Libya - UN resolution

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Jason, Mar 17, 2011.

  1. Jason

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    The UN security council resolution has been passed. 10 in favour, 0 against and 5 abstentions. (China, Russia, Germany, India, Brazil). This gives a no-fly zone and "all necessary action".

    Right now Benghazi is enduring air strikes. There is talk of a possible Gaddafi attack tonight on the civilians of Benghazi. The no-fly zone has immediate legal status but will take maybe 24 hours to action - that's the guess anyway. It has taken two-weeks for the UN to get this resolution and many lives have been lost in that time.
     
  2. B_crackoff

    B_crackoff New Member

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    Sorry, but I have to believe in self determination. This is clearly a "revolution" which doesn't have well over 50% popular support.

    I was always quizzical how, with the internet & telephone networks down, so many Libyans had satellite mobile phones to send out footage. Does not compute, unless there are external hands guiding this.

    They've tried this in Iran too & it failed. I've no love for Gaddafi, but I'd rather both he, & the external manipulators who have caused a civil war, faced punishment.

    But that won't happen. What we are seeing is a sovereign nation about to be conquered. The official UN position should see the military not attacking ground troops. But does anyone believe that won't happen? ("we were fired upon" etc).

    Jason, have you read of the doctrine of "Compellence"? It's insidious, & was deployed in that Georgian/Russian spat a couple of years ago. It's not just a Bush hangover, it's globalist policy. These wars are all fought out in the media now - it's all about who's got the best PR. I just hope the Brits don't fly sorties from Malta, & leave that brave island open to retribution, though let's face it - we can't fly from a flippin' ship!
     
  3. B_nyvin

    B_nyvin New Member

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    I'd find that a bold statement considering Qadafi's general message is "support me or die" hence the mercenaries going through the streets of tripoli and shooting anyone seen.

    If your only source of support is through brute force...I'm sorry but that's not really even support at all. He's suppressing the feelings of discontent with threats of death and imprisonment, if people had a free say i'm quite confident 90% of them would like to see him go. Most of the people fighting for him are only doing so because it's a paying job they can actually get food with.
     
  4. maxcok

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    Sez who? Clear to whom? Where did you come up with that little factoid? Citation please.

    Not to mention the Qadafi loyalists are fighing for their own lives and their own survival. What sort of future do you think they'll have if the rebels prevail? And to reiterate, the loyalist forces are substantially augmented by troops of heavily armed foreign mercenaries.
     
  5. Bbucko

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    OK

    Whom are we supporting? for how long? When are ground troops necessary?
    Where is the Arab League? Where is the EU (without Germany)?
     
  6. B_crackoff

    B_crackoff New Member

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    David Cameron had a good going over on Sky, but came through it well. He's very polished - answered the questions "What if you're wrong?", "why don't we do this in Zimbabwe?", very well, though I thought he might hit the interviewer when he said "What's the difference between this & Bahrain?".

    The meaning of that is illustrated by these interesting comments by former ambassador Craig Murray.

    Craig Murray

    I wonder if Gaddafi will fight the media war on the human shields front. Long school trips to airfields, & plane spotting.
     
    #6 B_crackoff, Mar 18, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2011
  7. Industrialsize

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    The "Arab League" originally called for the UN to vote for a no-fly zone. I say let the "Arab League" go in FIRST and PAY for it. They have both the Military power and the money.
     
  8. B_crackoff

    B_crackoff New Member

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    And 4 member states actually border Libya.
     
  9. Jason

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    Gaddafi and his regime appear guilty of crimes against humanity. His language of threat against his own people is beyond defence. I think it is this that lies behind the UN resolution, not whatever percentage support the rebels.

    Five Arab nations are pledging military support, but there's not an official name list yet. Seems like Qatar and UAE with probably Egypt and Jordan - plus one other. The West is UK and France - who with Lebanon sponsored the resolution - plus USA. I think we are looking at a no-fly zone as a long term policy, even if Gaddafi recaptures Benghazi. It could certainly be months or years. There is no mandate for troops on the ground and I don't think anyone wants this.

    Germany's abstention has been interpreted by Libya as support for Gaddafi. It appears to reflect a German desire to avoid financial costs of involvement - Germany's published reasons were hardly coherent. Twitter went mad last night with tweets linking "Germany" and "shame". The reality is that the EU is deeply divided over Libya, and this puts back a long way any concept of EU leadership in the crisis, one on the door of the EU. Rather we have the UK and France acting as the sovereign nations they are. The idea of the unelected and unelectable Baroness Ashton of Up Holland, the supreme, high and most Eurocratically exalted foreign minister of the EU giving any sort of leadership is a joke.
     
  10. vince

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    The regime in Libya declared an immediate cease-fire earlier today and says it is ready to open channels of dialogue with the rebel opposition.

