Life, Death, Grief & Progress!

sweatyblackballs

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Thanks Jack,

I remember my Gran asking me when my brother was coming back home from Jamaica. She was saying (without saying it) that she could not hold on any longer. She passed away from Breast Cancer. Her body had weakened significantly and the thing that may strike strange with some of you is that we simply did not know. She slowed down so much, we took her to see the GP. The GP gave her tablets to kill pain, strong ones. It was only when she died that we realised she must have been in so much unbearable pain. I can only imagine that she wanted to sleep. To rest. That's what is not easy to deal with, she was in pain and because she had never been sick in the past in 88 years we did not think she was ill, possibly dying. I hate that she was in pain. I hate that she couldn't tell us. I hate that she decided to go. I hate that I know this now and not then. We only found out she had Breast Cancer when it was listed as the cause of death on the death certificate. She deserved more than to go in pain. Unfair. I still love God for the blessing she was and the gifts she gave, but I'm not happy she was in pain.
 

DC_DEEP

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SBB, I'm with you on that remembering the face & voice thing. I can remember Mom's face, if I concentrate. I can (somewhat) remember her voice. The thing that usually gets me misty-eyed, though, is knowing that I'll never get to hear her say my name or sing again.

From my earliest memories, the only time I remember her not singing or humming was when that would have been inappropriate - during the sermon at church or something like that. I asked her about it once, and she told me "the music in my head has always been there, and it never stops. I have to sing." There were lots and lots of women in her hometown who actually chose their wedding dates based on when Mom was available to sing.

I can look at pictures, but I really miss her voice.
 

jack65

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Hello

SBB, i actually understand what your saying and have had feels like that my self with others that have passed away, i would ask god all the time why would you let this happen ( concerning the pain which they have )

I think for a parent its important to show their kids how to deal with the punches life hands us even when its time to go "home".

And i think parents will do that naturally for there whole life, i seen how my own now adult "little girl" suffered from her grandmothers passing away, which got me thinking about when its my turn and how i would not want my own kids to see me like that or have to go though seeing there dad in that state, i wonder if like your grand mum i or any of us would not do the same, which is to hide the pain and try to carry on for as long as we could, just so the younger ones would have less worries.
Even if we did not know that we had cancer or what every it maybe, i think you know when something is not right within you, We tend not to want our kids ( no mater how old the are) to see we are more fragile then we really are.
If your grand mum could say anything to you now what would it be?,I think if it was me i would be saying to my grandkids, yes children i was in pain but its gone now, in fact let us remember the good olds when ........ just to take there minds of what happened because even then i would still feel like i had aways done , a parent.

I would not and do not want to ever see in the eyes of my kids & grandkids a pian that comes from worrying over me, that would break my hart especially if i could not do any to stop it.

I don't know if I'm being clear or not and to truly understand this view point you would need to have kids for awhile, because it makes so much difference to who you tell and how you show the pain your in, because your trying to spear the younger ones a grief that comes from not being able to help, and really that hurts more then the pain your in.

May the peace that your grandma wanted for you be upon you always.

Thank You.
 

AlteredEgo

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Thanks Jack,

I remember my Gran asking me when my brother was coming back home from Jamaica. She was saying (without saying it) that she could not hold on any longer. She passed away from Breast Cancer. Her body had weakened significantly and the thing that may strike strange with some of you is that we simply did not know. She slowed down so much, we took her to see the GP. The GP gave her tablets to kill pain, strong ones. It was only when she died that we realised she must have been in so much unbearable pain. I can only imagine that she wanted to sleep. To rest. That's what is not easy to deal with, she was in pain and because she had never been sick in the past in 88 years we did not think she was ill, possibly dying. I hate that she was in pain. I hate that she couldn't tell us. I hate that she decided to go. I hate that I know this now and not then. We only found out she had Breast Cancer when it was listed as the cause of death on the death certificate. She deserved more than to go in pain. Unfair. I still love God for the blessing she was and the gifts she gave, but I'm not happy she was in pain.

If you had known then, before she died it may have been more painful. Breast cancer, any cancer requires a lot in ordeer to fight it. At 88, your Gran had probably decided she didn't want to contend with the side effects of the available options for the rest of her life. My grandmother is having a recurrence of cancer and said just that. And she's 88 or 89. (We have to stop having these co-incidences.) She said she's not going to fight the cancer, but rather continue to enjoy life until she dies. Actually, outside of the terrifying weight loss, you can't tell anything's wrong.
 

sweatyblackballs

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SBB, I'm with you on that remembering the face & voice thing. I can remember Mom's face, if I concentrate. I can (somewhat) remember her voice. The thing that usually gets me misty-eyed, though, is knowing that I'll never get to hear her say my name or sing again.

I can look at pictures, but I really miss her voice.

Words are so powerful. They shape our lives and cause us such pain as well in the process of doing so. Your words are the words of a proud, compassionate son. Proud of his mother's gift and the love and life it breathed to both people and occasion. I imagine your mother must have had a beautiful tone, resonant of the cleanest whisper. Beautiful. Your words will maintain that voice for you in years to come. Your words are moving. My Gran used to sing all the words at church at least 4 bars behind everyone else ... so when we had finished she was always still singing. The first time I went to church after she died, the hymn finished and everyone broke down because they could all hear her singing but she wasn't there. That moment, like your words, was so moving.

