Last rites for John Paul II

[13788]

NelsonMuntz84:

Originally posted by surferboy+Apr 4 2005, 01:00 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(surferboy &#064; Apr 4 2005, 01:00 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by madame_zora@Apr 4 2005, 03:42 AM
Well, I do respect some of the things he did do, but I was and am shocked at the lack of action taken wrt the molestation cases, I think it was an incredible black eye on the church. Hopefully the next Pope will stand for accountability.

[post=296762]Quoted post[/post]​

Yah, unless it&#39;s this Nazi guy I&#39;m hearing about.

Originally posted by NelsonMuntz84@Apr 4 2005, 06:18 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-madame_zora

@Apr 4 2005, 09:42 AM
Well, I do respect some of the things he did do, but I was and am shocked at the lack of action taken wrt the molestation cases, I think it was an incredible black eye on the church. Hopefully the next Pope will stand for accountability.

[post=296762]Quoted post[/post]​

He, whoever it may be, will need too, it also would be a flying start for any new pope and would earn them brownie points right away.

I&#39;d also add that the disgrace where the American Cardinals, not the Pope, although he should have done more.

[post=296779]Quoted post[/post]​

Oh, I totally blame the American Cardinals. However, the Pope is their leader. By not doing what he should have, he&#39;s literally saying "oh, go ahead, fondle little boys&#33;" because the American Cardinals obviously knew he wasn&#39;t doing anything about it.

[post=296791]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]


As I said before I think it was shame that these cardinals were not dealing with the Pope at his peak, but rather a dying old man who was going through the motions till his death.

Also the man you mentioned is not a Nazi, he was sent to the Nazi front lines and had been a member of the hitler youth as all in Germany where. His father was anti Nazi and spoke out about the treatment of the jews, he had to flee Germany in fear of death, and the Cardinal deserted from the Nazi army as soon as he could, and spent the rest of the war in a American prisoner of war camp.

So he was forced to join the Nazi&#39;s as a 17 y/o boy, but was never a Nazi, he was part of the Pope&#39;s group who reached out to the Jewish community and apoligised for any treatment in the past.

Also he was the Cardinal who criticised the American Cardinals last week, saying they brought filth into Gods house, so I think he is actually the more likley to clean house.

 

[naughty]

Nixxi,

Pope John Paul II has now gone on to meet his maker.For whatever he did or didnt do he will have to answer to God. He above all was a human and you can not take away his legacy of tremendous good. Yes it is grievous that we had individuals in our midst for years that perpetrated such crimes under the protection of the Church to the detriment of many young lives. Hopefully, there will continue to be changes made. But it is just as grievous to allow that taint to over shadow the many many men and women of the cloth who have sacrificed their lives to spread God&#39;s word and Love.

Naughty

 

[surferboy]

Originally posted by naughty@Apr 4 2005, 07:15 AM
Nixxi,

Pope John Paul II has now gone on to meet his maker.For whatever he did or didnt do he will have to answer to God. He above all was a human and you can not take away his legacy of tremendous good. Yes it is grievous that we had individuals in our midst for years that perpetrated such crimes under the protection of the Church to the detriment of many young lives. Hopefully, there will continue to be changes made. But it is just as grievous to allow that taint to over shadow the many many men and women of the cloth who have sacrificed their lives to spread God&#39;s word and Love.

Naughty

[post=296795]Quoted post[/post]​

You can&#39;t claim him to be both infallable and human. And I&#39;m not gonna not state my opinion on a dead person when it&#39;s not a positive opinion. I did the same to Raegan, I&#39;m gonna do the same to the Pope. I don&#39;t believe in saying nice things about someone simply because they&#39;re dead.

