Last rites for John Paul II

[Freddie53]

Thanks for your wonderful essay on this subject. It has been too long since I studied this to remember the details, but you confirmed what I said and thank you. I was hoping that you would have an opportunity to explain this. You did such a better job then I did.

My prayer is that under the new Pope, liturgical Protestants and Catholics can completely heal the schism that happend in the Protestant Reformation. I know that in the Methodist Church you can receive the Sacrament and I have Catholic relatives that have received Holy Communion in our Methodist Church. But my Catholic friends tell me that I can go to the front and receive a blessing from the priest, but I can't take Holy Communion unless I am Cathoic or Orthodox. But then I have another friend who is Catholic who says that yes Protestants can take Holy Communion. I know you can clarify this point for me.

Another point. It is my understanding from what I was taught that the position of Patriarch of Antioch is vacant as the city was never rebuilt. It is also my understanding that there are several patriarchs in Jerusalem all idenified with other churches. As in there is a Latin Patriarch which is Roman Cathoic, an Orthodox Patriarch, a Coptic Patriarch and I think some others. Whem tje Holy Land was taken over by the Muslims the Christian Church there suffered and Jerusalme lsot its itendity as a separate chruch with its own unique Patriarch.

In closing, Jacinto, my prayers are with you and all Christians, especially Cahtolic Christians. The funeral is only four hours away. The crowds are unprecedented. Oh what that says of a remarkable man who left this world with absolutely no material possessions, but left a legacy that no billionaire could ever hope to attain.

I myself already have my alarm set so I can watch the entire service. I will record it just in case I fall asleep and so I can view it later.

I doubt there will ever be a Christian religious person to match the Pope in my lifetime. He deserves to be named John Paul the Great. I hope the process of becoming a saint goes on the fast track for him. He has earned the title of St. John Paul. I know that it takes a minimum number of years and for good reason.

Again, my prayers are with you personally. I highly respect you. I make so many typos now and my eyes are not that good some of the time. So I simply don't see the mistakes. Though on printed paper they are very apparent to me. But on this screen? No. But there was a time when I was considered one of the top English teachers in the school district. Of course it was sixth grade, not senior English.

In the darkness of night as you watch the Celebration of the LIfe of John Paul II and the Celebration of the Requim Mass, remember that I will be awake and worshiping with you.

Freddie

Originally posted by DoubleMeatWhopper+Apr 7 2005, 09:10 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DoubleMeatWhopper &#064; Apr 7 2005, 09:10 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-prepstudinsc@Apr 7 2005, 10:11 PM
The Roman church considers itself the one true church and thinks that the Orthodox churches are heretical

Not so. Pope Paul VI removed the excommunication of the Eastern Orthodox in Jerusalem in 1964. The Orthodox are allowed to receive communion in a Catholic Church today. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of the Orthodox view of the situation. Except for those Greek Orthodox under the jurisdiction of his All Holiness Bartholomaios, Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, the Eastern Orthodox congregations still view the Catholics as being heretics. Even in the dioceses under the Patriarch of Constantinople, a Catholic has to receive a special dispensation in order to share the Eucharist at an Orthodox liturgy.

The concept of one Patriarch being higher than another is foreign to all the Eastern Orthodox churches.  All the Partiarchs are viewed as equal working in tandem over their respective jurisdiction.  The Roman Patriarch taking charge and continuing to rule to this day was not the way that the position was set up to be.

Yes and no. Before the Great Schism, the Bishop of Rome held the place of honour as the primer inter pares (&#39;the first among equals&#39, even by the patriarchs of the East. Though the fact is largely ignored today, the Eastern Christians of the early Church deferred to the Pope. The bishops turned to the Pope to settle disputes rather than to their respective patriarchs. The Patriarch of Constantinople can trace his lineage back to Peter, as can the Patriarch of Antioch, but Rome was still the city of Peter and Paul, where they eventually met their martyrdoms. Today, the Eastern Orthodox Churches view Constantinople as the New Rome, and the Patriarch of Constantinople bears the title &#39;His All Holiness&#39;, unlike the other Easter Patriarchs who are called &#39;His Beatitude&#39;. Though they don&#39;t all agree with his opinions or fall under his jurisdiction, Eastern Orthodox Christians consider His All Holiness as today&#39;s primer inter pares among their ranks, and the deference is apparent during Pan-Orthodox synods. The idea of a head honcho among the ecclesiastical hierarchy is in no way foreign to Eastern Orthodoxy; the only change is that the Bishop of Rome no longer holds that position.

