Laura Ongaro on why women cheat

Drifterwood

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Selective reading, like selective hearing. You focused on part of what I was saying and not the point I was trying to get across.

The women writing the article said women need men to cuddle with and buy them shoes.

Not
<<<<this woman.

I have two feet and I can stand on my own. However, I enjoy falling in love and sharing who I am with someone that's special to me. I was being a smartass. I can buy for myself, cuddle with my cat, the NEED is to reproduce, the WANT is for love and everything else that makes that person a part of my life. Without that person I just exist.

You know, I think people stay together for more similar reasons than they part.

But I'll take you at your word if you'll agree to pre-nups that give either party very short term liabilities for maybe rent (a couple of years) and maintenance of kids.

Deal?
 

Drifterwood

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the WANT is for love and everything else that makes that person a part of my life. Without that person I just exist.

The point of the latter articles which I posted, is that that person can change every four or so years, and as a sideline that the previous one can be left bemused and the object of contempt. They also discuss the confusion between lust and love as these relationships turn over. They are worth reading.
 

HiddenLacey

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You know, I think people stay together for more similar reasons than they part.

But I'll take you at your word if you'll agree to pre-nups that give either party very short term liabilities for maybe rent (a couple of years) and maintenance of kids.

Deal?

Pre-nup... ahhhh yes, for protecting one's money and worldly material possessions, those things that mean nothing when you're alone with people who only want you for those things:rolleyes: I could honestly care LESS about such meaningless things under normal circumstances.

I'd sign a pre-nup that said something along the lines of if we part with no children and neither of us cheats we each keep what we entered into the union with. Provisions would have to be agreed upon for children.

However, if one of us cheats the pre-nup is void, I think that's a fair and reasonable request of another adult.
 
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Drifterwood

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However, if one of us cheats the pre-nup is void.

Why? What is the big deal?

It's like saying "if you fail to live within the straightjacket, you will be punished."

Do you think it is right to buy people off like this?

And BTW, as a woman in western culture, you can divorce a man if he is unfaithful and you can divorce a man when you are unfaithful and you retain exactly the same rights. Not so for men. It's called inequality.
 

HiddenLacey

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Why? What is the big deal?

It's like saying "if you fail to live within the straightjacket, you will be punished."

Do you think it is right to buy people off like this?

And BTW, as a woman in western culture, you can divorce a man if he is unfaithful and you can divorce a man when you are unfaithful and you retain exactly the same rights. Not so for men. It's called inequality.

Because, what's a promise worth to you? What are years of your life worth? What is sharing your heart and mind really worth? There is NOTHING that can replace the feelings and years that we share with someone. Obviously the reason why I entered the union wasn't protected, so why should what he wanted to protect be protected?

To clarify, I still wouldn't want whatever was given if one of us cheated, I'd put it in the pre-nup that it would be given to charity. I could atleast take from him what charity could use. When I make a promise I keep it or I fess up.

Straightjacket? How can you possibly compare the two? If marriage is a straightjacket then why would you choose to enter it?

Personally, I believe marriage is supposed to be a promise between two (sometimes more people) that actually means something. People do change, I understand that which is why I also believe people shouldn't get married if they don't know who they are and what they want out of this life and be willing to share every part of that life with the person(s) they marry. Marriage is a vow, it's honour, it's faith and believing in someone so much that your pre-nup casts dirty shadows on your life together. If that piece of paper is what YOU need to truely trust someone, then, well I'm sorry. Faithless, loveless marriage is what many get because that's what they enter into..... some are simply hurt, it happens. All I can say about marriage, love and money is to quote,

"Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm; for love is as strong as death, its jealousy unyielding as the grave. It burns like a blazing fire, like a mighty flame. Many waters cannot quench love; rivers cannot wash it away. If one were to give all the wealth of his house for love, it would be utterly scorned."
 
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D_Fiona_Farvel

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Honestly, I think this is passe bullshit. Nice if it were true, but horse manure, no offense personally, it is the mantra of the nineties that rolled through to the noughties. But people, men and women academics, soon saw that it was just so much PC rubbish. Men and women are different, and we behave differently, in many significant areas. Trying to squeeze us into a contruct of marriage forlife has really failed and caused so much unhappiness and misery that I really do wonder where we are headed. And yes, I know some people are blissfully happy but the real stat is that 50% of marriages today will fail within 5 years.

Men used to have free reign to behave as they wished (maybe), but the tables have turned, women can often do what they want and blame men for everything wth the full backing of the law.

