"Liberal" or "Libertarian"?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Bbucko, Oct 1, 2010.

  1. Bbucko

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    Opening my browser today, I came across a Yahoo! News/AP headline about a Dutch crackdown on squatting which has just been outlawed by authorities in Amsterdam, and, of course, an article regarding the resulting protests squatters plan to make.

    This thread, though, is not about squatting (I lived in a semi-illegal apartment in Paris, myself, though we paid rent) so much as the phrasing in the second paragraph:

    On Friday, the once-respected Dutch tradition of squatting becomes illegal. It is the latest pillar of the country's liberal institutions — such as legal prostitution and cafes that openly sell marijuana — to be abolished or curtailed as the Dutch become more conservative and rethink the boundaries of their famed tolerance.

    First of all, I really don't see the connection between squatting (which ignores/disregards the property rights of the owners of the buildings in question) and any form of liberalism that I've ever heard of: it's much more of an Anarchist thing, and Anarchism and Communism are the only political philosophies I can think of off the top of my head that don't recognize the supremacy of property rights.

    Calling it "liberal" is pretty much like saying "vermilion" when you mean "sapphire". Then the paragraph goes on to equate both legalized prostitution and the sale of marijuana with squatting, and all of them as being anti-conservative.

    Now, I understand that I read the article through a lens of understanding American politics, not Dutch, and that there are bound to be differences in nuance between words. But wouldn't the hands-off approach regarding such victimless "crimes" as legalized prostitution and the consumption of weed be seen as libertarian? How can the curtailment of individual freedom be called conservative by the American AP?

    Am I the only one to see a disconnect?
     
  2. B_Nick8

    B_Nick8 New Member

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    No, you're not. But, man, sometimes you really reach for those metaphors.
     
  3. Bbucko

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    Paht of my chahm, dahling :cool:

    I had originally written "blush" instead of "sapphire", but that just sounded too pinko :wink:
     
  4. Industrialsize

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    blush isn't blue, it's pink. Blush and Bashfull were the colors of Shelby's wedding in Steel Magnolia......(I think I may be gay for knowing that...:rolleyes:)
     
  5. B_Nick8

    B_Nick8 New Member

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    Wow, Indy. You really beat me to that punch.

    And for the record, Shelby's wedding colors? You're uber gay for knowing that.
     
    #5 B_Nick8, Oct 1, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2010
  6. Drifterwood

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    It is all about respect. I respect that you are free to do things that do not harm anyone else. I treat you like an adult, not a baby run by a Nanny State. You also must respect that you can not piss on my rights to make a living from something that I own that does not harm anyone.

    I understand squatting in property that is really not being used. It is an insult to those without a roof over their head. These things are not politically ideological issues they are simple political (real meaning) issues. Whoever wrote the article has presented the one as the other. They have an ideological agenda.
     
  7. Bbucko

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    I understand my colors, doll.

    I went with "sapphire" over "blush" to avoid any potential pinko/red analogies. Frankly, I think that American liberalism and libertarianism are entirely opposed concepts, especially at their extremist edges, much like red and blue.

    American conservatism claims to be all about the limits of government into the lives of its citizens, unless we're discussing sex or drugs (or presumably rock and roll, Ted Nugent excepted), when suddenly all the imperatives of the nanny-state become self-evidently a question of national security :rolleyes:

    That's the meat of my point, really: how can The Netherlands be accused of being a nanny-state while committed to such libertarian social policies?

    It makes my head explode :mad:

    Your point regarding squatters isn't without merit, BTW: I just didn't want to clutter up this thread with an Anarchist rant :wink:
     
  8. midlifebear

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    Just an amusing anecdote, but when I moved to Elko County, Nevada, way back in the late 80's the County Registrar asked what political party I wanted to check (at the time there was no "other" or non-partisan).

    I said I had no party affiliation.

    She then asked "Then are you a librarian?"

    We had some squatters hiding out in two collapsing buildings in the forested part of the ranch at the time. But they moved out without being ask when, that same winter, the roofs collapsed on the ancient log cabins. We now have porcupines and weasels living there. The weasels are pretty. They are auburn with butter yellow chins and stomachs and black tips on their ears and tails.
     
