Life after Pinochet

B_kewlhandle

1st Like
Joined
Dec 4, 2006
Posts
83
Media
1
Likes
1
Points
151
Location
FL
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
Wow, a real live fascist among us. What a creepy post. Amazing what horrors people can rationalize under banners like "at least it was better than communism :smile:."
The left tries to stiffle debate by calling anyone who disagrees with them a "fascist." Of course, that's because they don't actually have real arguments. In fact, the Left isn't very progressive, rather it is regressive in the way they always try to discredit by insults anyone who does not agreee with their orthodoxy. You would think that anyone calling himself a "moderator" would have more sense than that.
 

B_kewlhandle

1st Like
Joined
Dec 4, 2006
Posts
83
Media
1
Likes
1
Points
151
Location
FL
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
Gee Chuck, I don't see people banging down the doors to get into Cuba and their decrepid health system. I wonder why so many Mexicans and other Latin Americans are paying thousands of dollars to coyotes and risking their lives crossing the dessert to get into the US but not Cuba. Maybe you should put your Lefty politics aside and examine the facts. So when are you moving to Cuba to partake of their alleged health paradise?

And Cuba still has a better helath system than the good old USA. LOL.

I'm guessing Kewl is a fan of these guys

Welcome to the Project for the New American Century
 

B_kewlhandle

1st Like
Joined
Dec 4, 2006
Posts
83
Media
1
Likes
1
Points
151
Location
FL
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
You are talking about the whole of Latin Amercia, which has a billion people and is spread over two continens. My analysis was about Chile, not the whole of Latin America. You obviously misread. I don't think it's relevant to blame Pinochet for all the problems of Latin America since he did not rule all of Latin America, just Chile. And Chile is today the most stable and prosperous democracy in Latin America thanks to him.

Excellent analysis but you too easily dismiss that the underlying faults in Latin America continue to fester. Why? Because Pinochet and his kind were/are constitutionally incapable of addressing them, its about their greed, they are in fact lesser men than our founding fathers. Latin America doesn't have nor ever has had the ruling classes that realized that the public good leads to their own (the elites) betterment. This has led recently to the election of more and more socialist governments that could go 'Communist' despite the abject failure of the system. So Pinochet has cured nothing he has merely delayed serious conflicts.

I think there is an economist with some real answers though he has his critics Hernando de Soto (not the Conquistador) from Peru. Of course your justification for killing people whatever the motivation has undoubtedly landed Pinochet in hell, whatever that is, and he deserves it.

Killing in combat is morally different than kidnapping and murdering a person based on the tortured confession of another. Kind of sounds like our nation's current view on the utility of torture.
 

B_spiker067

Experimental Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
Posts
2,163
Media
0
Likes
3
Points
183
You are talking about the whole of Latin Amercia, which has a billion people and is spread over two continens. My analysis was about Chile, not the whole of Latin America. You obviously misread. I don't think it's relevant to blame Pinochet for all the problems of Latin America since he did not rule all of Latin America, just Chile. And Chile is today the most stable and prosperous democracy in Latin America thanks to him.


You evidently missed the Chilean's post about how Chile is now in a backwards slide, according to him at least. He says the socialists are taking over. You ever been to latin America? Have family in latin America? Do you speak spanish? Do you read Chilean newspapers on an at least weekly basis?

I don't read internet papers from Chile but the rest does apply to me. I just want to know what your knowledge is based on. It seems you are more interested in being right than in wanting to know the truth as best you can.

BTW, I don't think it is a billion people otherwise the mesmerized asses in Washington would have been kowtowing to them rather than the Chinese.

P.S. No comment on the economist link I put up for you?
 

Matthew

Legendary Member
Gold
Platinum Gold
Joined
Aug 27, 2005
Posts
7,291
Media
0
Likes
1,503
Points
583
Sexuality
99% Gay, 1% Straight
Gender
Male
The left tries to stiffle debate by calling anyone who disagrees with them a "fascist." Of course, that's because they don't actually have real arguments. In fact, the Left isn't very progressive, rather it is regressive in the way they always try to discredit by insults anyone who does not agreee with their orthodoxy. You would think that anyone calling himself a "moderator" would have more sense than that.

