Last rites for John Paul II

[Freddie53]

Originally posted by DoubleMeatWhopper+Apr 4 2005, 07:48 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DoubleMeatWhopper &#064; Apr 4 2005, 07:48 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-NelsonMuntz84@Apr 4 2005, 10:13 PM
There is a concept which alot of people struggle to get, even Catholics, they still think Jesus is the Immaculate Conception, and when you correct them they have no idea what you mean.

That&#39;s true. They confuse Immaculate Conception with Virgin Birth. They are not the same thing at all.

[post=296971]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]
Please explain. I thought that Jesus was born of a virgin and that no sperm from a man impregnated Mary. I thought the Immaculate Conception was the act of the Holy Spirit coming over Mary and her conceiving a child as a result. A child totally human and totally God. Am I close to understanding these two concepts?

 

[jonb]

Originally posted by NelsonMuntz84@Apr 4 2005, 05:17 PM
No chance of me being into Scientology, their not interested in folk with my bank balance  :evilgrin:

[post=296994]Quoted post[/post]​

Be careful about mentioning Scientology. You know what they do to people who talk about them. :tinfoilhat:

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

Originally posted by Freddie53@Apr 5 2005, 04:11 AM
I thought the Immaculate Conception was the act of the Holy Spirit coming over Mary and her conceiving a child as a result. A child totally human and totally God. Am I close to understanding these two concepts?

The Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with the conception of Jesus. The Immaculate Conception is the dogma that Mary was conceived free of original sin. Mary was chosen before her birth to be the mother of the Incarnate Word and as such, she was born a pure vessel without the taint of original sin that the rest of humanity shares. She is fully human, but was accorded a special grace in light of her very special role as the Theotokos (God-bearer).

 

[Freddie53]

Originally posted by DoubleMeatWhopper+Apr 4 2005, 11:54 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DoubleMeatWhopper &#064; Apr 4 2005, 11:54 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Freddie53@Apr 5 2005, 04:11 AM
I thought the Immaculate Conception was the act of the Holy Spirit coming over Mary and her conceiving a child as a result. A child totally human and totally God. Am I close to understanding these two concepts?

The Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with the conception of Jesus. The Immaculate Conception is the dogma that Mary was conceived free of original sin. Mary was chosen before her birth to be the mother of the Incarnate Word and as such, she was born a pure vessel without the taint of original sin that the rest of humanity shares. She is fully human, but was accorded a special grace in light of her very special role as the Theotokos (God-bearer).

[post=297143]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]
Thanks for the qualification. Most Protestants don&#39;t believe in the Immaculate Conception. Though I can see the rationale behind the doctrine. I don&#39;t know it if is rooted in Scripture or not. And i don&#39;t know what position our Orthodox and Coptic brethern have on this dogma. I just assumed the wrong dogma. And we all know what the word assume means&#33;

Personnally I would have no problems being Catholic over this dogma of the church. But then in many ways, I wouldn&#39;t have a problem being Roman Catholic to begin with. I have no problem with married clergy. I don&#39;t see anything wrong with birth control. And I think that abortion is between a woman, her doctor, her spirtual advisor and her God. I don&#39;t think government should be involved at all. And in the Methodist Church the Table is open. Whether a person is worthy to receive the sacrament is between that person and God, the Methodist Church stays out of that decision. That pretty well sums up the differences I have with Roman Catholicism and why I remain a Methodist. Doesn&#39;t mean that I don&#39;t recognize that we have the same shared history for 1500 years. And that I greatly admire the Roman Catholic Church for saving Christianity from the dust bin during the dark ages. And everyone I&#39;m sure knows by now how I felt about the late Pope John Paul II. He was and always will be one of my heros.

 

[madame_zora]

Originally posted by surferboy+Apr 5 2005, 03:13 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(surferboy &#064; Apr 5 2005, 03:13 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by madame_zora@Apr 4 2005, 09:27 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-surferboy

@Apr 5 2005, 12:49 AM

I do love and respect you all, no matter what religion yer of (except Scientology...)


*tries to start a group hug*

[post=296972]Quoted post[/post]​

Or Jedi- get over yourselves&#33;

Nixxy, I&#39;d love to hear how you came to meet the Dalai Lama if you&#39;d care to share. My admiration for him is great and I&#39;d love to have that opportunity one day.