[post=298256]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]

 

[13788]

hung_big: Bajesus Freddie&#33;

I have to set aside half a day to read your very interesting and informative posts.

You have no idea how much I&#39;ve learned from you, just by observation. The most important being compassion and forgiveness&#33;

 

[Freddie53]

Originally posted by hung_big@Apr 7 2005, 10:33 PM
Bajesus Freddie&#33;

I have to set aside half a day to read your very interesting and informative posts.

You have no idea how much I&#39;ve learned from you, just by observation. The most important being compassion and forgiveness&#33;

[post=298301]Quoted post[/post]​

Spread the love, forgive and be compassionate. Nothing brings fulfillmnet like that. And takes away hatred as well.

And thanks son.

:wub: :hug: :loveya: :wow: :wub:

 

[surferboy]

Respect is not a one way street, you cannot expect it for yourself if you will not give it to others, and by commenting on certain issues you dont know about, and basically out lining why the leader of your faith is better than the pope it stinks of saying my believes are better than yours.

I wasn&#39;t disrepecting anyone in this topic, nor was I direspeting anyone&#39;s faith. I was, however, stating my distain towards the Pope, and I have every right to do so. I don&#39;t hold my faith higher than anyone else&#39;s faith. The problem both you and Naughty seem to be having is that you think my opinions are an attack on yer faith, and it&#39;s not. And don&#39;t pull that "respect is not a one way street" card.

As I said, I never once disrespected anyone. Now, here comes Naughty from left field saying that she&#39;s "trying to respect" my opinion. That implies that she doesn&#39;t respect my opinion. I&#39;m not asking anyone here to agree with my opinion. It&#39;s totally yer right to have an opinion that differs from mine. But to say you don&#39;t repsect my opinion because you don&#39;t agree with it? Practice what you preach. Don&#39;t expect respect if you can&#39;t respect me.

Nixxy: Come on, don&#39;t be so critical. I don&#39;t think she meant to disresepect you. She&#39;s not that type of lady. Though I agree with her opinion (respecting the Pope) I hold your opinion in the highest esteem. But I wouldn&#39;t suggest making judgement calls on someone you haven&#39;t met. *Kiss*

If she didn&#39;t mean what I thought she meant, she would have told me when I confronted her about it. Instead I get this, "I think your last statement to me spoke volumes . Respect begets respect." Like I said, practice what you preach. I don&#39;t wanna make enemies here, and I don&#39;t wanna upset anyone. I love everyone here. But to say yer only "trying to respect" my opinion is hurtful.

Nah ... it&#39;s not animosity. It&#39;s discussion, and discussion can be a healthy thing. I might not agree with Nix&#39;s view on the man I respected as my spiritual shepherd, but that doesn&#39;t mean I hate or bear any ill will towards him. Hell, I&#39;d give him a hug and a kiss right now&#33;

Exactly. I totally encourage discussion. When I&#39;m a teacher, I&#39;m gonna encourage my students to hold open discussions in class about whatever we&#39;re studying at the time. And I&#39;d gladly accept that hug and kiss from you brah. :wub:

No, it&#39;s not the only reason. I&#39;d kiss him because I consider him a friend. That he&#39;s über sexy is the reason I&#39;d slip him some tongue during that kiss.

*slips in some tongue* :wub: :wub:

 

[2322]

In 1994 I was privileged to attend a papal audience in St. Peter&#39;s square. We had not planned it this way but I decided to attend the audience if only to see the pope in person.

Somehow I was up near the very front, right at the railing that separated the dais on the steps from the square itself. I could see the pope and he was not more than 20 feet away. Immediately to my left on the other side of the railing was a row of disabled (for lack of a better word and my apologies if it&#39;s offensive) spastics who required crash helmets and physical restraints to keep them from harming themselves. These were the inmates of an institution outside of Rome.