 

[13788]

NelsonMuntz84:

Originally posted by surferboy+Apr 4 2005, 01:18 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(surferboy &#064; Apr 4 2005, 01:18 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-naughty@Apr 4 2005, 07:15 AM
Nixxi,

Pope John Paul II has now gone on to meet his maker.For whatever he did or didnt do he will have to answer to God. He above all was a human and you can not take away his legacy of tremendous good. Yes it is grievous that we had individuals in our midst for years that perpetrated such crimes under the protection of the Church to the detriment of many young lives.  Hopefully, there will continue to be changes made. But it is just as grievous to allow that taint to over shadow the many many men and women of the cloth who have sacrificed their lives to spread God&#39;s word and Love.

Naughty

[post=296795]Quoted post[/post]​

You can&#39;t claim him to be both infallable and human. And I&#39;m not gonna not state my opinion on a dead person when it&#39;s not a positive opinion. I did the same to Raegan, I&#39;m gonna do the same to the Pope. I don&#39;t believe in saying nice things about someone simply because they&#39;re dead.

[post=296798]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]

He did alot of good, the American Cardinals should have been able to do what was needed in America and he is the most worthwhile pope for a long time. The good he did well out weigh&#39;s the bad.

I also dont think we should pick the bones out of someone, ignore all the good they did and just bring up one specific issue which happened when he was 83 y/o and dying, just because they are dead.

 

[prepstudinsc]

The problem is with the organizational makeup of the church. In Protestant churches, there are many more checks and balances. If something fishy is going on in a local church, the church board (whatever is is called--Session, Administrative Board, Church Council, Consitory) can and will deal with the matter at hand. If they don&#39;t deal with it, people can go to the next level of church government (Presbytery, District, Association) and have the problem taken care of on a personal level. The Roman Catholic Church always seems to take a much more hands off approach. Even though parishes have parish councils, the Priest is the one who runs things in a dictatorial manner. People hold him in higher esteem than most Protestant congregations hold their pastors--now mind you, that is not always the case--but I have Catholic relatives and I have seen this in action. The local priest is like God incarnate to them and their parish. He would NEVER do anything wrong and is seen as a step above a regular human.

So when these allegations come forward, there is first the element of denial (Fr. So and So would never do this), then the fact that the parish council basically has no power to excercise any control over the priest. The people don&#39;t have direct access to the Bishop, unlike in Protestant churches, where we have annual or semi-annual church conferences with our district leaders or area-wide meetings with our leaders. They make themselves available to the local congregations, because they are the servants of the congregations, representing them to the higher church body.

The Protestant churches in the United States, too, don&#39;t have headquarters on other continents. They are governed by offices located in the US, not overseas, so tight reigns can be kept. When accusations are made of child abuse or molestation, actions are quickly taken and the offender is dealt with.

There was a situation here just a few months ago in which a Youth Pastor was found to have some teenage porn (under age 18, so it was technically child porn).
He was fired from his job, sentenced to some jail time, and it all hapened within a matter of a few weeks. THAT is how it should happen.

No church wants it&#39;s name dragged through the mud, and I can totally understand that, but given the organizational makeup of the Catholic Church, it just lends itself to added red-tape and the Bishops were just trying to keep things quiet. Unfortunately, because the Pope was in Rome he was kind of the last person to hear about it. If the headquarters were here in the US, I think it would have been handled quite differently.

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

Originally posted by surferboy@Apr 4 2005, 12:18 PM
You can&#39;t claim him to be both infallable and human.

Don&#39;t condemn papal infallibility unless you really know what it is. It is probably the most misunderstood doctrine of the Church. The doctrine of Papal Infallibility does not mean the Pope is always right in all his personal teachings. Catholics are quite aware that, despite his great learning, the Pope is very much a human being and therefore liable to commit human error.

Although the Pope enjoys Christ’s gift of infallibility under certain circumstances, it is important to point out that as a personal man he does sin. Remember, at one point, Peter, the first Pope, told Jesus, "Depart from me, Lord, for I am a sinful man" (Lk 5:8). Peter even denied Christ three times (Mk 14:71-72)—a most terrible sin. And Paul once even confronted Peter for acting cowardly and "hypocritically" (Gal 2:11-14). In all cases, however, Peter’s errors were a matter of personal practice, and never doctrine.