*Joins group hug- Chris you better not give me any shit&#33;*

[post=297048]Quoted post[/post]​

My art teacher from high school, Ms. Downey, was huge advocate for freeing Tibet. The Dalai Lama caught wind of her efforts and like, visited my school. Since I helpd with the decorations, I got to meet with him. Holy gosh, it was the most hiddie experience of my life&#33; He is SO cool&#33; I&#39;ve been blessed by priests before, but when I received his blessing, the most wonderful feeling came over me. I got to bare witness to the making of a Mandala, and the breaking ceremony. I received a blessed sash. And like, the Dalai Lama sat and talked with me and a friend of mine for almost 3 hours straight. He&#39;s like, the most off the rickt man in the world.


EDIT: Forgot to say, besides the fact that like, I&#39;ll tell anyone almost anything about myself if they ask, this is like, a story I totally love to share. Meeting the Dalai Lama is totally on my top ten list of best experiences. I was a Buddhist before meeting him, but when I got his blessing, I knew fershure.

[post=297078]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]


Wow, Nixxy, that is completely amazing, you are one fortunate guy&#33; You see, I love that man because he just showed up at some high school, with no media fanfare, and talked to some kids for hours. My nephew is in the secret service and he got to meet him too, said he was very down-to- Earth. He said they were instructed not to touch him, but then HE came and shook hands, respecting American customs&#33; There is much that is beautiful in the Buddhist religion, I hope you find great peace there.

 

[surferboy]

Yah, the Dalai Lama is like, one of the most amazing people in the world. He didn&#39;t have to talk to us, but he spent 3 hours with me and my friend. He&#39;s so like, down to earth, which I doubt can be said about the Pope. Yah, he has Polish b-boys break dance for him, but like, I so dobt the Pope would talk to two high school boys for even 5 minutes, let alone 3 hours.

 

[naughty]

NIxxi,

I want to respect your opinion, but I have to differ with you about the late Pope John Paul II. I remember when he first became Pope and one of the most striking things about him was his love of the youth and his kindness and accesibility.

Naughty

 

[surferboy]

Originally posted by naughty@Apr 6 2005, 10:29 PM
NIxxi,

I want to respect your opinion, but I have to differ with you about the late Pope John Paul II. I remember when he first became Pope and one of the most striking things about him was his love of the youth and his kindness and accesibility.

Naughty

[post=297898]Quoted post[/post]​

You can respect my opinion without agreeing with it. Saying you don&#39;t respect my opinion is a slap to the face, and somewhat hurtful.

 

[yaoifun]

*Joins in the group hug* You&#39;re SO lucky to have met him Nixxy&#33; I hope I am able to meet great people like him someday. I&#39;m technically a Christian, but I won&#39;t shut out all religions. What feels right for me is what I will be, Christian or not.

Naughty, are you saying you don&#39;t respect Nixxy&#39;s opinion? If so that&#39;s not cool&#33; I don&#39;t think you meant for it to come across that way though. It&#39;s one thing to voice your own opinion, but to say you try but can&#39;t respect someone elses is just rude and hyocritical. I don&#39;t mean to sound harsh, especially if I misunderstood, but I just don&#39;t like when people trash eachother&#39;s opinions. Everyone seems to respect eachothers opinions, and I like it that way. Again I may be totally wrong, but please try to word better next time, otherwise others might get confused, and I don&#39;t want anyone falsely accused. My apoligies if I&#39;m wrong.

I wanna try out more religions, and read up on them all thoroughly until I&#39;m totally adamant that it is the right one for me. I think that is what everyone should do, not follow what their parents taught them, but to look for themselves for once. Religion should be treated like a joke that you manipulate your kids into following. If they genuinely agree, good for them&#33; But don&#39;t close your doors in fear of them being their own person and breaking away.

 

[Freddie53]

Originally posted by surferboy@Apr 6 2005, 01:29 PM
Yah, the Dalai Lama is like, one of the most amazing people in the world. He didn&#39;t have to talk to us, but he spent 3 hours with me and my friend. He&#39;s so like, down to earth, which I doubt can be said about the Pope. Yah, he has Polish b-boys break dance for him, but like, I so dobt the Pope would talk to two high school boys for even 5 minutes, let alone 3 hours.