Toward the end of the audience the pope came down from the dais, into the light rain, his white and scarlet robes blowing in the breeze and all kinds of attendants struggling to protect him from the drizzle. Karol knelt down on the hard stone, in front of each of these disabled people, and talked to them.

I was blown away. No more than 20 feet from me the pope was kneeling in the rain, ruining his robes&#33; He greeted each person with a smile and a blessing, talked to each person for as long as he wanted. The attendants were in a flurry taking the pope&#39;s arm to move him along as the audience was obviously going into severe overtime, but Karol would not be moved. He conversed with each person in their own time taking care to be personal, make jokes, and discuss whatever they wanted. For these 5 or 6 people he spent nearly an hour kneeling on the cold stone in what must have been awful pain yet he did not show it. His aides were so exasperated, trying to cover him with their umbrellas and, finally, folding their own coats onto the stone for John Paul to kneel on.

John Merrick, history&#39;s "Elephant Man", once said the best day of his life was when he was introduced to a Princess. The princess had been warned about how he looked, was told he was beneath being in her presence but still she wanted to meet the famous Elephant Man. Merrick wrote about this and stated that she was the only woman who greeted him without any sign of disgust. That she smiled, looked him in the eye, and talked to him as she would any other man. All her royal training was put to use that day, she would say after meeting Merrick, but for him, he was astounded and cherished the memory of being an ordinary man if only for a few hours, every day for the rest of his life.

For these severely disabled people, shuttered away in an institution, I can only describe their faces as those of people whom had just seen the face of God. As they filed past me their nurses were crying, I could hear that; but the faces of the disabled&#33; I had never before seen such a look on the faces of anyone nor have I since. That the Pope, one of the most famous and important men in the world, would take time to speak to them, greet them, laugh with them, hug and bless them like anyone else must have just been astonishing. It was such a selfless act of pure grace that I was moved to tears myself. This man was a saint. There is no doubt in my mind he will be canonized.

I may not agree with all his positions or with the theology of the Church he represents, but I believe he was a good man among his common men and spoke for the conscience of the world. His work toward the fall of Communism in Eastern Europe, against tyranny in Central America, and for democracy throughout the world makes him a person worthy of respect. So few world leaders are free to speak their heart or have the moral authority to reprimand other governments and John Paul liberally used that authority. If you knew no other Pope, you wouldn&#39;t know, but it&#39;s far too common for Popes to hole-up in the Vatican, never traveling out, and only waving from a window a few times a year. They have been largely silent figures speaking only to those of their faith, speaking only rarely on world events. John-Paul&#39;s rule was a revolution in the Papacy and, overall, a force for good in a world starved of compassionate leadership. May his example stand for all future popes and, indeed, all spiritual leaders in the world at this time of religious conflict.

Nix,

If you are a Buddhist and you truly believe in the teachings of the Dalai Lama then listen to him in this:

Dharamsala, April 2 - His Holiness the Dalai Lama expressed his sadness over the worsening health of Pope John Paul II as the Vatican prepares for his approaching death. Italian media have reported that Cardinals who will elect the next pope are arriving in Rome from all over the world.

"I am deeply saddened by the deteriorating health of Pope John Paul II. I have heard that he is in a very serious health condition and that prayers are held everywhere in the world. We will also pray for the pope&#39;s life", said His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

His Holiness told the gathering that the pope has worked immensely for the poor and underprivileged people of the world and that prayers should be said so that philanthropists like the pope could live longer to benefit the entire humanity.

His Holiness the Dalai Lama was speaking today at the initiation of Sangwa Gyachen (the sealed secrets) being given here at the Tsuglakhang main temple.

His Holiness said that the Tibetans have a special relation with the Christians ever since our arrival in India as they have extended humanitarian assistance to the displaced Tibetans during our early days in India.

"Personally, when I first met the pope, who originates from Poland, I felt very close to him as we hailed from a common background of having lived under communist regimes."

His Holiness said that though the Pope has not shown his support to the Tibetan cause openly he has been a very strong supporter of the Tibetan cause. "Whenever I met him he was very attentive and sympathetic to the Tibetan cause."

