Libertarianism is a Barbarism

Upperdown

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What you just espoused as Libertarianism is more akin to Anarchy. Libertarians aren't opposed to government at all, but a more limited form of government. It is acknowledged that one must have governance to ensure liberty.
I would go further: what he espoused to Libertarianism is more akin to nonsense.

Gems that would have my libertarian friends rolling include:

"That libertarians have spun the word "liberty" into their moniker has no bearing and no relevance to any actual "liberties"."

"This is anathema to the concept of Liberty... as it allows those who own property more rights and power than those who do not."

"Both Anarchists and Libertarians have the same ignorant and idealistic notions about human nature being 'self regulating'"

I'm sorry Phil, but if this is your understanding of Libertarianism I would ask you to not speak about it in public. You are wildly misinformed, yet absolutely typical of a leftists perspective on Libertarianism.
 

Phil Ayesho

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Libertarianism prevents man from being a wolf to a man.

How?

NOT ONE THING in Libertarian philosophy empowers the individual to limit the actions of other individuals.
If the State can not enforce law, then no neighbor can.

If, as another defender of this lunatic religion said, Libertarianism" leaves you free to be your brother's keeper..." then that would imply that a group of your brothers would be left free to form a coalition of brother's keepers...

And THAT is a form of governance... because ALL democratic governance IS, is the consensus opinion of free individuals who have formed an organization for more efficient keeping of their brother's.

Like ALL conservative philosophies- their statements of their principles are the anti-thesis of their true aims... (patriot act- peacekeeper missiles- all named the opposite of what they actually are )

Libertarianism is not about leaving you free to BE your brother's keeper...
it is about leaving you free to DECLINE to be your brothers keeper.


In short- you can bask freely in the economy and infrastructure and security PROVIDED by the State, and yet Decline to contribute to the preservation of that State that has provided so well for you.
It's Stinginess, plain and pure... And the erroneous belief that great things can come out of personal stinginess.

Ron Paul and his Son get a damn good salary, with astoundingly great health benefits and an amazingly generous pension plan.... from the pockets of people who do Not get to decline to contribute.

If he actually understood the principles he claims to believe in... he would REFUSE to seek power in Government, where He would get to make decisions that other people are compelled to comply with.


But a study published today undercuts the entire premise of Libertarianism and Conservative politics in general.


The richer you are, the more likely you are to act unethically, the likelier you are to cheat, to steal, to take advantage, and to, even, steal candy from children.

It is not that unethical people are more likely to prosper... even those poor all their lives will BECOME less ethical should they win wealth thru a lottery.

And the Study shows that the poor are, in general, far more likely to be honest, to avoid cheating, to take their turn.

The lesson being, the LAST group that anyone should trust to act ethically is the 1%

aside from a few enlightened souls... they are the least likely to willing contribute to the very society that made them wealthy.
 

Phil Ayesho

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I would go further: what he espoused to Libertarianism is more akin to nonsense.

Gems that would have my libertarian friends rolling include:

"That libertarians have spun the word "liberty" into their moniker has no bearing and no relevance to any actual "liberties"."

"This is anathema to the concept of Liberty... as it allows those who own property more rights and power than those who do not."

"Both Anarchists and Libertarians have the same ignorant and idealistic notions about human nature being 'self regulating'"

I'm sorry Phil, but if this is your understanding of Libertarianism I would ask you to not speak about it in public. You are wildly misinformed, yet absolutely typical of a leftists perspective on Libertarianism.

I am not the uninformed one.

The believers in this imbecility are, like yourself.

You state that you and your buddies would all roll around laughing at my arguments....

But it is very telling that you avoid mentioning how you and your buddies would counter those arguments...

...because you have never really even given serious thought to the actual policies your "philosophy" would support, nor their effect on society.

You like the "sound" of "self reliance"... but you have never bothered to look thru history at what happened when these ideas were adopted by people's in the past.
You utterly ignore the evidence that IF Libertarian ideas could possibly work "better", then when they had been tried, they would have succeeded...
AND, PAL, LOOK AROUND YOU... point out to me all the myriad successfully Libertarian model societies that flourish in modern times...


The historical truth is clear. Libertarian ideas lead to society stratified into haves and have nots... into boom and bust rampant market manipulations and brigandine commerce.

With everyone free to NOT contribute, NOBODY does and social fabric crumbles to only those services that someone can rake in huge profits for providing.


And, frankly, the reason this nation is LESS libertarian than it was in 1900 is because the PEOPLE who had to live under than ideology had HAD IT with that shit and DEMANDED that things change.

You Offer NO counter argument, No explanation of how Libertarianism is NOT what I show it to be, because you HAVE NO counter argument and you HAVE NO explanation.

c'mon... enlighten me and everyone else reading this thread...
let's hear an analysis somewhat more in depth than bumper sticker sloganeering in defense of Libertarian philosophy?


I really don't care how many uneducated dolts laugh at me and claim I don't understand their ideology... when they can't even explain how their ideology works, or point to a successful example of their ideas in practice.