[post=297668]Quoted post[/post]​

Nixxie, I think the Pope when he was 58, the age he became Pope would have done so. The man that you can remember has been old and sick a long time. And I must stress the second part sick. I had an uncle who had the same illness and I know first hand how many years it took to die and what it did to a once vibrant and proud man. My uncle ended up in diapers, couldn&#39;t talk, or walk until the Parkinson&#39;s disease took him. The Pope had Parkinsons and has had it for at least 7 years that the public has known about. We don&#39;t know just how long he had it. The Vatican is not going to release the total story of his condition especially the last three years, but I am sure that he was almost totally helpless especially the last year.

The Vatican tried to hide from public view the deteriorating condition of the Pope until the end. But I can remember a strong vibrant man who did go to great lengths to speak to common man. He made a point to visit with every leader of every religion including the Dalai Lama. I wish I could remember the exact quote the Dalai Lama said about the Pope when he was told of his death, but it was a wonderful quote. And the Pope went to a Mosque, and Synagogue. I think he did the best he knew how to do.

The two men are different. They come from different cultures. No need to rank them from a world viewpoint. You never met the pope. But you met the Dalai Lama and there probably never will be anything like it ever happen again in your life.

There is no way that a very sick old man who couldn&#39;t even talk clearly his last five years who you never met could come close in your eyes to that visit that day.

But to some of the Polish people who give the Pope credit for their freedom, there will never be anyone like the Pope again either.

I understand how you feel. Personaly I had more rapport with the Pope. Why? I knew him better.

Cherish those memories with the Dalai Lama. He may be the last. We don&#39;t know what China will do to try to prevent another Dalai Lama. Last I heard the anti Buddhist Communist Chinese government was going to try to name the next one. And I understnad that may mean two men claiming the title.

One thing is for sure. Both men had to endure the scurge of living under communism. And the Pope was and the Dalai Lama is an humble person. I know of all the problems in the Catholic Church. But I don&#39;t think the Pope was the author of any of them except his insistance not to modernize the theology of the church in many ways.

So, I definitely respect your opinion. It is based on your personal experiences. Who I admire most will be based on my personal experiences.

One thing that I believe about both men. They were both humble. They both did the best they could. But both were human and subject to human mistakes. But that does not keep them from being great men.

There are no right or wrongs in this unless you want to question the character of the person that is doing the admiring.

And Nixxie, you know how I feel about you. I have never doubted your character. You are a great guy I would be proud to call son.

*Hugs and Kisses*
Love ya,

Freddie

 

[naughty]

Nixxi,

I never said I didnt respect your right to have an opinion. Though I may greatly disagree with you ,I respect your right to have your own unique view and opinion on the subject. Though I am not a Catholic, I respect the Pope as I do the Dalai Lama in their roles as the leaders of two of the world&#39;s great religions. I may not believe certain tenants of either faith , but I don&#39;t presume to know the inner thoughts and motives of either of these men let alone anyone else&#39;s.

Naughty

 

[surferboy]

Bullshit, that&#39;s not what you said. You said you want to respect my opinion, meaning you don&#39;t. I&#39;m sorry, but to me, that&#39;s harsh.

 

[naughty]

Originally posted by surferboy+Apr 7 2005, 05:06 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(surferboy &#064; Apr 7 2005, 05:06 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-naughty@Apr 6 2005, 10:29 PM
NIxxi, 

I want to respect your opinion, but I have to differ with you about the late Pope John Paul II. I remember when he first became Pope and one of the most striking things about him was his love of the youth and his kindness and accesibility.

Naughty

[post=297898]Quoted post[/post]​

You can respect my opinion without agreeing with it. Saying you don&#39;t respect my opinion is a slap to the face, and somewhat hurtful.

[post=297932]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]


Nixxi,

What can I say? I am not going to argue with you . I think your last statement to me spoke volumes . Respect begets respect.


Naughty

 

[surferboy]

I totally agree, but you disrespected me first. You told me that you cannot respect my opinion. That is a gigantic slap in my face. You just told me my opinion doesn&#39;t matter, simply because our opinions differ. So, I guess you and my grandpa have something in common. So, like, don&#39;t go around saying "respect begets respect" when you disrespected me fist.

 

[Faeros]

*sits back and watches the show with some popcorn.*

 

[prepstudinsc]

I think that Naughty wasn&#39;t dissing anyone...she was simply stating that she was respecting Nixxy&#39;s opinion, but totally disagreeing with it.

