Leave Jesus Alone!

[B_big dirigible]

The point behind mocking the powerful is to remind the thinking population to think, instead of just accepting.

The thinking population has already taken care of that without your help, don't you think? If one has to be reminded to engage his brain, he probably doesn't qualify for membership in said thinking population. "Mocking" is wildly overrated. In every situation meant to appeal to the thinking population, a coherent argument would do a better job. The court jester has his place, but it's a minor one, like the ukelele part in a Sousa march. But a coherent argument takes effort and skill to synthesize, and that's work, so we don't see all that much of it.

Most of what we see here on political and religious (and scientific, for that matter) threads isn't "mocking" but mere ranting. Is there really any point in pretending that the chronic ranters here are actually sophisticated Socratic gadflies?

 

[luvbgdk]

Thank you Hickboy for addressing the subject that everyone wants to fight over. There are many wolves in sheeps clothing calling themselves Christians, hurting people, judging people, but I rest in the simple truth that He loves us all the same, whether we believe in Him and what He did for us or not. God bless each and every precious soul looking for solace and understanding. May you meet Him face to face and experience His grace and love. Hickboy, you are a blessing. THANK YOU!

 

[rob_just_rob]

The thinking population has already taken care of that without your help, don't you think? If one has to be reminded to engage his brain, he probably doesn't qualify for membership in said thinking population.

Perhaps I should have said "potentially thinking population". Quite a lot of people need to be reminded, sometimes.

Mocking works if there is a point behind it. People are more likely to read something that is short, to the point, and amuses them, as opposed to something that is long and not amusing. Attention spans are shrinking faster than polar bear weenies.

 

[DC_DEEP]

I really get annoyed at the attitude, sometimes.

There have been more than one who accuse everyone else of "hating christians and loving muslims" or any other religion.

Truth is, I don't love any of the religions. In most cases, I really care not at all what most people believe. My problem is when people try to take action against me for not believing. Or when they demand that I live by their religious canon. That is intolerable.

 

[Dr. Dilznick]

Thank you ,Hickboy.

So often I try to refrain from becoming involved in threads about my beliefs because I am tired of the verbal assaults that usually insue. You could not have said it better. In his lifetime here one earth Christ himself took the hypocritical status quo religion to task so I think your message is right on time.

The definitions of "faith" (belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence) and "logic" are mutually exclusive... which is why Christians probably shouldn't enter threads about their beliefs to begin with. You shouldn't be surprised if others don't respect your views or take them seriously. They have no reason to.

It is?

There are plenty of debatable things abut Him, but I hadn't heard that existence was among them. His status as a prophet, or the nature of the Trinity, or the contradictory biographical details found in the Gospels, or gross errors in the Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic translations now enshrined in the King James Bible, are certainly matters for discussion (even if not here on LPSG). But that's not quite the same as denying the carpenter's actual existence.

Here:

http://home.ca.inter.net/oblio/home.htm




[EDIT: misquote corrected]

 

[B_Stronzo]

Jesus seems all right enough by Himself. It's what those assholes who profess to follom Him do to the poor dude's reputation.


It's a bit difficult to separate the two since so many people are saying and doing so many dreadful things "in the name of JESUS!" (add all the drama of a Baptist tent revivalist's proclamation to that last parenthetical phrase)

 

[D_Herin_Ghan]

It is?
I'm not a Christian myself, and am certainly no friend of the Church, but I have found the incessant anti-Christian bigotry prevalent among some on this board - though no one actually on this thread so far - to be despicable. Leaving Him alone would be a big step towards a little toleration for His followers, even the ones who make a pig's breakfast of the whole thing.

Very well said B.D. It's all over the place here, and it was a huge reason as to why I started the Fall of Christianity thread. I think there's a double standard here in the States. An attack on Christianity is OK because it's an attack on the majority. But if you attack a different religion, you are labeled racist or bigoted. I'm not denying the fact that there area some horrible Christian human beings, but that can be said for all human beings, not just Christians, ne?