In order for the Pope to be infallible on a particular statement, however, four conditions must apply:

1. he must be speaking ex cathedra, "from the Chair" of Peter, or in other words, officially, as head of the entire Church.

2. the decision must be for the whole Church.

3. it must be on a matter of faith or morals.

4. the Pope must have the intention of making a final decision on a teaching of faith or morals, so that it is to be held by all the faithful. It must be interpretive, not originative; the Pope has no authority to originate new doctrine. He is not the author of revelation - only its guardian and expounder.

John Paul II has never invoked papal infallibility. In fact, he couldn&#39;t under canon law unless he had support of the Council of Bishops. The doctrine of infallibility is more a matter of contention in theory than in practice, because popes of Church history have only twice spoken ex cathedra. The first time was by Pope Pius IX when he declared the doctrine of Immaculate Conception, and the second time was by Pope Pius XII to declare the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin.

So in the case of the scandal, papal infallibility played no part.

 

[Freddie53]

Originally posted by DoubleMeatWhopper@Apr 3 2005, 02:31 PM
I attended Mass today at St, Mary&#39;s, the only Catholic Church here in town, and the attendance was a testament to the respect that people felt for His Holiness. The little Church was packed, standing room only. Not only were the Catholics that usually only attend Mass on Christmas and Easter in attendance, but even many Protestants came to show their admiration. These were mostly Episcopalians, Lutherans and Methodists. (Jena is such a small town that everyone knows everyone else&#39;s religion ... and everyone else&#39;s business&#33 The priest said that the attendance today was the largest in the history of St. Mary&#39;s Catholic Church.

[post=296482]Quoted post[/post]​

Jacinto, you can rest assured that I would have been right there with you if I had lived in Jena. Pope John Paul II was the greateast Pope in the past several centuries. Perhaps Pope John XIII who headed the Vatican II Council would have been better if he had served longer. We will never know that.

About the hanky panky. The Pope handled it properly. He is the spiritural head of the Roman Cahtolic Church. No way should any one man be in charge of the day-to-day administration of the affairs of a world wide one billion members organization spread over several nations. He condemned it greatlly and ordered the cardninals and Archbishops to "take care of it and do it now and correctly." That was the proper action of a Pope. And for the most part it has been.

But all people deserved a chance to defend themselves It would not be right for a person to just say, Hey he molested me and it be taken as truth without investigation." And I felt for those boys when the priests were just moved down the road to another churcch some decades ago. And guess what, the parents during the sixties were just as negligent and responsible as the Catholic Church. It was their sons and they did NOTHING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING and then to blame a Pope who was not even Pope at the time for it all is not really fair.

When the courts were handing out money from the dioceses of the Roman Cathoic Chruch I wanted to say what about the parents? They knew and DID NOTHING.

And there is a huge difference between a 12 year old and a 17 year old. And some of these boys sought after the priests when the priests were moved.

The main responsibility of the Catholic Church in the last few years was to see that molestation is not happening now. The second responsibility is to see that proper action taken on molestations of decades ago.

I understand that the Pope laid out the rules and regulations that do as much as possible for written documents to do.

I have said it before and I will say it again. Pope John Paul II was the first Pope to recognize Proestants as equal brothers in Christ and preached in a Lutheran Church. You bet I adored him and had the highest regard for him.

I looked at him as the most important spiritual leader in Christianity just for the sheer numbers of Catholics and because HE EARNED IT. It remains to be seen if a new pope will earn that or not.

Pope John Paul II earned the title. No I don&#39;t think he will need to go to purgatory first. I am sure he went straight into the preseence of Jesus. Knowing Pope John Paul II. HE is still has his face on the ground kissing the feet of Jesus Christ Himself. And he may stay in that position a long time. His choice. That is the kind of man he was. There was no finer Christian in this world. No, I didn&#39;t agree with every one of his positions, but he nevertheless, was a great Christian.

