Libya - UN resolution

D_Gunther Snotpole

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Which Journalists,from CNN,BBC or maybe from Al.Jazeera,other African,Asian or East-Europe TV-stations,(newspapers).

A great range of media sources.
You have to remember that even the Arab League supported imposition of the no-fly zone.
Opposition to Gadafi is not a mere Western confusion.

True,I`m not visiting Libya last 12 months,but I`m in contact with people Who working there.They say that all is Politicaly-constructed,Ghadafi was Americas enemy-first-class,so they find a way to remove him.

The United States was playing footsie with Gadafi recently.
No Western move against Gadafi was made until the arrival of the Arab Spring.
In Tunisia and Egypt, dictators fell.
The same impulse towards self-determination spread to Libya, a country far more repressed than either Tunisia or Egypt.
Only when Gadafi began using his army against relatively defenseless protestors was there any serious impulse on the part of Western nations to begin a military operation.
You may be an Arab and therefore, in principle, better informed that I am about all this ... but I can't recognize the situation as I understand it in your descriptions.

Just think,why are only America and few west-Europe countries in this,what is with others.Libya is 2-nd country with Oil.
My Friend,one recomendation,when you watch TV-s And want to belive,.then watch all tv-s. I mean tv-s of booth sides,and then take compromis.

Why have so many Libyan ambassadors taken positions sympathetic to the rebels?
Why are so many Arab commentators ... many of them not usually sympathetic to the United States ... saying it's really time that Gadafi goes?
If Gadafi is so well loved, why has he had to deprive the Libyan people of so many political rights? Had to use force and a strong police network against his own people, over many decades?

I repeat: I do not know the relevance of oil in this situation. It is in the interest of America and other Western nations to have Libyan oil enter the international market to keep supplies plentiful. There was never any threat to the continuation of Libyan supply ... so why do you think oil is a factor here?

Libya is not even in the top dozen oil producers.
It may rank higher as an exporter, but it is nowhere near second place.
If you believe otherwise, please find a citation.

I think you are sincere, hifzija, but I have real doubts about your version of what's going on in Libya.

EDIT: I just checked on Libya's oil reserves, which might place it higher than its production or export level among other oil-producing nations. It appears to be in ninth place.
 
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B_crackoff

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According to the CIA World Factbook, Libya's literacy rates are the highest in North Africa, it was making large strides in privatisation, moving toward a mixed market economy, practically everyone has a phone, & has incredibly low levels of debt.

Oil isn't the only reason for invasion. The western world's financial system works on the perpetual extension of debt. In the 80s Libya's GDP/capita was higher than Italy's. A massive extension of credit helped many countries pull far away from Libya in this respect.

However, much of this wealth is illusory - tied up in land & building assets, which are prone to crash, though the "out of thin air" debt remains to be paid, & its interest serviced.

With most of the west well past its maturity in its ability to create new assets on which to secure new loans - the obvious choice for international financiers is to repeat their debt enslavement programme onto the underdeveloped world.

Therefore, conquest, either politically or socially of those countries acceptance of the fiat system, is paramount to banking's expansion.

To this end -WE are paying for all kinds of aid programmes, let alone military actions, to pacify, compel or persuade the inhabitants of these countries to accept this future.

Ultimately, the West will be a dried up pea, unable to compete with the lower cost nations for decades, whilst swimming in a sea of debt, until those newer nations fall victim to the exact same deception.

This is as much the reason for intervention in Libya as anywhere else - though of course, the more military actions you have, the more you need to borrow to pay for your military expenditure.
 

Jason

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The CIA factbook needs careful reading. Certainly Libya is a rich nation as it sets out - but with a very poor population, as it also sets out. The Libyan people are needlessly poor, seemingly because of their government. They should have a material quality of life better than most nations on earth.

In addition to needless poverty in Libya we have human rights abuses. The language used by Gaddafi towards Benghazi on the evening when the UN Security Council passed its resolution was IMO beyond any possible defence. By his own words - not by anything the world media has said - he has stepped outside of the moral law. In terms of international law we think of this as a breach of human rights. In religious terms - in the terms of any of the Abrahamic faiths - by his words he seems to break God's law.
 