Before you reach for the easy misogynist tag that excuses any lack of real argument, perhaps patronisingly, I don't think many women really know themselves. This is a problem for them and men. I think a lot of women are stuck between a pre and post modern feminist world. But this is a world in which they are still allowed the easy out of blaming men rather than understanding their own actions and motivations which sadly don't fit with the easy pc mantras. This is why I like the research of women as posted above.

I know certain posters would like me to "change the record" but I genuinely would prefer a system that worked with the way we are rather than some bullshit constructs whether they be old religion or modern guff.

Try reading all of this

http://dontmarry.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/rotating.pdf

Rant over, please return to happiness. :smile:

I can't speak for the nineties, but within this period, I see many couples attempting to reframe relationships in a manner that fits with their own unique set of beliefs. If a woman takes on the responsibility of this role jointly with her partner or even leads, I find it safe to say she knows herself and what she wants, or is in the process of discovery - like any other individual (but, hey, I'm on the non-binary tip).

Relationships and gender roles are evolving. More men are SAHD, receiving custody and/or support. Fewer women are granted - or desire - support, and court systems, at least in the United States, are beginning to address abuse of the judicial process, although, the utility of these measures still stands for many communities, particularly the disadvantaged.

Sure, marriages are failing at a higher rate, but fewer people are marrying and of those who decide to make a "permanent" vow, they are also walking away from marriages with cleaner hands. Particularly as more states adopt the no-fault divorce and fewer unions produce children (particularly in cases of the so-called "starter marriage"), and I view the changes in terms of a liberalization process that is [slowly] changing attitudes about relationships and expectations.

Nothing is static.

You don't have to "change the record," but realize, not every beat is timeless.
 

Drifterwood

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People do change, I understand that which is why I also believe people shouldn't get married if they don't know who they are and what they want out of this life and be willing to share every part of that life with the person(s) they marry.

The research in the latter two articles, the first is the original research, the second an in depth analysis of it, proposes that your ideal vision of marriage is just not compatible with the sea of changes that women particularly experience and find hard to understand. People want it to work, it just doesn't and the articles present research as to why not. It is research by a woman.

This is why over half of people just don't get married now in the UK, and why half of those who do, will be divorced within five years. I find your obsession with infidelity as the only sine qua non within a no blame system really remarkable. What about abuse?

Most of my women friends on this board are divorced. The two that come to mind immediately who are not, have non monogamous relationships by agreement with their husbands.

This is what I see.
 
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Drifterwood

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Nothing is static.

Isn't this in line with what the article is saying?

I think the original was a stronger, everything is in a state of flux.

SAHDs are 2.7% of married couples with kids in the US and the figure actually reduced recently btw.

How do you balance everything changing (i.e. nothing is static) with the absolute nature of vows?

This is precisely what the article and research is saying. People want it to be one way and then get confused and angry when it isn't. It is perfectly normal for some women (argue about the numbers amongst yourselves) to stop loving and lusting for their husbands after a relatively short period of time. It leaves the husband bemused and trying to do all the wrong things to address the issue, and the woman angry and blaming the husband because people seem to have a reluctance to deal with the fact that this is perfectly natural behaviour.

I would prefer to be aware of human nature and work with it, than to try to force it into a box (straightjacket) and then get angry when it doesn't work.
 
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D_Fiona_Farvel

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Isn't this in line with what the article is saying?

I think the original was a stronger, everything is in a state of flux.

SAHDs are 2.7% of married couples with kids in the US and the figure actually reduced recently btw.

How do you balance everything changing (i.e. nothing is static) with the absolute nature of vows?
I don't, shit changes. But I'm also not married, so. :shrug:


This is precisely what the article and research is saying. People want it to be one way and then get confused and angry when it isn't. It is perfectly normal for some women (argue about the numbers amongst yourselves) to stop loving and lusting for their husbands after a relatively short period of time. It leaves the husband bemused and trying to do all the wrong things to address the issue, and the woman angry and blaming the husband because people seem to have a reluctance to deal with the fact that this is perfectly natural behaviour.
The above works both ways. However, speaking as a woman who is not confused or angry, I do not believe there's a gender difference to cheating. All this stuff about women being "hardwired" monogamists, the aggrieved party can act to change a cheater, what women do to men while cheating differs from what men do to women, or women do not know what they want - blah, blah, blah :3x, hah: - to me, pure bullshit.

Further, I found Ongaro's article not even remotely credible. The second was just as offensive and the third was equally so - I wouldn't wipe my ass with any of them.

I think you were wanting to respond to a position I never offered, including thinking you're a misogynist, or I actually care if anyone gets married. Which I do not, but, I do respect marriage and believe everyone makes their own standards of fidelity and commitment.