I am very grieved at his passing. I feel as if I have lost a very special person.

Jacinto, my prayers are with you as well. I know how grieved all of your family is. I know that it meant a lot when the Pope was able to crack the wall of communism enough to get into Cuba. I know that was just a moment of pride for you.

May Pope John Paul II, the Holy Father, spiritual head of much of Christiandom going way beyond the Roman Catholic Church, rest in peace. He is wearing whiter than white robes now and has taken on the splendor of Christ himself, just like ever other person entering into those pearly gates.

His Memorial Mass will be a service of grief, but much more than that. It will be a service of Resurrection of the Dead and a Celebration of the Holy Great Thanksgivng which is the Protestant term for the main part of the Mass. I have been previldged to play a Memoral Mass in the Catholic Chruch. The low mass liturgy is so close to the United Methodist Church liturgy. Both servicesare pimarily words taken from the Bible itself.

Thank God for John Paul II.

For those of you who are non believers, let those of us in mournnig have some time to mourn please. We really appreciate your doing that. Later, we can discuss the pros and cons of each of the Pope&#39;s decisions, but right now let those who are grieving grieve.

 

[Freddie53]

My and with such clarity to speak&#33; Thanks for that informative statement on the infallibility of the Pope. I basically knew that, but I couldn&#39;t have stated it that well. I didn&#39;t know that it has been invoked only twice in history though. I just knew that the Pope spoke for the church and his statements weren&#39;t up to a "council" to accept or reject.

I wish I could have had you clean up my previoius post and put that wonderful clarity you have.

Again, Jacinto, I am with you in your grief and yet celebration that the Holy See is now rested from his labors and gone home to his reward.

Your Christian Brother,

Love,

Freddie

Originally posted by DoubleMeatWhopper+Apr 4 2005, 03:45 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DoubleMeatWhopper &#064; Apr 4 2005, 03:45 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-surferboy@Apr 4 2005, 12:18 PM
You can&#39;t claim him to be both infallable and human.

Don&#39;t condemn papal infallibility unless you really know what it is. It is probably the most misunderstood doctrine of the Church. The doctrine of Papal Infallibility does not mean the Pope is always right in all his personal teachings. Catholics are quite aware that, despite his great learning, the Pope is very much a human being and therefore liable to commit human error.

Although the Pope enjoys Christ’s gift of infallibility under certain circumstances, it is important to point out that as a personal man he does sin. Remember, at one point, Peter, the first Pope, told Jesus, "Depart from me, Lord, for I am a sinful man" (Lk 5:8). Peter even denied Christ three times (Mk 14:71-72)—a most terrible sin. And Paul once even confronted Peter for acting cowardly and "hypocritically" (Gal 2:11-14). In all cases, however, Peter’s errors were a matter of personal practice, and never doctrine.

In order for the Pope to be infallible on a particular statement, however, four conditions must apply:

1. he must be speaking ex cathedra, "from the Chair" of Peter, or in other words, officially, as head of the entire Church.

2. the decision must be for the whole Church.

3. it must be on a matter of faith or morals.

4. the Pope must have the intention of making a final decision on a teaching of faith or morals, so that it is to be held by all the faithful. It must be interpretive, not originative; the Pope has no authority to originate new doctrine. He is not the author of revelation - only its guardian and expounder.

John Paul II has never invoked papal infallibility. In fact, he couldn&#39;t under canon law unless he had support of the Council of Bishops. The doctrine of infallibility is more a matter of contention in theory than in practice, because popes of Church history have only twice spoken ex cathedra. The first time was by Pope Pius IX when he declared the doctrine of Immaculate Conception, and the second time was by Pope Pius XII to declare the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin.

So in the case of the scandal, papal infallibility played no part.