 

[Hatched69]

He hasn't done anything to you. There are people who go about doing all sorts of heinous things in His name every day. They aren't Jesus. They aren't even His representatives. They're liars and poseurs and terrorists, just like the people who fly planes into buildings and blow up the innocent at falafel stands. Don't get confused and go after the Saviour. He didn't send these idiots to commit their crimes. Go after them. Or would you rather shoot the Message and let the messenger go free?

I see all sorts of awful cartoons mocking Him every day and I'm appalled. Yeah, talk to me about free speech. Is it right for you to use your freedom of speech to mount an assault on my freedom of religion? That is NOT a rhetorical question. I suggest you go back and read it, and formulate a simple "yes" or "no" answer. It might help you to at least know your own mind about this.

Leave Jesus alone. Better yet, try to understand Him. He won't hurt you. Some of the people who pose as His followers might try, but He won't.

And may the Peace of Christ be with you.

WooHoo!
Hickboy for President!!
Well said!!

 

[B_Stronzo]

Very well said B.D. It's all over the place here, and it was a huge reason as to why I started the Fall of Christianity thread. I think there's a double standard here in the States. An attack on Christianity is OK because it's an attack on the majority. But if you attack a different religion, you are labeled racist or bigoted. I'm not denying the fact that there area some horrible Christian human beings, but that can be said for all human beings, not just Christians, ne?

Lion,

Though I understand your posturing since we've covered this ground (both you and I) on several other threads that begin to address this thing, I will say that I think that the type (or for lack of a better word "version") of Christianity espoused by many lately has many skeptical of the real intent of Christianity per se.

I know it's made me speak guardedly to anyone who pronounces his or her Christianity as a matter of course upon first meeting. How can it help but do that with what the extremists are doing?

There's a negative humanitarian agenda to how many use it.

I come from a family of Quakers and Episcopalians. Not one of them who I've witnessed has ever used that faith to marginalize or judge people. My father's own brother is an Anglican priest. He and I have spoken extensively about the abuses of Christianity so obvious in today's world of George Bush and those pseudo-Christians who put him in office this last time.

I feel the same way about how the Jews and the Muslims address key things too - so I don't think it's about Christians necessarily. It's about those literalists who appear, very much lately, to have a very loud voice in condemning (just for instance here) homos like me.

Fuck 'em. If those "Christians" are speaking for Christ (and they would say remember that they are) I say they're fair game. They don't get a special dispensation from me in the scrutiny department.

 

[B_Stronzo]

Odd aside I'm noticing:

The accolades to Hickboy's initiating thread post appear most whole-heartedly to be coming from those who list their sexual orientation as "100% straight".

Is this a coincidence or does it speak to a deeper issue of feeling threatened? :33:

 

[rob_just_rob]

An attack on Christianity is OK because it's an attack on the majority. But if you attack a different religion, you are labeled racist or bigoted.

Majorities don't need additional protection - that's the perk of being part of one.

 

[B_Stronzo]

Majorities don't need additional protection - that's the perk of being part of one.

Good answer. :wink:

 

[SpeedoGuy]

An attack on Christianity is OK because it's an attack on the majority. But if you attack a different religion, you are labeled racist or bigoted.

Agreed. Blanket attacks on Christianity as a whole are weak and intellectually lazy. The actions of individuals claiming to be Christians, however, are, and should be, fair game for criticism in a secular democracy.

I'm not denying the fact that there area some horrible Christian human beings, but that can be said for all human beings, not just Christians, ne?

I don't think Christians are necessarily any more likely to lie, cheat, steal or kill than anyone else. Christians are commanded otherwise. But I'd add that tolerance, love and forgiveness are also central tenets of Christianity. The failure of so many very vocal Christians to live up to these ideals creates fertile ground for public backlash. And rightly so. Selective observation of some core tenets, but not others, can easily breed skepticism about the faith as a whole.

As for me, I sure don't reject or disparage Jesus. I do, however, reject those who presume to speak for him.