Ha ha, no one's trying to stifle debate, sunshine. Has anyone prevented you from posting? Guess what - I'm just as free to post my opinion back. In fact, since you brought up moderators, you might want to check out the Terms of Service of this site you just joined which says that moderators are members who are free to express themselves like everyone else. Is that a problem for you? Are you trying to stifle debate?

When I said "fascist" I wasn't just calling you names. I was talking about politics, about the fact that Pinochet was in fact a fascist; his brutal military control of the state in the service of the wealthy and the US is the epitome of fascism. There are ample "real arguments" against Pinochet, this thread alone has plenty. But in fact, you've already made up your mind and no selection of facts or other arguments could change your mind.

History's condemnation of Pinochet is absolute; it's only a small group of ideologues worldwide, in addition to his political base of Chilean military and elites, who can hold up his flag with pride today. Some may have lined up at his funeral, but others were drinking champagne in the parks in Santiago. Bottom line: when the best thing you can say in defense of your guy is that he wasn't quantitatively as brutal as history's worst tyrants, you might as well deal with the fact that you're on shaky ground.
 

Amygirl

Cherished Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2006
Posts
238
Media
0
Likes
358
Points
248
Location
Home of the Melbourne Cup and the best coffee
Sexuality
60% Straight, 40% Gay
Gender
Female
The left tries to stiffle debate by calling anyone who disagrees with them a "fascist." Of course, that's because they don't actually have real arguments. In fact, the Left isn't very progressive, rather it is regressive in the way they always try to discredit by insults anyone who does not agreee with their orthodoxy. You would think that anyone calling himself a "moderator" would have more sense than that.

And the right tries to stifle debate by calling anyone who tries to question them a "communist" and then sets up a Senate/Parliamentary inquiry into their background.

Oops, I forgot. I'm not meant to comment on political things. Ive already been told today that it is men's business.:mad:
 

TheSeiF

Just Browsing
Joined
Oct 6, 2006
Posts
22
Media
0
Likes
0
Points
146
Location
Desert of Destruction
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
You evidently missed the Chilean's post about how Chile is now in a backwards slide, according to him at least. He says the socialists are taking over.

Thx to media manipulation by left wing. I really hope the actual president REALLY messes things up so people chose rightwing in 2009

Today i read a really interesting letter in the newspaper (El Mercurio, the biggest and best newspaper in Chile), it was from an exiles Cuban living in Spain. He says that the world doesnt really apresiate what Pinochet did, and that a true dictatorship is hell in comparison to Pinochet´s, that comparing to Castro´s, is heaven. Tomorow ill search and translate it.
 

B_spiker067

Experimental Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
Posts
2,163
Media
0
Likes
3
Points
183
Thx to media manipulation by left wing. I really hope the actual president REALLY messes things up so people chose rightwing in 2009

Today i read a really interesting letter in the newspaper (El Mercurio, the biggest and best newspaper in Chile), it was from an exiles Cuban living in Spain. He says that the world doesnt really apresiate what Pinochet did, and that a true dictatorship is hell in comparison to Pinochet´s, that comparing to Castro´s, is heaven. Tomorow ill search and translate it.

Cool, send me the original link in Spanish if you want. Thanks.:biggrin1:
 

B_big dirigible

Experimental Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Posts
2,672
Media
0
Likes
12
Points
183
Sexuality
No Response
I'm betting that per capita he was right up there with Stalin and Mao!

Let me guess. Not much of a serious student of either, eh?

In terms of either socio-economic progress or in piles of dead bodies, the comparison is specious. Left-wingers have always been better destroyers than even the most malevolent right-wingers. Simple fact. And hence the postwar communist problem. The international fascist conspiracy - and there was one - was destroyed in 1945. That doesn't mean that there weren't any fascist governments left, it means there weren't enough powerful ones working together to be a menace to civilization. The international communist conspiracy - and there was one of those, too, even if it didn't work out the way Trotsky planned - was not destroyed in 1945 (though Trotsky was, in 1940, with Joe's help). In fact it was then approaching its peak. It therefore remained as a menace. From elementary logic it then follows that communist governments were a bigger problem for their subjects and their neighbors than fascist governments. Not everyone believed that, especially after the communist front started to show cracks with the Soviet-Chinese schism, and even more after Khrushchev's (I just love spelling that name in Cyrillic) denunciation of Stalin. That trend was reversed by the Cambodian disaster. Though to some off on Planet Bananas, none of it ever happened.