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hifzija

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Arab countrys support "No-fly" zone,It`s tru,but no one military action,Mostly Europena country`s support No.fly zone,but only two of them military action.
Sorry Folks,I`m not so good with politics,My opinion is based on actual events,on the stories from Libyan people,European people who working in Libya.
Industrialsize, check your numbers with numbers of pre-Ghadafi period and you vill se what i`m talking.
At this time,facts are...
In Libya there are no homeless people (no one).
They no pay for School,education..etc.
They no pay for health.
Here in Europe is totaly oposite.
 

B_VinylBoy

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Arab countrys support "No-fly" zone,It`s tru,but no one military action,Mostly Europena country`s support No.fly zone,but only two of them military action.
Sorry Folks,I`m not so good with politics,My opinion is based on actual events,on the stories from Libyan people,European people who working in Libya.
Industrialsize, check your numbers with numbers of pre-Ghadafi period and you vill se what i`m talking.
At this time,facts are...
In Libya there are no homeless people (no one).
They no pay for School,education..etc.
They no pay for health.
Here in Europe is totaly oposite.

Was this a typo or do you think anyone is going to believe this obvious falsehood?
 

B_VinylBoy

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Apparently, some people have no idea how to earn credibility in a debate.

Bbucko,from Libyan people.
I don`t need any statistic,my statistic are people that living there.

So do you consider ownership of a tent or a piece of cloth over a tree branch a home? That doesn't count as being homeless (whether it be forced or voluntary)?

BTW, don't think for a second that anyone here will give you an ounce of credit if you can't produce some solid statistics to back your claims. Saying that you know people that live in Libya doesn't help you one bit. There isn't a single country on Earth that doesn't have a problem with homelessness, especially in ones where the government has been proven to be thoroughly corrupt.
 

B_crackoff

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In addition to needless poverty in Libya we have human rights abuses.

The poverty level is about average for the world, & it's twice as bad in the Gaza strip, - should we invade there? After all they are a democracy - but hang on, they elected Hamas - hmm, & those Lebanese elected Hezbollah!

The language used by Gaddafi towards Benghazi on the evening when the UN Security Council passed its resolution was IMO beyond any possible defence. By his own words - not by anything the world media has said - he has stepped outside of the moral law. In terms of international law we think of this as a breach of human rights.

Morality? Time to sit around a table & break out a nice red & discuss. May I suggest Campaneo Seleccion - Tempranillo Merlot 2009 - cheap enough to go through a few bottles too!

The West's intervention is all just an extension of the Bush Doctrine. However, the UN Charter recognizes that any sovereign nation has a right to defend itself against an insurrection. The rebels are armed, have tanks & aircraft, & have taken over cities - regardless of the rights or wrongs of the cause. Legally, Gadaffi is in the clear on this score.

I repeat, that the "collateral damage" we caused in an illegal invasion of Iraq, was up to a million casualties! We have no moral high ground whatsoever, & have claimed genocide & warcrimes in the recent past, which have proved to be unfounded.

The Bush Doctrine has not aimed to support genuine democratic regimes ...but rather US-friendly regimes installed by diplomats acting on behalf of the United States, and intended only to seem democratic to U.S. voters

The election of Karzai has been described as the result of manipulation on the parts of the U.S. government ...unpopular (but U.S.-friendly) warlords achieving "legitimating" positions under U.S. supervision of the elections...commentators interpreted voter turnout figures as evidence of "large-scale fraud".

Others have written, "It remains to be seen if U.S. policy makers will ever allow anything approaching democracy to break out in Afghanistan and interfere with their plans."[90]

Bush Doctrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for Gadaffi's rhetoric - it is typical of any.

He could easily just quote Churchill!

Never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never, never--in nothing, great or small, large or petty--never give in, except to convictions of honor and good sense. Never yield to force. Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

what is our policy? I will say: It is to wage war, by sea, land and air, with all our might and with all the strength that God can give us; to wage war against a monstrous tyranny, never surpassed in the dark and lamentable catalogue of human crime. That is our policy. You ask, what is our aim? I can answer in one word: victory; victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory, however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival.

See!:cool: Does it sound like Churchill cared about the human cost whatsoever? He even waxed lyrical about never negotiating with, & annihilating Nazis, & how great Joe Stalin was too.

We're all manipulated to hate - but another country's business should be no concern of ours where it does not intimately affect our own security.

10 years ago, there may have been a case for a casus belli, but not now.
 

Jason

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Gaddafi has promised retribution on his own people. He is attacking his own people. Libyan blood is being shed by Gaddafi to benefit the Gaddafi family and tribe.