His Holiness has met the pope eight times with the first meeting between the two religious leaders taking place on 9 October 1980. His Holiness last met the pope during the Tibetan leader&#39;s visit to Italy in November 2003.

The strong bond of friendship between His Holiness the Dalai Lama and Pope John Paul II is apparent in the fact that His Holiness has met the Catholic head the most number of times than any other important personality in the world.

-----------------------------------------------------​

Though the voices of peace may not agree, do not let that dismay you. Listen to the theme of the message with an open heart. I liken it to family. There are things members of my family do, things they think or believe, that make me furious; yet I love them with all my heart for the good and wonderful people they are.

The world so needs leaders who truly believe in the goodness of love and peace. Do not dismiss them so wholeheartedly. If we cannot agree on everything, let us agree that harmony is the grace of good acts and tolerance for our differences.

Nix, you&#39;re a charming, impetuous, and good-humored man with a hot bod, great hair, and a big cock. Give the rest of us a break. Don&#39;t ruin it all in hate. Sometimes recognizing and respecting the limitations of our fellow men is the most difficult thing to accept as an adult.

Time for you to read, or if you have already, The Red Book of Westmarch. There are dark, horrible forces at work in the world. Stand with the light.

 

[13788]

NelsonMuntz84:

Originally posted by surferboy@Apr 8 2005, 08:11 AM
I wasn&#39;t disrepecting anyone in this topic, nor was I direspeting anyone&#39;s faith. I was, however, stating my distain towards the Pope, and I have every right to do so. I don&#39;t hold my faith higher than anyone else&#39;s faith. The problem both you and Naughty seem to be having is that you think my opinions are an attack on yer faith, and it&#39;s not. And don&#39;t pull that "respect is not a one way street" card.

As I said, I never once disrespected anyone. Now, here comes Naughty from left field saying that she&#39;s "trying to respect" my opinion. That implies that she doesn&#39;t respect my opinion. I&#39;m not asking anyone here to agree with my opinion. It&#39;s totally yer right to have an opinion that differs from mine. But to say you don&#39;t repsect my opinion because you don&#39;t agree with it? Practice what you preach. Don&#39;t expect respect if you can&#39;t respect me.

[post=298343]Quoted post[/post]​

Nixie you stated you wouldn&#39;t say something nice about the Pope just because he was dead, the lesson there is if you can&#39;t say anything nice, dont say anything at all.

You also said the Nazi guy you have heard about, in others words you didn&#39;t really know who he was, but someone told you something and you believed it.

You deemed that one man would prefer to spend more time with people than another, when in reality you dont know.

Your opinion isn&#39;t fact and the basic tone through this thread from you has been what I believe is right. Basically you came across arrogant.

When your 84 y/o and looking back at your life, compare it to the Pope and see if you did as much for your people or family, and fufiled your life in the manner he did. Its easy to judge others, its harder to learn lessons from their lives.

I&#39;d also suggest going reading about his life, and not just whats on cnn or fox news, if your going to be a teacher, teach about facts, not hearsay and opinions.

Also different people took the same out of your posts, maybe you didn&#39;t mean it to sound the way it did, but it came across with a clear tone, you should reflect on why 3 different people took the same thing out of what you have written on this thread.

Also you way over-reacted to what Naughty said, and its interesting that people have picked up on your tone, but seem to have missed her&#39;s. Also if you are serious about being a buddhist maybe reflect on your tone with her and how your meant to resolve conflict, not go in a huff.

I wont post anymore on this because I&#39;ve said my piece and I dont want you to feel I&#39;m picking on you, when I&#39;m not, I just think you should reflect a wee bit on this thread.

 

[13788]

NelsonMuntz84:

Originally posted by prepstudinsc@Apr 8 2005, 02:25 AM
For many years, Catholics couldn&#39;t attend Protestant services, so what&#39;s the difference.  My grandparents and other relatives tell me about how they weren&#39;t allowed to go to funerals of friends back in the 1940&#39;s and 1950&#39;s, or even go to church services of other denominations.  I think it was only relaxed after Vatican II. 