I would prefer to be aware of human nature and work with it, than to try to force it into a box (straightjacket) and then get angry when it doesn't work.
Do you. But, you're experience with human nature may not actually reflect that of anyone else. Although, I think MB made that point earlier. Shhsh, don't tell her i said this - but I think MB (and Ms. Laidey, ftm) know what they want.
 

ManlyBanisters

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I read all articles linked by all parties - the 1st two you linked, Drifter, are trash - the 2nd is just a blurb to sell a self help book. Are you really that naive? You are taking from those 'articles' by women what you want to take - that there are women out there who agree with you. And I don't doubt that there are. The experience describing marriage break-up in both those articles is, however, not mine, nor do I have any female friend who could honestly say that's how her marriage broke up. I can think of one male acquaintance who would say that his ex behaved that way, but I never knew her terribly well and only really spent any time with him after the relationship ended so I can't say either way what else, if anything, may have been going on.

On the other hand I can think of 2 very close female friends who, were you switches sexes in those articles, would say that perfectly describes the behaviour of their ex-partners.

Does the behaviour in the article ring completely false because I have no evidence of it? No, of course not. Does the fact that both authors paint this as typical behaviour sit badly with me? Yes. Both are trying to sell their ideas, one literally, and know that they need to appeal to an audience of hurt men who want to push their misgivings about their own behaviour off on to the other party.

Of the relationship break ups, some permanent and some temporary, I have known a lot about there has not been one where both parties were not at fault. The idea that there is this female behaviour set that exists that will destroy a marriage that does not even MENTION one half of that marriage is, to me, an idea that should be dismissed. Completely. And probably urinated upon... though that may be going a little far. I would say the same to any theory that blamed male behaviour alone for any percent of relationship break-up.

The article about Dan Savage made one simple point for me - and the point was not that men and women are the same, it was that all people should have equal rights and responsibilities within a relationship. The thing is we are all individuals (queue the Holy Grail reference...) and going into any relationship with pre-conceived ideas on how parties should or will behave dependent on their sex is, frankly, ridiculous.


What a hate-filled piece of shit that was. Seriously? You are putting that out there as a position you want people to read to understand you? Are you? Because if you are I think I need to reevaluate our friendship.

Men, I fear, will have to demand nothing less than the full reestablishment of what feminists call patriarchy&#8212;the male-headed family as the normal social unit. This may be a &#8220;radical&#8221; idea, given how far our society has gone offtrack, but it is hardly revolutionary. It is really just the radical restoration of the natural and traditional order of the human family.

Ah yes, the 'me strong, me in control' argument - a coverall for rape, abuse, war and other forms of violence. Reintroducing that to family law will benefit one member of the family and one alone, the male 'head'. I sorry you don't like the world where who actually put the most care, attention and effort in raising children has the greater say in how they are raised and not the one who can slap harder.

Baskerville doubts whether a return to father custody can &#8220;find acceptance beyond the fringe of political debate.&#8221; I think he is mistaken about this. There is no such thing as a fixed &#8220;fringe&#8221; to political debate. One of the most important forms of political activity consists precisely in moving the fringe. It took much more determination on the part of homosexuals to get us to where &#8220;gay marriage&#8221; is discussed with a straight face than it would for normal men to restore the presumption of father custody. Indeed, I suspect that men, once politically united, could dictate almost any terms they wished to women.

They did, for years, and then a little thing called women's suffrage happened. I can understand why some men would like to go back to the way things were but it isn't going to happen. There are too many intelligent men and women who realise that subjugating the 'other' (be that 'other' woman, slave, lower class, whatever) is not ever permanent. As long as there is a power group there will always be revolution waiting in the wings.

We are intelligent enough to conceive of equality, we just have to be intelligent enough to practise it.
 
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Drifterwood

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I'm sure you'll get lots of pats on the back, but I have discussed this topic with several women friends (some of them married) over the weekend and they have a completely different take to you and FLaG. Maybe it's the internet.

We have both been active posters on this site for some time. Do you remember that string of threads that came out a while ago from men bemoaning that their wives had stopped wanting to have sex with them? It was news to me, but I started asking my married male friends and found that many were in the same boat. Is it cool on the internet to be so dismissive of men and their experiences?

Michelle Langley spent ten years researching the subject. She draws her conclusions which I think I have fairly represented here and yes I think she has a point. I have certainly seen it amongst people I know IRL. And I will repeat of the older women friends I have here, I think almost all have been divorced except two who have open relationships to one degree or another with their partners.

I do not think that monogamy is in line with our evolutionary biology. I think that it is a social and religious construct that is often at odds with the former. Yes, some people can make it work, (and I hope it works for you this time round as you clearly want it to), but the stats in every western country suggest that it works for the minority of people who try it. So crucify me for trying to understand why this is.