Not that anybody nowadays has the slightest idea what any of these words mean. I was out in the street once with a high school kid and her mom - the poor girl I was doing at the time (the mom, not the kid) - and we found a Mercury dime, the one with the fasces on the back. I told the kid what it was, what it meant, its Roman origins, why it was the Italian Fascist party symbol, and why it was a symbol on display in the House of Representatives, as well as on a dime. Turns out his mother - a college professor, but pretty smart despite that - had never heard of any of that stuff. I might as well make it all up, nobody would know.
 

B_spiker067

Experimental Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
Posts
2,163
Media
0
Likes
3
Points
183
I might as well make it all up, nobody would know.

Kiss off BD :)

I'd say Viet-Nam also exhausted communist intentions of a domino plan in Asia.

But you have got to realize that in order to combat a greater evil America indulged in evil. The fruits off that evil are now coming back at us as much lesser problems but this time we have to respond with an open hand (no big stick) and 'good'.
 

B_kewlhandle

1st Like
Joined
Dec 4, 2006
Posts
83
Media
1
Likes
1
Points
151
Location
FL
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
That's Mr. Sunshine to you. You obviously don't know the difference between censorship and stifling debate. If you as moderator prevent me from posting my opinion that’s censorship but I didn’t accuse you of that. However, when you call someone a fascist just because they express an educated opinion, then you are trying to stifle debate. You obviously don’t know what fascism is. It’s just one of those knee-jerk phrases that you obviously picked up from leftist ideologues who throw it out at anyone who dares correct their propaganda with historical facts and figures.


“Some may have lined up at his funeral, but others were drinking champagne in the parks in Santiago.” Well, at least they have champagne to drink thanks to the economic prosperity that Pinochet left when he voluntarily left office. Go to Cuba and see if the people have champagne to drink there or the freedom to celebrate Castro's terminal illness or the dynastic succession of his brother. The rest of your post is just meaningless rants and foot stomping that don’t merit a reply.


Ha ha, no one's trying to stifle debate, sunshine. Has anyone prevented you from posting? Guess what - I'm just as free to post my opinion back. In fact, since you brought up moderators, you might want to check out the Terms of Service of this site you just joined which says that moderators are members who are free to express themselves like everyone else. Is that a problem for you? Are you trying to stifle debate?

When I said "fascist" I wasn't just calling you names. I was talking about politics, about the fact that Pinochet was in fact a fascist; his brutal military control of the state in the service of the wealthy and the US is the epitome of fascism. There are ample "real arguments" against Pinochet, this thread alone has plenty. But in fact, you've already made up your mind and no selection of facts or other arguments could change your mind.

History's condemnation of Pinochet is absolute; it's only a small group of ideologues worldwide, in addition to his political base of Chilean military and elites, who can hold up his flag with pride today. Some may have lined up at his funeral, but others were drinking champagne in the parks in Santiago. Bottom line: when the best thing you can say in defense of your guy is that he wasn't quantitatively as brutal as history's worst tyrants, you might as well deal with the fact that you're on shaky ground.
 

dong20

Sexy Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Posts
6,058
Media
0
Likes
28
Points
183
Location
The grey country
Sexuality
No Response
Thx to media manipulation by left wing. I really hope the actual president REALLY messes things up so people chose rightwing in 2009

Can you not see the irony in your very statement? You are now free to criticise your government without fear of retribution or worse. Yet with that same petulant whining breath you are advocating a return to right wing extremism which would as history has shown would preclude or restrict those very freedoms you now take for granted.