So, g'head... delve deeply into you library of misinformation and dredge up the 'factual information' that will prove me wrong...

But, better get your dates right...

Cause the history of the 20th century is the prefect proof that government REGULATION created the modern middle class, stabilized the US economy for continuous growth, and that Government taxation and intelligent re-distribution BUILT the infrastructure that GIFTED private enterprise with the ability to make the US the dominant world power.

Everything Libertarianism opposes... actually, provably worked out GREAT for the people of this country.

Even the inheritance tax.

And things have been going in the shitter for as long as ideas of "free market", smaller government, and de-regulation have been in vogue.


Seriously- governments exist because Libertarianism just can not compete.
 
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NewAgeMan

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How?

NOT ONE THING in Libertarian philosophy empowers the individual to limit the actions of other individuals.
If the State can not enforce law, then no neighbor can.

totally untrue. what about the philosophy of the non initiation of force? and i believe self ownership is the root of the philosophy. not land ownership.

if libertarianism is so dangerous, then what is the better alternative? surely not what we have now. what about peaceful anarcho-capitalism? how about a truly free society with a real free market? too idealistic? people always say that about things that have never been done before but that doesn't mean it's impossible
 
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billybones

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Land ownership is an example. It extends, as you say, from the lindividual's self-ownership. Since you understand that, then land ownership as a metaphore should also make sense.

It's that whole live and let live menatlity that extends only from the person bitching. Like when you watch an episode of hoarders and the morbidly obese woman with 60 cats and trash all over her lawn can't understand that his/her right to live as they wish actually infringes on everyone else around them. Sure, you can hoard cats and trash, but when it becomes a stinking health risk to everyone else and your garbage heap starts to cripple the property values of everyone else that happens to have the misfortune to live near you, they get louder about their rights and hands off my life crap.
 

Klingsor

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totally untrue. what about the philosophy of the non initiation of force? and i believe self ownership is the root of the philosophy. not land ownership.

if libertarianism is so dangerous, then what is the better alternative? surely not what we have now. what about peaceful anarcho-capitalism? how about a truly free society with a real free market? too idealistic? people always say that about things that have never been done before but that doesn't mean it's impossible

It *has* been done before, in the days of the robber barons, and it was horrible. You really want to go back to that?
 

Phil Ayesho

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totally untrue. what about the philosophy of the non initiation of force? and i believe self ownership is the root of the philosophy. not land ownership.

What about it? Try and explain how that works in governing people.

And you are simply incorrect about "self ownership"... That is just part of the window dressing to attain the real goal, which is the equivalency if ALL Ownership.... And the idea that the individual can not be ruled.

Libertarian policies would forbid the State from determining land use... Leaving it entirely up to the owner of the land.... But the State is nothing but the collective will of other citizens, so the purpose of this policy is to give total power to the individual to do whatever he pleases... But only if he OWNS.

Ergo, you can strip mine your land without regard to the effect that has on other's land, or on the health of those who own no land, but live downwind.

Seriously... It is every man for himself... And that is ALL libertarianism is.

It is predicated upon stupid ignorance of historical attempts at the same idea, that all fell apart.






if libertarianism is so dangerous, then what is the better alternative? surely not what we have now. what about peaceful anarcho-capitalism? how about a truly free society with a real free market? too idealistic? people always say that about things that have never been done before but that doesn't mean it's impossible

Get this thru your head... The GOP has been trying that free market crap for 30 years... What did it get us?
A "free energy market" got us ENRON, Rolling brown outs, market manipulation, and 20 billion dollars extorted from California taxpayers by a company that STILL went bankrupt.

A "free banking market" got us usurious credit rates, massive banking mergers, and rampant market manipulations of mortgage futures that shifted hinders of billions of dollars into the hands of a few hundred people, at the cost if world wide economic collapse... Banks too big to fail, who keep ALL of their profits and force the public to pay all of their losses.
Oh, and banks illegally foreclosing on homes they couldn't even prove they held the mortgage on.

A "free oil trading market" got us the manipulations that sent gas over $4 in 2007, which initiated the economic collapse, and which is right now sending the price of gas over $4:50.
And why? World oil production is UP! And US domestic production is way up, and our oil imports way down! There is no shortage of supply... So why the high prices? BECAUSE in a free market, SPECULATORS manipulate the price of oil.

And, finally, what has a "free market" in terms of deregulating Lobbying and campaign finance done for us? It has handed congress over to the highest bidder.

So, really, wrap your head around reality... There ain't no such thing as a free market, because the first thing that happens in a free market is that MONEY buys the influence to RIG the market in its favor.

And what would work better?

A blend of socialism and capitalism where government regulates commerce, advances a tax code that spurs re- investment in US industry and jobs, provides for essential services and infrastructure to enable private enterprise to be competitive on the global scale...

Y'know... The SAME Fucking government we had from 1932 thru 1980, and that made the US the most powerful and affluent nation on earth!
Without a SINGLE bubble bursting...

That government made the US the envy of the world, made US currency the gold standard for the world. It created the American dream of home ownership and created and grew the middle .

What? Ain't that good enough for you?