented?

I feel like something is missing here

is the idea just to have the different races exchanging blows and “getting each other back” by under representing each other til the end of time now?

or I guess we’ll only allow it against white people?

Are you saying white people are being shutout of sports?