I can understand why in somewhere like Northern Ireland it&#39;s just not safe to have friends of the opposite faith (Catholic vs. Protestant) or attend the other church, but in most other places it really shouldn&#39;t make a difference.

[post=298235]Quoted post[/post]​

The fact is in 2005 a hardcore Calvinist here cannot have Catholic friends and if he attends a Catholic funeral, will be chucked out his church, if that was a Catholic law, people would mental about it.

The difference is you mentioned the 40 and 50&#39;s, I&#39;m talking about now, the idea for Calvinists here to think the Pope is the antichrist and yet they cannot even attend the funeral of someone Catholic they like is a bit rich. There different Protestant groups here, and not are all are like that, but the &#39;Wee Free&#39;s&#39; are the hard-core Calvinst group and still think their should be ethnic cleansing to remove the Catholic population, go off their head when catholics are called christians, and call people like myself the son&#39;s of satan... its not exactly easy goin fun stuff when it comes to them. :lol: they are also to be fair the minority of Protestants here, but to many Protestants here are anti Catholic rather than pro-anything.

I understand it may have evolved and developed in America etc, but to many here, their still in year 1 of the reformation and everything is a catholic plot. :evilgrin: B)

You should read &#39;Confessions of a justfied sinner&#39; by James Hogg, you&#39;d really like it, get a book of old Scottish phrases though, its murder to read even for someone from here. :lol: It also managed to scare the crap out of me&#33;&#33;&#33; :evilgrin:

 

[naughty]

Good Morning,

I had no idea this would be such a volatile thread when I created it days ago. I my self while not a Catholic, had the opportunity to witness Pope John Paul at the beginning of his time as Supreme Pontiff of the Roman Catholic Church. Though there were many of his decisions that many may not have agreed with , one can not deny his legacy to the World. For that reason, I wanted to give those who wished to do so the opportunity to post their remembrances of him.
This thread has been educational for me in many ways .I have had the opportunity to learn about the Catholic faith through the eyes of a number of our members, regardless of individual faith. Thank you DMW and Freddie for your insightful essays on Church history and dogma. Thanks Nelson and Lapdog for your views of your faith as you have experienced it here and in Scotland. Thanks PrepstudinSC for your opposing views as a practicing Protestant. Jana, thank you for you macro view of world spirituality and brotherhood. Thanks Chris for trying to fly a white flag in the face of controversy. Finally, I would like to thank Nixxi.
I would like to say to you, Nixxi that I had no intention of offending or disrespecting you as a person or your opinions. I had no idea that the way in which I crafted that post would caused you to feel so abused. I thank you because you served as a lightning rod for examining my own feelings. When I first read your response to my comment, I was so non plussed that I felt I needed to explain it,to defend myself. When you continued to express anger and resorted to profanity to get your point across, I really felt very angry, hurt and discouraged . On the flip side of your argument I too felt disrespected and was quite leave the board yesterday. But the soothing voices of a number of friends here on the board helped me to step back, reflect and write this post today. You may never chose to accept my apology for any offense taken here, but in the spirit of peace I am offering it anyway. Nothing has ever been accomplished with two immovable objects. I could not truly call myself a Christian and not do everything in my power to end conflict. I hope that everyone here on this day of John Paul II&#39;s funeral whatever your faith will take some time to reflect on our own personal legacies. Do we want to be known for bringing peace or for holding our ground regardless of the cost. It is each of ours to decide.


Naughty

 

[surferboy]

I&#39;ve said what I had to say. I&#39;m not gonna continue to argue. I feel I&#39;m getting ganged up on. Yes, I called the guy a Nazi because that&#39;s what I heard. Oh no&#33; The world is coming to an end because I believe something I was told&#33; Give it a rest. Yer all allowing yer personal feelings to take control. Ya know, forbid I should have my own opinions. Oh, and Nelson, everyone&#39;s opinions are just that, opinions. You can&#39;t have an opinion as a fact.