[post=296887]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]

 

[jonb]

Originally posted by prepstudinsc@Apr 4 2005, 05:25 AM
The Protestant churches in the United States, too, don&#39;t have headquarters on other continents. They are governed by offices located in the US, not overseas, so tight reigns can be kept. When accusations are made of child abuse or molestation, actions are quickly taken and the offender is dealt with.

[post=296815]Quoted post[/post]​

Yeah, when the victims are white.

 

[13788]

NelsonMuntz84:

Originally posted by DoubleMeatWhopper@Apr 4 2005, 09:45 PM


The first time was by Pope Pius IX when he declared the doctrine of Immaculate Conception.

[post=296887]Quoted post[/post]​

There is a concept which alot of people struggle to get, even Catholics, they still think Jesus is the Immaculate Conception, and when you correct them they have no idea what you mean.

" The Mother of God appeared to the child Bernadette in Lourdes identifying
herself in the words: "I am the Immaculate Conception." "

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

Originally posted by NelsonMuntz84@Apr 4 2005, 10:13 PM
There is a concept which alot of people struggle to get, even Catholics, they still think Jesus is the Immaculate Conception, and when you correct them they have no idea what you mean.

That&#39;s true. They confuse Immaculate Conception with Virgin Birth. They are not the same thing at all.

 

[surferboy]

Ok, so I was wrong about Papal Infallability. However, I believe the Pope has too much power outside the Church. I dunno if you guys can tell, but I&#39;m not a fan of the Christian religion I don&#39;t mind Christians (as long as they&#39;re reasonable), but the whole Christian and Catholic church thing....No. I don&#39;t believe people should put their faith so heavily into a pile of stone (or the concept said pile has) or in any one person. I&#39;m a Buddhist, and I totally respect the Dalai Lama, and I&#39;ve met him and received his blessings. However, I believe my faith is my faith, and no one should hold power over myself. But those are my opinions, hope ya guys don&#39;t like, hold me lower or anything. I do love and respect you all, no matter what religion yer of (except Scientology...)


*tries to start a group hug*

 

[13788]

hung_big: Nixxy, you just an appreciation topic - OBVIOUSLY not many hold you in low esteem. Isn&#39;t it clear that like, everyone loves ya. I do for one, babes.

*continues hug...but pushes everyone else away so he can have nixxy for himself* *kiss* :wub:

Chris
XOXOXOXOXOXOXO

 

[13788]

NelsonMuntz84:

Originally posted by surferboy@Apr 5 2005, 01:49 AM
except Scientology...

[post=296972]Quoted post[/post]​

No chance of me being into Scientology, their not interested in folk with my bank balance :evilgrin:

 

[surferboy]

Originally posted by NelsonMuntz84+Apr 4 2005, 08:17 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NelsonMuntz84 &#064; Apr 4 2005, 08:17 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-surferboy@Apr 5 2005, 01:49 AM
except Scientology...

[post=296972]Quoted post[/post]​

No chance of me being into Scientology, their not interested in folk with my bank balance :evilgrin:

[post=296994]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]


:lol:

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

Originally posted by surferboy@Apr 5 2005, 12:49 AM
I&#39;m a Buddhist, and I totally respect the Dalai Lama, and I&#39;ve met him and received his blessings.

The Pope also met with the Dalai Lama and they engaged in a deep, philosophical conversation. They both claimed a mutual respect and kinship following their meeting. And no man, including the Pope, holds power over me. He is to all Catholics what one of his official titles claims: Servus servorum Dei (&#39;Servant of the servants of God&#39. I, too, respect all religions. I can&#39;t object to someone&#39;s search for the Truth, no matter what path he follows to get there.

 

[madame_zora]

Originally posted by surferboy@Apr 5 2005, 12:49 AM

I do love and respect you all, no matter what religion yer of (except Scientology...)


*tries to start a group hug*

[post=296972]Quoted post[/post]​

Or Jedi- get over yourselves&#33;

Nixxy, I&#39;d love to hear how you came to meet the Dalai Lama if you&#39;d care to share. My admiration for him is great and I&#39;d love to have that opportunity one day.