I disagree with Naughty&#39;s opinion of the Pope, however, and while he did take great interest in youth, he wouldn&#39;t have spent that kind of time with anybody. He doesn&#39;t (or didn&#39;t) spend hours with anyone except maybe the world&#39;s leaders and then it is to express HIS opinions about what they&#39;ve done. No other church leader is allowed to go to meetings with heads of state and tell them what they&#39;ve done is wrong--church leaders make speeches about it, write articles about it, etc.

In his defense, the Pope was probably not allowed to do a lot of the things that he wanted to do out of church protocol, but I just have a major problem with how the theocracy, the pomp and circumstance of the Catholic Church, not to mention the doctrinal issues that are not in the Bible--but that&#39;s just my reformation era Protestantism coming out.

 

[naughty]

Prepstud,

I think you are probably very right about the structure of the Catholic Church creating a heirarchy that would prevent any type of close contact such as Nixxi witnessed with the Dalai Lama. I was basing my comments on the knowledge that as a professor much earlier in his life and career when such contact was possible it was known of his love for youth.

I am so glad that someone gets what I actually did say to Nixxi. I think this is probably why the old adage about not discussing politics or religion in company exists.


Naughty

 

[13788]

NelsonMuntz84:

Originally posted by prepstudinsc@Apr 7 2005, 01:27 PM
I think that Naughty wasn&#39;t dissing anyone...she was simply stating that she was respecting Nixxy&#39;s opinion, but totally disagreeing with it.

I disagree with Naughty&#39;s opinion of the Pope, however, and while he did take great interest in youth, he wouldn&#39;t have spent that kind of time with anybody. He doesn&#39;t (or didn&#39;t) spend hours with anyone except maybe the world&#39;s leaders and then it is to express HIS opinions about what they&#39;ve done. No other church leader is allowed to go to meetings with heads of state and tell them what they&#39;ve done is wrong--church leaders make speeches about it, write articles about it, etc.

In his defense, the Pope was probably not allowed to do a lot of the things that he wanted to do out of church protocol, but I just have a major problem with how the theocracy, the pomp and circumstance of the Catholic Church, not to mention the doctrinal issues that are not in the Bible--but that&#39;s just my reformation era Protestantism coming out.

[post=298005]Quoted post[/post]​

I&#39;d also add that its probably due to the fact that when the pope comes to country like mine, which is mostly protestant, he needs to watch incase he gets shot, and has only been allowed here once in 400 years.

the Dalai Lama was allowed to walk around Glasgow with no problems.

 

[madame_zora]

Yeah, Nelson, and that in itself speaks volumes.

 

[prepstudinsc]

Naughty-
One thing that really gets me riled up is the Catholic church saying that it&#39;s been around for 2000 years. Well I would like to hear what the Orthodox churches say about that. Considering that for just over 1000 years they were one. I&#39;d really like to know what the Syriac Orthodox Church has to say, considering that IT traces it&#39;s beginnings to St. Peter.

The church as it stands now is so radically different from anything that Jesus would know. The Catholic church with all of it&#39;s man made doctrines and shady history, my evangelical world with the cheesy TV preachers like Jan and Paul Crouch, Benny Hinn, and Robert Tilton, people using their so called religious influence to get into politics (Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson). It&#39;s no wonder that people don&#39;t take Christianity seriously...we&#39;re supposed to have faith the size of a mustard seed, but it takes faith the size of Mt. Everest to actually believe these days.

The heirarchy that exisists in the Catholic church didn&#39;t exist in Jesus&#39; time and while his Disciples tried to shield him from the masses, Jesus always found time to spend with people. Christianity is a religion of relationships and how can you spread the Gospel if you can&#39;t spend time with your followers? Jesus and the Disciples were always among the people, but the Cardinals, Bishops, and the Pope aren&#39;t among the people...what&#39;s wrong with this picture? If Jesus wasn&#39;t too good for the ordinary, and especially the down trodden, why is an ordinary man too good for the people? Yes, I know society has changed, but human need hasn&#39;t.
Driving through the crowd isn&#39;t the same as spending time with people.
While I don&#39;t agree with any of the Dalai Lama&#39;s religious beliefs, I have to give him credit for taking the time to spend a couple of hours with Nixxy and his classmate and teacher. That shows me that the Dalai Lama understands human need and that he&#39;s a servant. Jesus was a servant. A true religious leader is one, too. Here endeth the lesson...