 

[Freddie53]

Originally posted by surferboy@Apr 8 2005, 10:44 AM
I&#39;ve said what I had to say. I&#39;m not gonna continue to argue. I feel I&#39;m getting ganged up on. Yes, I called the guy a Nazi because that&#39;s what I heard. Oh no&#33; The world is coming to an end because I believe something I was told&#33; Give it a rest. Yer all allowing yer personal feelings to take control. Ya know, forbid I should have my own opinions. Oh, and Nelson, everyone&#39;s opinions are just that, opinions. You can&#39;t have an opinion as a fact.

[post=298411]Quoted post[/post]​

Nixxie,

I love you and you know that. There are a lot of things about the Catholic Church I dnn&#39;t agree with And I think you are being jumped on a little too harshly. You based your opiononis on what you know. We all do. It is just that the older of us remember when the Pope could do all those things you admire. He couldn&#39;t do it the last few years. So you never got to see it. But he was a good man.

And you are a great guy. I just read that the investigation and institution of changes to prevent another priest molesting a boy or a girl was continuing under the Pope&#39;s direction and was postponed until the next Pope is elected. The commission was almost finished. Writing rules and regulations to cover different cultures and different political systems world wide isn&#39;t easy.

The church did cooperate with the authorities and paid money out to the victims. And some of those priests are in jail now. The problem is that the statue of limitations had run out on some of the priests and some had already retired. Legaly in the United States, no retirement program can take away the retirement that you have accumulated. That is federal law. And some guys did not want to testify in court, so some priests got away with what they did.

I am hoping and praying that any additional changes that need to be made will be made. Some changes have already been made at the order of the Pope. But remember that it is the Archbishop or Bishop of each diocese that actually administrates and makes day to day decisions for that diocese. A diocese is an geographical area under the direction of an Bishop or Archbishop. So it still falls into the Bishop&#39;s authority to solve a local church problem. Local church problems rarely make it to the Pope.

But human nature is what is is. Anytime you have one billion people belonging to the same church, there will be a few bad apples. All we can do is try to identfy those bad apples and prevent them from doing something wrong.

You respect the Dalai Lama and I don&#39;t blame you. Each of us have different reasons for respecting who we respect. We all have our heroes. And we all don&#39;t pick the same ones.

One suggestion to you is always be open minded and listen to what and more importantly WHY others believe what they do. Sometimes it will make you even more sure that they are wrong. Other times it will cause you to reconsider what you think about what they believe and you may change your mind.

And another thing I have learned is to check out your facts for yourself. Just because I said that I read something doesn&#39;t make it so. I may have misread it or remember it incorrectly.

I know. As I teacher I have drillled certain informatin into the heads of the students. And on test day, some had it remembered all wrong. Much to my dismay.

There is a chance that the "Nazi" may be the next Pope. I am reading up on him. The people in countries like Poland may never accept him. According to what I have read, which may or may not be true, he did join the Nazi Party as a youth. But then all the youth were "strongly encourged" to join the youth division of the Nazi Party. So I am following the advice that I gave you. I am keeping an open mind about the "guy" I will wait to see what he has to say if he is elected Pope. Right now I have my reservations of him being a good Pope. Even though he may be an innocent as can be, I don&#39;t know if the Jews and Poles and people ttat were so tramped on by the Nazis can accept him. And he is 77 years old already. But if he shows himself trustworthy and truly apologizes for any role he had as a youth I can forgive and accept. I am waiting without opinion right now.

Again, I love you and hate it that you felt jumped on. I know from experience that is not a good feeling to feel jumped on.

I feel honored you hold me in such high esteem. I will always work to try to keep earning your love and respect.

Love you,
Freddie
*Big Hugs and Kisses*
We will not slip in the tongue since you love my like a father.
But, damn, you are so cute&#33;

 

[13788]

NelsonMuntz84:

Originally posted by surferboy@Apr 8 2005, 04:44 PM
I&#39;ve said what I had to say. I&#39;m not gonna continue to argue. I feel I&#39;m getting ganged up on. Yes, I called the guy a Nazi because that&#39;s what I heard. Oh no&#33; The world is coming to an end because I believe something I was told&#33; Give it a rest. Yer all allowing yer personal feelings to take control. Ya know, forbid I should have my own opinions. Oh, and Nelson, everyone&#39;s opinions are just that, opinions. You can&#39;t have an opinion as a fact.