 

[dreamer20]

... Isnt it funny that the only religion made fun of is christianity I dont remember jesus promising 40 virgins for the murder of inocent people

Whether they be Muslim, Christian or Jewish, extremists follow the dictates of their religious/political leaders just as the Hebrews did in the Old Testament. Yahweh and the Hebrews, the latter claimed to act as directed by that deity, murdered many innocents according to the Old Testament.
Persons who have instituted Islamic rule, the Papal and Spanish Inquisitions, the persecution of gays and lesbians, the oppression of women, genocide , slavery and racism have also defended their actions based on passages from the Old Testament which are considered profoundly evil by today's religious and secular standards. See:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/imm_bibl1.htm


The comment about Christianty being the only religion made fun of is not accurate of course. See this cartoon regarding the 72 virgins:

 

[Hatched69]

Jesus seems all right enough by Himself. It's what those assholes who profess to follom Him do to the poor dude's reputation.


It's a bit difficult to separate the two since so many people are saying and doing so many dreadful things "in the name of JESUS!" (add all the drama of a Baptist tent revivalist's proclamation to that last parenthetical phrase)

I can echo some of your feelings on this. While I profess to be Christian, I do notice that there are many "Christians" who set a double-standard for themselves. It is very unnerving and destructive when there are folks who sit in church on Sun, act like good little boys and girls, but during the week they are totally different people, who use their faith and the Lord's name in vain as leverage or an excuse for their behavior. I also notice how (at least in my neck of the woods) there seems to be a "clique" of folks who CLAIM to be Christians (we minister to all the people of the world, including the needy and poor, right?) who will not even SPEAK to another person if he/she feels that person is "beneath" them. And yet the Bible tells us "all men are created equal".... So, how are people SUPPOSED to perceive Christians? Snobs? Rich folk? Mr./Mrs. Goody-Two Shoes? Unfortunately, it appears that this small percentage of people are the ones who get noticed and not the "true" God-fearing Christians who genuinely attempt to make the world a better place.
On another note, it is interesting how most Christians are so passive when their faith is publicly attacked, but you say something about another religion/faith and you end up at war.....
Have Christians lost their passion, or are other religions TOO passionate?

 

[Gillette]

OMG! the cartoons!

 

[invisibleman]

I, however have serious reservations about his fan club and the level of extremity they have taken their overzealous worship and mostly in false ways ironically enough.
The fanaticism we chastise our neighbors in the Middle East for having is just as prevalent in our culture today only in a different religion and the pious leaders who share this fanatical belief are what is RUINING our nation today.
I have no problem with ANYONES choice of religion, even Satanism except when it becomes fanatical and directly affects myself and those that I love.

I agree with this. I believe that certain people do a lot in the name of monotheism (i.e. God, Jesus, Allah...et. al.). I believe that there are underlying agendas with extremism. It has to do with controlling others (sinners, saints and those in between)--power and influence.

 

[Gillette]

...most Christians are so passive when their faith is publicly attacked...

Not sure I can agree with that.

 

[B_Stronzo]

I can echo some of your feelings on this. While I profess to be Christian, I do notice that there are many "Christians" who set a double-standard for themselves. It is very unnerving and destructive when there are folks who sit in church on Sun, act like good little boys and girls, but during the week they are totally different people, who use their faith and the Lord's name in vain as leverage or an excuse for their behavior. I also notice how (at least in my neck of the woods) there seems to be a "clique" of folks who CLAIM to be Christians (we minister to all the people of the world, including the needy and poor, right?) who will not even SPEAK to another person if he/she feels that person is "beneath" them. And yet the Bible tells us "all men are created equal".... So, how are people SUPPOSED to perceive Christians? Snobs? Rich folk? Mr./Mrs. Goody-Two Shoes? Unfortunately, it appears that this small percentage of people are the ones who get noticed and not the "true" God-fearing Christians who genuinely attempt to make the world a better place.

Thanks Hatched for your perspecitve. We've experienced the phenomenon that is Christianity differently.

I don't perceive them as 'snobby' or 'rich'. I perceive most as "trailery" and generally a bit bourgeois.

On another note, it is interesting how most Christians are so passive when their faith is publicly attacked, but you say something about another religion/faith and you end up at war.....
Have Christians lost their passion, or are other religions TOO passionate?

I find the reverse of this statement to be the case. I think that Bible Belt group of "born agains" is anything but but passive these days. We must live in vastly different areas of the land you and I.

 

[jeff67]