Instead of living in some mythical rose tinted image of your hero Pinochet and his ilk and how the saved the word from Communism why don't you grow up and look around the world. The evidence of ideological and egotististical extremism (left and right) in politics is a fundemental wrong is clear to see. Or are a potential perpetrator, in which case come clean.

A teenager in a democracy oenly approving of and even advocating a return fascism is so laughably surreal. Ask yourself, what would have been a Pinochet era response to dissent, docking your allowance maybe?
 

dong20

Sexy Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Posts
6,058
Media
0
Likes
28
Points
183
Location
The grey country
Sexuality
No Response
Augusto Pinochet saved Chile from the certain fate of a communist dictartoship similar to Cuba's, which was the model that Salvador Allende was following. The Left makes a great deal of Allende being democratically elected, but they forget that Adolph Hitler was also democratically elected. It's what happens after you get elected that determines your democratic credentials not the way you come to power.

On that balance, Allende was a dictator taking Chile down the Cuban communist totalitarian model. Fidel Castro himself went to Chile and stayed there for a month after Allende's election to instruct him in the techniques of communist repression. He left thousands of "advisors" behind when he left.

I don't think the ideology of Allende is in dispute though what may have happened is of course by definition hypothetical. It's also irrelevent in the context of what Pinochet did or didn't do, saying he was the lesser of two evils is not an argument or an excuse for his actions.

Pinochet willingly gave up power and turned Chile into a democracy and made way for an elected government after he stabilized the country and the economy. Today, Chile has a gross domestic product of $11,596 per capita, that's 4 times as much as Cuba, which has a gross domestic per capita income of only $3,441. (http://www.mrdowling.com/800nations.html). Pinochet was in power 17 years, Castro has been in power nearly 50.

Well, yes technically, but only because it was mandated by the constitution and he was voted out. He didn't just wake up one day and announce that for the good of Chile he would step down. Again the comparison to cuba. Well in the economic arena Germany did rather well out of Hitler in the 1930's are you suggesting he was just misunderstood and was actually a nice chap?

I think that all this is merely a craven attempt to deflect from the realities of almost two decades of political repression by using economic arguments. Thre reason is clear, that's all you have because that's all there is, and even those are tenuous claims.

The first 10 years was an almost total economic disaster, the boom of the mid to late 80s was worldwide, the Junta largely rode it's coat tails and gambled on this fooling the people into voting Pinochet in for another eight years. The gamble didn't pay off. Does this very simple fact; that despite (in your view) that such glorious economic prosperity was still not enough to buy off 56% of Chileans? He had their blood on his hands. Can you not see that?

Much is made by the Left about the $3,000 people that died during those 17 years, which comes to 176 people per year. And these were leftists fighting the government with every trick in the communist arsenal to get back the power they lost. Yes, sometimes you have to crack some eggs to make an omelette. Compare this to the millions who died of famine in N. Korea, the tens of thousands executed by Castro and two million Cubans--out of a population of 10 million--that had to escape the island. The list of atrocities by communist regimes like Allende's is too long for this space. Three-thousand people was tea time for Pol Pot and Stalin. And for all those deaths the communists had nothing to show for it, they left their countries more miserable than when they took power.

Such a fascile statement barely merits a response. Yes, as has been said in the context of Lefties Stalin and Pol Pot. Let's not forget Hitler who is notably absent in your league table of mass killers, presumably as a fellow right winger? Pinochet was little league, I said that already. Yes I know you mentioned Hitler in another context.

This isn't a critical analysis of ideology which is what you're trying to make it (Fasicsm v Communism), they're both as bad as each other, this is about what Pinochet did or didn't do, not the ideology behind his actions.

"Yes, sometimes you have to crack some eggs to make an omelette.". Very astute. The thing about breaking eggs; it's irreversible.

The international Left will never forgive Pinochet for snatching Chile from their claws, but in the final analisys, Pinochet accomplished everything he set out to do and he died with his family at his side in the best military hospital in Chile at the age of 91. Sixty-thousand people walked past his body lying in repose in the Great Hall of the Military Academy where the Cardinal Archbishop of Santiago officiated Mass. Yes, he had the last laugh, and the Left will continue to seethe in impotence for it.