The UN tonight think that there are "hundreds of thousands" of migrants displaced and fleeing the Gaddafi terror. Homeless Libyans, but also Libyans in fear of their lives.

The comparison between Gaddafi and Churchill is both wrong and gratuitously offensive. Churchill certainly used inflamatory language - the so-called "bulldog roar" - and he certainly supported war against the enemy. He did not torture or murder anyone who disagreed with him, he did not create hundreds of thousands of migrants fleeing the UK, and in 1945 he was voted out in an election.
 

maxcok

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Which Journalists,from CNN,BBC or maybe from Al.Jazeera,other African,Asian or East-Europe TV-stations,(newspapers).
True,I`m not visiting Libya last 12 months,but I`m in contact with people Who working there.They say that all is Politicaly-constructed,Ghadafi was Americas enemy-first-class,so they find a way to remove him.
Just think,why are only America and few west-Europe countries in this,what is with others.Libya is 2-nd country with Oil.
My Friend,one recomendation,when you watch TV-s And want to belive,.then watch all tv-s. I mean tv-s of booth sides,and then take compromis.
* wondering if hifzija is a Gadhafi loyalist *

* wondering if hifzija prefers the unadulterated truth on Gadhafi's state run media *

* wondering if hifzija could possibly be a propagandist for the delusional dictator and texting from Libya *
 
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D_Gunther Snotpole

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What nomadic tribes,what tents,You bro` need to take some encyclopaedias and read something new.
Aren't there around half a million largely nomadic Tiareg people in Libya?

For people who want statistics. BDP in Libya is bigger then in many other worlds.
It has the highest per capita GDP in Africa.
But that doesn't mean that the average Libyan has significant access to that wealth.
 
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B_VinylBoy

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What nomadic tribes,what tents,You bro` need to take some encyclopaedias and read something new.

Don't worry about where I get my information. But I can tell you, as someone who works with several people in the Middle East and has also visited Jordan and Israel within the last few years, you're not providing a single thing to this thread that is remotely credible. As for the homelessness issue in Libya? This report from Amnesty International tells us more than you ever could. No TV or encyclopedia necessary.

That is how it's done around here. You come up with a claim and you find sources to back them. Period. Nobody here is going to just blindly believe you.

For people who want statistics. BDP in Libya is bigger then in many other worlds.

BDP? I had no idea KRS-ONE and Boogie Down Productions was running things in the Middle East.
Regardless, this distorted stat you just produced has already been placed into its proper perspective by Hhuck. And it's other "countries", not "worlds". That is, unless you know what our alien friends are doing in Venus. :rolleyes:
 
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B_crackoff

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Gaddafi has promised retribution on his own people. He is attacking his own people. Libyan blood is being shed by Gaddafi to benefit the Gaddafi family and tribe.

The UN tonight think that there are "hundreds of thousands" of migrants displaced and fleeing the Gaddafi terror. Homeless Libyans, but also Libyans in fear of their lives.

The comparison between Gaddafi and Churchill is both wrong and gratuitously offensive. Churchill certainly used inflamatory language - the so-called "bulldog roar" - and he certainly supported war against the enemy. He did not torture or murder anyone who disagreed with him, he did not create hundreds of thousands of migrants fleeing the UK, and in 1945 he was voted out in an election.

Well that's just not true. The Churchill authorised carpet bombing of the non military target Dresden, at that time flooded with "displaced" hundreds of thousands of refugees led to this quote...

'... the long suppressed story of the worst massacre in the history of the world. The devastation of Dresden in February, 1945, was one of those crimes against humanity whose authors would have been arraigned at Nuremberg if that court had not been perverted. Rt. Hon. Richard. H.S. Crossman, MP, Labour Government Minister.
Let alone the bombing of Hamburg

So, other than the bombing of women & children, his advice to hold no post-war tribunal, & just shoot the remaining Nazis, what about British torture...

The secrets of the London Cage | UK news | The Guardian

What Was Churchill's Torture Policy? - Political Punch

Possibly you've never heard of the Black & Tans - a bunch of bastards brutalizing - at that time - UK citizens. Churchill was the one that sent them to Ireland!

I don't blame him - it's war, & that's what the Libyan regime is facing. I think the rage against Gadaffi has no moral basis for the West other than intense dislike. We'd all be glad to see him go - but the Libyans have to do it themselves.
 
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