[post=298411]Quoted post[/post]​

Saying someone is Nazi when it isn&#39;t true isn&#39;t something I&#39;d indulge in to much, I tend to try deal in facts when it comes to that type of thing or you just end up making an arse of yourself.

 

[jonb]

Um, Nixxy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin&#39;s_law

 

[naughty]

OMG Jonb,

Don&#39;t make me laugh, please&#33; Where do you find this stuff?


Naughty

 

[madame_zora]

I have stayed conspicuously quiet here, hoping there would be more of a sense of resolve given time. My personal feeling about my families&#39; experiences in the Catholic church make it impossible for me to debate passionlessly, so for once I&#39;ve chosen to keep my opinions to myself.

As for the debate here though, the issue I can and will comment on is between two much loved members of the board. Nixxy and Naughty, I think the two of you are not far off in your views, but emotional things like this tend to bring out impassioned responses (see: almost every post I&#39;ve written here&#33.

Nixxy, in AA there are 12 steps to recovery, fisrt there is "becomming willing to make amends to those you have harmed" and then "Made direct amends to those you have harmed, except when to do so would injure them or others." (steps 6 and 7 for those interested). The point is, that becomming willing is an actual part of a process. I feel that if Naughty said she was trying to respect your view, she was probably saying it is one she is not familiar with, but worth finding out more about it. In all likelihood, we are all reading far more into this than there ever was, in all probability, it was a simple issue of semantics. I know you feel what you feel deeply, in all things. It it one of your more appealing qualities. I have read your responses, and I can tell you that my own personal knowledge of Naughty makes it impossible for me to believe that she would wish ill one anyone, nor does she think any less of people whose views are not her own.
One thing I do know is that she is not on "the debate team" as such around here, and was probably more shocked than annoyed that you took her words to be offensive.
Now, I don&#39;t want to put words in anyone&#39;s mouth, but that is the conclusion I draw from reading this.

Naughty, I see you as an ambassador of good will around here, I daresay I imagine the same holds true for you in real life. For some of us, it is hard to overlook the things that "slipped by" under this pope&#39;s tenure. I think the fact that he must be protected at all times is telling of the conflict in opinions that exist surrounding him, and the Catholic church. There are very few religous leaders who require such protection, sadly this feeling has had many, many years to come to a boil. Nixxy is of a religion that takes a very different approach. The Dalai Lama is under very little protection, garners very little media attention for his "good works", in fact we hear very little about him. Most people like him, knowing nothing about his life. Maybe they think of him as "some nice old guy" or maybe as "a strong spiritual leader", but very few are angry. Nixxy is very young and impassioned, you are my age and slower to move. I understand this well. I know you were struck by surprise at the way your words were taken, and I hope you will, in your wisdom, find a way to smile at the purity of youth and remember what we felt like when everything was new and our own world was forming.

You guys both bring me so much joy, I know in the end you will probably punch each other in the arm, maybe not soon, but smile at your familiarity with each other. I love you both dearly and wish us all well. Jana

 

[jeepwranglerboi]

Jonb, you crack me up&#33; Your knowledge boggles my mind.

Jana, how eloquently put as always. Beautiful post from a beautiful person directed toward two beautiful people.

Yes, The Pope was an advocate of a few issues that I strongly disagree on but I can also recognize the multitude of, as Martha Stewart would say, "Good Things" that he has done or put into motion. Please do not misconstrue my words into painting me into a nice Italian catholic boy because I am certainly not one. I cannot say that I am even close to being as versed on The Pope and the Roman Catholic church as many other members here are but I do recognize that he has indeed done some good in this world. I don&#39;t necessarily mourn his death but neither do I relish in it. I have chosen to not let it effect me but I certainly have respect and compassion for those that are affected.

 

[Freddie53]

Originally posted by jonb@Apr 8 2005, 12:49 PM
Um, Nixxy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin&#39;s_law

[post=298432]Quoted post[/post]​

Just curious? Just how high is your IQ? As a teacher this is my opinion of your intellect. I would love to hear from you and see how correct I am.