  9. midlifebear

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  10. Drifterwood

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    BB, live and let live works both ways. I think that there is a Republicn style movement in the Nederlands, the anti-muslim guy. As you know, there is this type of person who feels the need to sit in your bed and tell you what to do. Like your arseholes, the Nederlands is now having to deal with the wankers who have found an issue to unite their agenda. It is a shame and we must put our trust in the more silent majority.

    So yes, Liberal not libertarian without consequence.
     
    #10 Drifterwood, Oct 1, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2010
  11. Bbucko

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    DW-

    It's really funny that you use the term "silent majority"; though the context differs dramatically, they were Nixon voters of the 1960s, repulsed by the various liberation movements then gaining steam. They were that generation's equivalent of the "Angry White Man" popularized 15-20 years later.

    The Dutch equivalent of a "silent majority" is the live-and-let-live social relativists for which their country is so greatly renowned. We can only hope that they prevail over whatever version of Teabaggery and Xenophobic over-reaction seems to be percolating up from a grim spot in their national psyche.

    You're absolutely right in saying that there's some agenda in linking the crack-down on squats and any whisper of mention over Holland's libertarian pragmatism regarding both prostitution and pot. I'm just at a loss to figure what it might be, except for American-owned AP wishing to paint the country with as extreme and internally self-contradictory terms as possible.

    As to consequences: all actions come with consequences. Prohibitionist excesses such as we have here come with much greater consequences (IMO) to both individuals and society at large than the more open and relaxed norm in The Netherlands.

    That's because you know your colors too, MLDoll :wink:
     
  12. Empathizer

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    I don't even know anymore. It used to be that Libertarians were awesome Yippie types like my Dad's best pal Maury, who refused to go to faculty parties, didn't get tenure because of it (but is still one half of one of the most-respected Altruism Research teams in Social Psych), knows exactly which shrooms in Fort Tryon Park to put in his manbag, raised turtles instead of children with his wife, saw Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman speak on numerous occasions (but can't remember a single thing about the speeches. See under "shrooms"), and still has and wears the Frye Boots he wore to the 1968 Convention protest (I ended up getting myself a pair of the high black motorcycle boots so that I could "walk in his shoes" -- they stopped making the Campus Boots quite so well when teenyboppers started liking them).

    The new crop seem to be mostly Ayn Rand groupies who secretly wish that They Were Roark, never pay for copyrighted anything if it can be digitized and stolen, and are generally (physically and in every other way) just another example of the malignancy of Suburban Sprawl that tells little white Blue-staters that they are the most precious beings on the planet and that the world is divided into Your Shopping Mall and Your Ethnic, Cultural, And Countercultural Village To Rape Burn And Pillage.

    I am not immune to the Suburbanoma, having been raised, moi-meme, aux banlieux. But the idea that one is entitled to everything seems to be the bleeding edge of Libertarianism these days. It's the obnoxious spillover from Reaganomics's attitude that "if the System works it will all Trickle Down." Oh, and don't mention anything bad in apublic speech aimed at repairing what's wrong with America. Her sensibilities are too delicate. Her children no longer even know that the going-to-jail incident was, in fact, part and parcel of the Civil Disobedience experience detailed by Henry David Thoreau. Just let them have their fun. The other classes and nations will clean up their mess.

    Sorry for the rant, but I've been holding that in my Bile Bladder a while.
     
  13. slurper_la

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    fixed that for ya honey

    but I love ya more than my luggage!!! :biggrin1:
     
  14. JustAsking

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    I can understand supporting squatting on private property from both a libertarian point of view and a liberal point of view. Libertarians would simply be against government interference in any affairs including this one.

    Liberals would favor squatting as a way to help redistribute the wealth of property usage for the purpose of helping the economically disadvantaged.

    These two points of view happen to coincide sometimes, but I would not say that liberals are known for their libertarian views.
     
  15. midlifebear

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    One of the better rants I've read in quite some time. Frye boots? Yea gods! I still have a pair I bought in 1970!
     
  16. Drifterwood

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    I have absolutely no idea what Frye boots are.

    I also enjoyed the rant, and I agree Emp, since when did social justice become entitlement? It would be a good thread - To what are you entitled?
     
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