I don't really know what that's meant to say? The international left? Who are they then?

If Pinochet intended to brutally kill thousands, intended to blight the lives of thousands more, intended to bring the country to the brink of collapse then intended to die reviled by the majority of his countrymen and much of the world, then I'd say he did. If that wasn't his intention then I'd say he failed, quite spectacularly.
 

Gisella

Expert Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2006
Posts
4,822
Media
0
Likes
114
Points
193
Location
USA
Sexuality
99% Straight, 1% Gay
Gender
Female
El Mercurio is the conservative right wing and larger newspaper
Emol.com

La Tercera the moderate one 2nd large in circulation
LA TERCERA

The Clinic the liberal one plus humorous
*****THE CLINIC*****

The Santiago Times news in English
The Santiago Times - English Language Newspaper in Santiago, Chile - News in Chile and Latin America


Chile is a small coutry of 15 million, divided in two and for outsiders is difficult to read the unique legacy left by Pinochet ditactorship that did not kill as many as Argentina (30 thousand) but repressed and tortured the same number of 30 thousand...than the psycological effect left by dictatorship repression still going on by the many who have live it and have the prove of torture in their bodies and their minds, as the regime was trying to clean the scum of marxism, the extreme climate of fear people felt that went on for so long...is there been told if you ask. But now "He died"!

Than for those pro-Pinochet disregarding low count of bodies of enemies of the regime is part of the propaganda of the regime..is part of the economy of the regime. Is the upperclasses that were crying for Pinochet at Military School, the ones who live in great neigboorhoods as Las Conde, the middle upper classes...Pinochet adherents who benefit from the economics, travels abroad, are well educated etc...

But in the other side of the city the crownd the climate is very different, is carnival and party time. Neighboorhoods of La Vitoria, Villa Francia, La Pincoya where repression was great during the regime they are celebrating. They did not see the economical miracle reality in their lives, the minimun wage working class miss again the money train...:rolleyes:

Well, for sure a long way to go for Chileans and there are lots of open processes in the justice against the regime and its participants...no impunity to anyone involved, hopefuly.
 

Matthew

Legendary Member
Gold
Platinum Gold
Joined
Aug 27, 2005
Posts
7,291
Media
0
Likes
1,503
Points
583
Sexuality
99% Gay, 1% Straight
Gender
Male
That's Mr. Sunshine to you. You obviously don't know the difference between censorship and stifling debate. If you as moderator prevent me from posting my opinion that’s censorship but I didn’t accuse you of that. However, when you call someone a fascist just because they express an educated opinion, then you are trying to stifle debate. You obviously don’t know what fascism is. It’s just one of those knee-jerk phrases that you obviously picked up from leftist ideologues who throw it out at anyone who dares correct their propaganda with historical facts and figures.


“Some may have lined up at his funeral, but others were drinking champagne in the parks in Santiago.” Well, at least they have champagne to drink thanks to the economic prosperity that Pinochet left when he voluntarily left office. Go to Cuba and see if the people have champagne to drink there or the freedom to celebrate Castro's terminal illness or the dynastic succession of his brother. The rest of your post is just meaningless rants and foot stomping that don’t merit a reply.

Despite your devastating distinction between censorship and stifling debate:rolleyes:, you continue to argue your points freely, so you might as well just go ahead and post and drop the crybaby act. Respond the way you choose and so will the rest of us.

And as I said in my post which you didn't read although it wouldn't matter if you had, I am talking about fascism as a political and economic system. Fascist (or neo-fascist if you need to) regimes have continued to pop up since the defeat of the Axis powers. I know exactly what fascism is, and as I said previously, Pinochet's regime fits the definition perfectly.

Using Cuba as a bugaboo is a good representation of the weakness of your arguments. You continue to use various versions of "at least he wasn't as bad as X" as your best defense. Even if I granted that Pinochet was the savior of the Chilean economy (which I do not, ha ha), everyone knows that Cuba's economy has been distorted by their reliance on the fallen Soviet Bloc and, more to the point, the US economic war against them. So that comparison doesn't stand. Now, shall we compare the two countries' health care? LOL