First. You can read fast and have full comprehension.
Two: You have a photographic memory. For those who don&#39;t know what that means, it is like looking at a page in a book and making a picture of it and that picture can always be accessed. Hense, memory once learned is not only there but accessible in the correct form with proper terms and details and all.

IQ pencil and paper tests show people like you to have high IQ&#39;s. However, IQ&#39;s that involve problem solving, kenisthitic, (wrong spelling) is not directly related to pencil and paper IQ tests. They can be 40 points difference.

Now, a person can have full comprehension and photgraphic memory and have no problem solving skills.

Jonb, if I were going to guess, I would say you have well above average IQ and that points one and two above are also correct. I won&#39;t even try to guess about your ability to take a car apart and put it back together. Yet I know kids who can do taht without taking a course in mechanics.

But I marvel at your grasp of so much information. I can&#39;t spell and never could and it is getting worse. And my ability to remember those details gets weaker every year.

But I have the greatest respect for you. No doubt you are overall the smartest person on this forum. If not the smartest, certainly the most informed.

 

[Freddie53]

Jeep What a wonderful attitude. You set the example of an attitude to have toward people that you aren&#39;t especially close to, but you want to respect the ones that are grieving. Thank you so much for posting. Your words were wonderful.

Love you baby :evilgrin:
Freddie

Originally posted by jeepwranglerboi@Apr 8 2005, 01:46 PM
Jonb, you crack me up&#33; Your knowledge boggles my mind.

Jana, how eloquently put as always. Beautiful post from a beautiful person directed toward two beautiful people.

Yes, The Pope was an advocate of a few issues that I strongly disagree on but I can also recognize the multitude of, as Martha Stewart would say, "Good Things" that he has done or put into motion. Please do not misconstrue my words into painting me into a nice Italian catholic boy because I am certainly not one. I cannot say that I am even close to being as versed on The Pope and the Roman Catholic church as many other members here are but I do recognize that he has indeed done some good in this world. I don&#39;t necessarily mourn his death but neither do I relish in it. I have chosen to not let it effect me but I certainly have respect and compassion for those that are affected.

[post=298463]Quoted post[/post]​

 

[naughty]

Wow,

This really was a wonderful way to end the week. Jana, Freddie, and JWB thanks for interjecting your love and patience here. Nelson thanks for the tough love, and JONB you are our resident factmeister&#33; We really should never let any subject no matter how heart felt get us to the point where we close all chance of communication. I am more and more realizing that each of us bring our own filters to the table whenever we are discussing religion. I do not have to bring up the many heinous things that have been done in the name of God. But we cant lose hope. There are just as many or more people out here who really do care and want to reach out and help. We see it in action today.

Naughty

 

[Freddie53]

Jana,

As usual you come through with such deep thought provoking thoughts on subjects like this. You should be weriting for a national paper. And I love your new picture. You really are beautiful.

With love.

Freddie

Originally posted by madame_zora@Apr 8 2005, 01:06 PM
I have stayed conspicuously quiet here, hoping there would be more of a sense of resolve given time. My personal feeling about my families&#39; experiences in the Catholic church make it impossible for me to debate passionlessly, so for once I&#39;ve chosen to keep my opinions to myself.

You guys both bring me so much joy, I know in the end you will probably punch each other in the arm, maybe not soon, but smile at your familiarity with each other. I love you both dearly and wish us all well. Jana

[post=298440]Quoted post[/post]​

 

[madame_zora]

@Freddie, you know I love you like a long lost brother, you&#39;ve been nothing but patient and kind to every person you encounter. What an excellent way to spend your writing time here. As for jonb, if I had to guess (as I so love to do) I would estimate his measurable IQ at between 140 and 160. I&#39;d also like to know how close I got.

@jonb, hope it&#39;s not insulting to make your brainpower a subject of speculation, we all admire your intelligence so much. It doesn&#39;t really matter what the number is, the fact that you are extremely bright is evident enough. Is it wrong if I lust after your brain a little?

@Jeep, you know, I never hear enough from you. I love your tender heart, and the way you bring reality into focus. I&#39;m planning to stop by on you sometime this summer when I&#39;m in NY, so we can go to Starschmucks&#33;

And now, everyone join me in a group hug LPSG style&#33;