*Joins group hug- Chris you better not give me any shit&#33;*

 

[13788]

hung_big: Hmm...alright Jana...you are special...

Wait, what am I fretting? Nixxy is Gay&#33; *pulls Jana into the group hug&#33;*

 

[surferboy]

Originally posted by madame_zora+Apr 4 2005, 09:27 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(madame_zora &#064; Apr 4 2005, 09:27 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-surferboy@Apr 5 2005, 12:49 AM

I do love and respect you all, no matter what religion yer of (except Scientology...)


*tries to start a group hug*

[post=296972]Quoted post[/post]​

Or Jedi- get over yourselves&#33;

Nixxy, I&#39;d love to hear how you came to meet the Dalai Lama if you&#39;d care to share. My admiration for him is great and I&#39;d love to have that opportunity one day.

*Joins group hug- Chris you better not give me any shit&#33;*

[post=297048]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]


My art teacher from high school, Ms. Downey, was huge advocate for freeing Tibet. The Dalai Lama caught wind of her efforts and like, visited my school. Since I helpd with the decorations, I got to meet with him. Holy gosh, it was the most hiddie experience of my life&#33; He is SO cool&#33; I&#39;ve been blessed by priests before, but when I received his blessing, the most wonderful feeling came over me. I got to bare witness to the making of a Mandala, and the breaking ceremony. I received a blessed sash. And like, the Dalai Lama sat and talked with me and a friend of mine for almost 3 hours straight. He&#39;s like, the most off the rickt man in the world.


EDIT: Forgot to say, besides the fact that like, I&#39;ll tell anyone almost anything about myself if they ask, this is like, a story I totally love to share. Meeting the Dalai Lama is totally on my top ten list of best experiences. I was a Buddhist before meeting him, but when I got his blessing, I knew fershure.

 

[Freddie53]

*Joins group hug- Chris you better not give me any shit&#33;*

[post=297048]Quoted post[/post]​

[/quote]


Nixxie,

I am glad you got to meet the (damn I can&#39;t spell his name) the high Buddhist from Tibet. I am quite sure he is very spiritual. Here in America you only see the bad things about Christianity. All religoins have bad things. Here is why. There will be in all religions imposters who are there for personal gain. There is no way to keep them out really. The Bible says basically to leave them alone and in time they will be revealed.

That is the approach I try to take. But Nixxie, look at the world. Basically it is in countries that are predonominately Christian where there are the most rights today. Democracy which came from a non Christian culture, the ancient Greeks is pushed today primiarily by Christian countries. And women have greater rights in countries that are basically Christian then in non Christian countries.

We tend to base our opinoins on what we ourselves see. And most of what you have seen that masqurades as Christianity today in America turns me off as well. The fundies are a joke. And the imposters are in every denomination of Christianity.

I think if you were in a predominatly Buddhist society, you would see imposters there as well. You would not approve of all that goes on there.

It is that way with all religions. I hate it. But it is so. No doubt that you are a good buddhist. Resurrectoin and Reincarnation are very similar concepts except resurrection only happens once. and reincarnation can happen several times as I understand it.

I love you Nixxie. You are a great guy. I respect your decision to be a Buddhist. I just don&#39;t want to hurt when we find out that yep, they are some fakes there too.

One thing I have learned but have to keep learning is to ignore the fakes and go on. I am happier that way. Just look for the good in all religions and you will find it. In Islam I talked with a Muslim at length and found that there are Muslims that teach love contrary to what we read in the newspapers. I was asked if I would go to heaven and this Muslim told me yes that I would.

Nixxie may you find happiness and love throughout your life. You are a swell guy.

Of course I would love to get my hands on you in that fleshpile, but that is another post. All is fun and games in the LPSG Fleshpile. All religious rules are out the window there and just about all other rules.