    I don't believe it and Al Jazeera is reporting fresh attacks in Misrata. I suspect it a ploy to buy time and to drive a wedge though the support for intervention in the West and in Arab states.
     
  11. D_Davy_Downspout

    D_Davy_Downspout Account Disabled

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    What a difference oil makes.

    Millions dead in the Congo and we don't do shit. We don't even really talk about it.
     
  12. B_nyvin

    B_nyvin New Member

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    I really get the feeling that the blunt truth is a lot of big wigs in the world just flat out don't like qadafi.
     
  13. Bbucko

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    Or Burma or Rwanda or...

    The problem here is that any military support shown to the rebels (whoever they are, actually) will be seen as illegitimate among the most extreme of Islamist factions, who'll see such such support as yet again so much neo-colonialism (ie: Western meddling in Islamic affairs).

    This is a big fund raiser in/regarding Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq on what's known as "the Arab street" (even when the parties involved aren't technically Arab). The petroleum interests only stir the pot further.

    Bahrain has brutally suppressed their protesters (with the help of the Saudis among others) and nary a peep is heard. The fact that Allied forces will use Italian (former Imperialist power in Libya) military installations from which to launch their attacks will surely only inflame those who wish to demonize us.

    When oh when will an alternative to petroleum be found? How many more innocents must we claim in our insatiable thirst for that nasty, pollutive shit before we find an alternative?

    This is not Tunisia or Egypt (though it may well have started out that way) distinctly because of the oil. The dice do not all fall the same way; we are pitched head-on to yet another occupation of yet another Moslem country.

    This does not sit well in my gut. If the Arab League wants to begin policing itself I say let it: between the Egyptians and the Saudis they have bought more than enough weaponry to make a "No Fly Zone" possible. Let them police it themselves. EuroAmerican influence/manpower will do nothing to bolster the insurgents in the minds of the Islamic community; in fact, it will do much of the contrary.

    I'll gladly eat all these words if there isn't some "contingency (Western, primarily American) force" on the ground in Libya, shedding lives and treasure in three years' time on Libyan soil.
     
  14. Joll

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    I do think it's the right thing to do - although I'm wary after the Iraq debacle.

    It was obviously common sense to wait for the UN resolution and get a wide coalition (UK, Denmark, Spain, France, Italy, UAE, Jordan, Qatar, etc...). To go it alone would have been foolish politically and in terms of resources. Getting abstentions from Russia, China and Germany is a pretty remarkable achievement, too.

    But...with most of the Arab world in favour of a no-fly zone, it would have been remiss not to do something to help the Libyan people.
     
  15. TomCat84

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    Absolutely NO American lives/dollars for another war. NONE. ZIP. I am fucking disgusted right now. We have the money to send young men and women to die in oil rich countries, but we can't afford to raise taxes on the rich a couple of percentage points? We are in a perpetual state of war here. It will NEVER end, I fear, save for the American peasants marching on DC with pitchforks in hand :mad:
     
  16. TomCat84

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    Let the Arabs pay for it and maintain it.
     
  17. Industrialsize

    Staff Member Moderator Gold Member

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    Then why is the world ignoring the slaughters going on in the Ivory Coast??? Could it be that it is a small African country with no oil?

    http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/18/ivory.coast.violence/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_world
     
    #17 Industrialsize, Mar 19, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2011
  18. houtx48

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    And yet you whine over 4.00 dollar a gallon gasoline.............wake up
     
  19. Joll

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    But will they? And do we stand back and leave the Libyans to their fate if no-one helps?
    I agree, some finance from the Arab League should be offered, but maybe it will since several Arab States are involved (Qatar, UAE, Jordan, Lebanon...)?

    I personally think the EU should stump up. UK/France/Denmark/Spain/Sweden are all involved, with support from Italy, so it would be nice for the EU itself to share some of the financial burden, with us acting on their behalf. Germany wouldn't have it tho... Mebbe they're more interested in propping up the Euro, and following their own interests?

    Or is it because it's more practical to intervene in Libya, especially since they (and the Arab League) have requested assistance. It's also taken in context of the Arab Spring that's been taking place?

    I've heard Zimbabwe mentioned too - but it would be more difficult (impossible?) there, since many African nations still give their support to Mugabe. Not sure about Ivory Coast, altho we've intervened in other places, such as Sierra Leone (dunno what their oil situation is?).

    Oil's a factor in all sorts of mismanaged places (Nigeria, etc), but at this point I'd think Libya more urgent, since they pose the greater threat to the wider world if allowed to evolve into a rogue state. Also, we're actually in a position of being able to help, with fairly widespread support.

    Who? It's the equivalent of about $9 per gallon here. :wink:
     
    #19 Joll, Mar 19, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 19, 2011
  20. Joll

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    U'd look cute with a pitchfork, btw. ;)
     
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