Regarding the anger that you take exception to in the final quoted article, I have a friend who was quite active in the Fathers for Justice movement. I don't underestimate the anger that they have felt against the system. It reminds me very much of the indignation expressed by early feminists. I appreciate that these fathers experiences are not the same as your own, but that does not mean that their concerns are not justified. Equality is equality.
 
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Drifterwood

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Do you. But, you're experience with human nature may not actually reflect that of anyone else. Although, I think MB made that point earlier. Shhsh, don't tell her i said this - but I think MB (and Ms. Laidey, ftm) know what they want.

Patronise and dismiss?

I remember when men used to do that to women. :rolleyes:

We have been discussing Michelle Langley's ten years of research. I have been fascinated by human sexual behaviour for a long time. Clearly her research and my experience and interest in other people are irrelevant.
 

HiddenLacey

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The research in the latter two articles, the first is the original research, the second an in depth analysis of it, proposes that your ideal vision of marriage is just not compatible with the sea of changes that women particularly experience and find hard to understand. People want it to work, it just doesn't and the articles present research as to why not. It is research by a woman.

This is why over half of people just don't get married now in the UK, and why half of those who do, will be divorced within five years. I find your obsession with infidelity as the only sine qua non within a no blame system really remarkable. What about abuse?

Most of my women friends on this board are divorced. The two that come to mind immediately who are not, have non monogamous relationships by agreement with their husbands.

This is what I see.

The thread is about cheating, not about abuse. Let us focus on that.

The people who choose to live in non momogamous relationships that are in agreement with their spouses have obviously spoken with their partner and come to terms with what they each desire out of the relationship. That is their business and I wouldn't consider that cheating. If I were married and my partner came to me and said that he desired sex outside of our relationship, I would say ok, lets talk to a divorce lawyer. I'm just not interested in a relationship like that. No need for sneaking and cheating, he can have his cake with someone else and I'll take my pie on down the road. Life goes on without that person.

Honestly, I'm not trying to sound stubborn, but I simply do not care what anyone's research proposes. I also don't care that "It is research by a woman." Is this supposed to sway me in some manner, because a woman wrote it?

I don't care if the president or the pope wrote it. What I see is the reason why some marriages fail. I'm not arguing that they don't fail. I'm talking about cheating, which to me means looking for sex (including intercourse, touching, kissing, etc.) outside of the relationship without a partners knowledge. Once again, that is what the thread is about.
 
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Drifterwood

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Once again, that is what the thread is about.

And Michelle Langley proposes a theory from ten years of research that I find plausible. I don't think I have said that it is the answer to everything, but I think she has a point. No one has yet said anything about her conslusions other than "bullshit".

Perhaps someone could quote their own experience as being utterly at odds with her conclusions, because I have discussed this with some women over the weekend who found it very plausible in terms of their own experience with marriage.
 

HiddenLacey

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And Michelle Langley proposes a theory from ten years of research that I find plausible. I don't think I have said that it is the answer to everything, but I think she has a point. No one has yet said anything about her conslusions other than "bullshit".

Perhaps someone could quote their own experience as being utterly at odds with her conclusions, because I have discussed this with some women over the weekend who found it very plausible in terms of their own experience with marriage.

I read Michelle Langley's theory.

I'm past the age of 27, I'm not married, never been married and I've been asked more than once. I have my own theory that applies to myself...

I'm not going to get married to someone I don't want to spend the rest of my life with. If/ when I marry it means I plan in devoting and sharing my life with that person. Every part of who I am, no secrets. If it fails then it fails, but it will not be because I had a mid-life crisis and wondered if there's life out there:wink:

I don't agree with her theory.
 

HiddenLacey

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But, like me, you haven't had first hand experience of what she is talking about.

Let's just say that everyone's reasons for getting married are different. Everyone wants something different from their marriage. Similarities in the reasons for marriages ending are going to occur. There are similarities in a lot of things, just because something is similar doesn't make it the same in every instance.

I don't agree with her theory, you think it's plausible. We each have our own opinions, that's fine.
 

Drifterwood

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I don't agree with her theory, you think it's plausible. We each have our own opinions, that's fine.

I think it's plausible because when I test it by asking my women friends IRL who are over 40 like me, they say that it rings true in their and their friend's experiences.

To start to dismantle her theory, I would expect to hear some women saying, I was married for ten plus years and had two kids and at no time did I lose the lust and love for my husband that lead me to marry him in the first place. The next question then has do be, so why did it fail?

I know that there are loads of reasons why marriage fails (and why they don't fail), she is looking at just one reason and I have heard of her theory being that reason or a major contributing factor. I have seen Ongaro's point about reassessing your life at certain Bdays as well for that matter.