Let's help Dubya's credibility

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ORCABOMBER: Why did that makes sense to me?

BTW, I don't recall Iraq being a threat to the US, their scud missiles didn't even hit Israel and that is literally, "the best they've got".

With genetic engineering, ironically, the Western world could easily create pathogens that could literally "wipe out" their hosts, or something equally as horrible.

The technology to even sustain a lab that creates "chemical y" is not exactly going to be too hard to find unless it's underground.

If it was for nukes, then I await the war with North Korea, China, Russia, the Uk and France.
 
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grantstephens: It is a dead issue since it didn't work for Gore. I'm sure W missed some time due to campaining or partying or whatever. Shouldn't really matter to the US, because we had no problem voting Clinton in who was a supposed draft dodger. I would rather have a campaining (drunk) almost fighter pilot on my side then some draft dodger who can't inhale. ???
 

jonb

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Actually, they didn't cover it much in 2000.

But I dedicated this little filk to the president's credibility (or lack thereof)

The Bushies had the White House
And all was going well
Then Kay did his inspections
Their careers went to

Hello, operator
Dial number nine
And if I get telemarketers
I'll kick you in the

Behind the refrigerator
Bush's case was made of glass
It broke into a million pieces
While he sat on his

Ask me no more questions
And I will tell no lies
Unlike the last two presidents
When their careers died, died, died
 
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Javierdude22: Ya know what I highly expect? That when GW Bush is defeated in november, 2008 will see my main man Jeb running for president...cant have enough of the Bush clan!
 
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Doubtless_Mouse: Jay - In respond to the comments you made I offer this; we live in a democratic republic. We by definition do not live in a democracy (we are simply to big a nation). If I read your comments correctly, you state the public should have had some of the decision making authority on whether to go to war with Iraq or not, correct? In reality you did. In Nov 2000, the public spoke and elected the president of the United States. While there was some controversy over the counting of the votes, Bush won.

In our society, we elect people to make decisions for us. At the state level, you have the ability to vote on certain laws but at the federal level, you don't have that authority. We have had 200 plus years to develop our system of government. We have changed some of the wrongs in our society in that time, but don't think anyone ever really tried to affect the ability of the president to send troops to fight. The president cannot legally declare war on another country, only congress has this ability. Now I am not sure but I think, at the time, Congress fully supported the Bush decision to send troops to Iraq. You have a voice in the election process; likewise you have a voice in the electoral process. Contrary to popular belief, it is the electoral vote that wins the election not the popular vote. We as members of this society elect representatives to be our voice. These people in turn elected Bush to be the leader of this country. Please understand, I am not saying it was right or wrong, only that you did have a voice in this matter. My personal views on the war in Afghanistan and Iraq are exactly that - my personal views.

In Nov of this year, the people will speak again. We may not like the answer that is given (meaning as individuals we may not like who wins), but please keep in mind, that the people will elect the person they want to lead this country.

As to the comment you made about your generation being called to fight in these conflicts, our military is currently a volunteer military. At the time of enlistment, they took an oath to obey all orders. They knew/know the dangers associated with military life. One of the reasons my wife is happy I am longer in the military is that she does not accept the dangers I faced when on active duty - I did. The men and women of the United States Armed Forces are there for a reason, to protect and defend the constitution of our country. While they may not have thought a war would break out during the time they served, it has always been a possibility. It is a reality that they face as members of this group. They too have the right and obligation to vote, so their voice is likewise heard. Are there problems with this system we have? Yes, do they outweigh the benefits we get by being members of this society? No. We live a grand country. We have more freedom than almost any other country. Everyday my wife wonders how our country allows public figures (elected officials) to be made fun of on TV (Saturday Night Live really confuses her), because even though Japan is a free society, they do not have the same type of freedom we do. If you feel strongly about the fact that the public does not have a direct voice in the decisions to go to war, then try to change that. It will not be easy, but it is doable.

In closing, I am not "jumping" on you. I think you have some valid points, but wanted to make sure you understood that you do have a voice in this matter. Vote. Vote. Vote. If you want to be heard you must vote. I strongly believe in our system and think it can be made better only by being vocal.

Mouse
 

jay_too

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[quote author=jay_too link=board=99;num=1076709498;start=0#6 date=02/13/04 at 19:11:00]
In a democratic republic, a discussion about a dubious military operation should have ocurred.

I would have preferred to spend $1 trillion or so infastructure, education [as you know the majority of students in science and engineering in U.S. colleges and universities are foreign], environmental protection, universal health care, etc.

The decisions leading to war in Iraq were made by an inner circle that did not get put in harm's way in the war of THEIR generation, namely Vietnam.[/quote]

doubtless..

Is the point of the post is that good citizenship is only to vote and forget civil responsiblities until the next election? I don't think so...even the founding fathers dissented from federal actions by another [example Jefferson and Adams].

Decisions involving committing troops and national resources [ya know, buckets of money] should be made judiciously and only after all other methods fail. The Powell presentation to the U.N. was ludicrous to engineering students at major universities. It was not based on a technical understanding of what the purported facilities of mass destruction would look like. Some interpreted the c--p used to justify the war as either stupidity or a mess of lies.

So I and many others exercised our first amendment right to "the freedom of speech. . .or the right to peaceably assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." And yes, four Senators got regular emails from on my concerns and pointing to weaknesses in the information.

jay
 

jonb

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Well, the Florida jury's still out. On the one hand, the butterfly ballot people were idiots.

On the other, ChoicePoint/DBT clearly did something fishy. And Bush wanted to allow illegal military ballots. Not to mention that Bush wanted to have all but those four spurious counties recounted. (According to Florida state law, they have to recount if the vote is less than 1% difference.)

Whatever the case, even the Greens don't want Nader to run this year; I'm sure Bush Sr is still cursing Ross Perot's name too.
 

jay_too

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doubtless..

Because today's soldier is a volunteer, does not make putting his/her life and limbs in harm's way any more defensible than that of a draftee in Vietnam. I believe that in neither place should we have committed soldiers.

I think that the writing is on the wall that we will have before the Congress in 2005, a bill to restore the draft/community service regardless of whoever wins in November. The strain on the military, the reserves, and the national guard is too great without additional manpower. Only because of equity, I guess that I support such a bill.

Note: My roomate and best friend got back in August from service in Afghanistan and Iraq in special operations, and he assures me that I would be the Army's worst nightmare for a soldier and ends with "Thank God, you would be too old!" So I guess I would voluteer for community service.

jay
 
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Doubtless_Mouse: Jay - the point of the first post wasn't to say that one's civic resonsiblity ends with voting. We have an obligation to stay informed and work within the confines of our system. You mentioned freedom of speech and you are right you should exercise this right. I was not saying "see you could have voted now shut up," but instead wanted to make sure this point was mentioned. I agree wholeheartedly that if you don't like the system you must work to change it. Continue to be vocal with your comments to the powers that be. One can only effect change by trying. Good Luck.