Hello

SBB, i actually understand what your saying and have had feels like that my self with others that have passed away, i would ask god all the time why would you let this happen ( concerning the pain which they have )

i wonder if like your grand mum i or any of us would not do the same, which is to hide the pain and try to carry on for as long as we could, just so the younger ones would have less worries.
Even if we did not know that we had cancer or what every it maybe, i think you know when something is not right within you, We tend not to want our kids ( no mater how old the are) to see we are more fragile then we really are.
If your grand mum could say anything to you now what would it be?,I think if it was me i would be saying to my grandkids, yes children i was in pain but its gone now, in fact let us remember the good olds when ........

I don't know if I'm being clear or not and to truly understand this view point you would need to have kids for awhile, because it makes so much difference to who you tell and how you show the pain your in, because your trying to spear the younger ones a grief that comes from not being able to help, and really that hurts more then the pain your in.

May the peace that your grandma wanted for you be upon you always.

Thank You.

Thank you man. I hear you. I remember her going ... I remember her on her way out. She knew. She spoke to God daily so I know she knew. She made a pact with God. She always told my mother she wanted to see all her children grow-up before she died. She kept her promise because God kept his. She was in pain, but there is an old song we still sing at church called 'Goin' Up Yonder' By Walter Hawkins & The Family:

I can take the pain
The heartache that it brings
The comfort's in knowing
I'll soon be gone
God gives me grace
To run this Christian race
'til I see my Saviour
I see Him face-to-face


That song is powerful and true.

If you had known then, before she died it may have been more painful. Breast cancer, any cancer requires a lot in ordeer to fight it. At 88, your Gran had probably decided she didn't want to contend with the side effects of the available options for the rest of her life. My grandmother is having a recurrence of cancer and said just that. And she's 88 or 89. (We have to stop having these co-incidences.) She said she's not going to fight the cancer, but rather continue to enjoy life until she dies. Actually, outside of the terrifying weight loss, you can't tell anything's wrong.

More coincidences ... :smile: ... LOL! I know right! I agree, I think we underestimate the knowledge, wisdom and intelligence of the older generation sometimes, because we can be so busy babying them ... they make decisions to give in the same way they make the decision to get up every day for 88 years and fight fit for another day. I don't think the cancer was what took her ultimately. I think she wanted to rest and couldn't fight anymore. To that end. I am glad she made that choice, in spite of the pain.

I also see us in this new millenium and wonder how she would have coped with all the advances. It's like "whoa" ... she was right on time.
 

B_blackkid

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My mother died. I became misanthropic and apathetic shortly after.

I have no problems; I simply decided to not grieve.
 

B_blackkid

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1) Losing people hurts, and though the pain subsides, there is still a soreness in a certain area of your heart that doesn't really mend itself completely.

"Pain is weakness leaving the body."

Of course it won't mend itself; this is why you have to mend it yourself. Very little of the human psyche is correctible without a change in attitude. Two years ago I was a wreck; now I could not care less.

It's in how you handle it.

2) What makes it hard to "move on" is that fact that it is hard to come to terms with things "not being back to normal". You gotta understand to the bottom of your heart that things will never be back to normal, but what is left is called the "New Normal" and you must accept and embrace it.

I always thought it was this mentality; the clinging to the past instead of accepting and chasing the future. Peopledie. It's fact. No one is really oblivious to this after a certain age, and frankly since everything's eventual I see no reason for this shock and awe lifestyle. Death is death. Whether there is something beyond it or not doesn't matter; the only tangible body before you won't move no matter how much you dwell on it so it's a pointless endeavor.

3) Progress is made by never forgetting, but also understanding that meaningful relationships can be forged everyday with new people.

Remember the past, but live for tomorrow...

...OB

I partially agree with that; rememberance is also a waste of time and memory is in itself a tool of self-deciet. Living your life, even partially, for a corpse is wrong; trivial existences only serve to wipe themselves out whether it be death whilst breathing or ending one's breathing because of the death; Death is only the Great Conquerer as long as you remember and revere it's power.

The dead are dead. There is nothing more. Even if it is so that there are places outside of this world if one sits and dreams too long of the Dead he is surely making himself bound to join them.
 

B_blackkid

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Do you think that one day you may have an outpouring of grief because of your decision or do you think you will always be ok with it all?

I simply do not have time for the Grief. I did not then, and refuse to make time now. What's to grieve? I understand life's cycles and came to the conclusion that out of the millions who die each day whom I not only don't grieve but do not even acknowledge why would I grieve one?

The misanthropy should probably be absolved though. If I was going to overburst with grief the time has passed; two years, and I am but nineteen, and thus as I get older from this point on as I forge my way less and less of the past will hold any bearing on me.

I refuse to shackle myself to the dead.
 

bottombuddy

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i feel havent properly grieved for a very close family member who died just over 3 yrs ago and it does affect things i do on a daily basis......it has been a hurdle for me and is worse this time of year when im alone......i keep hoping i can have a good few weeks where i can grieve till my hearts content and try move on but it just hasnt happened so far and it does worry me alot.

things just havent been the same for 3 years and slowly i feel its been a downward spiral....and ongoing so.....id ideally like it to stop but dont know how.....i guess its just a process that ive to go through no matter how long it takes but i worry long term if it continues it may affect my own health and that cant be good.
 

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i feel havent properly grieved for a very close family member who died just over 3 yrs ago and it does affect things i do on a daily basis......it has been a hurdle for me and is worse this time of year when im alone......i keep hoping i can have a good few weeks where i can grieve till my hearts content and try move on but it just hasnt happened so far and it does worry me alot.

things just havent been the same for 3 years and slowly i feel its been a downward spiral....and ongoing so.....id ideally like it to stop but dont know how.....i guess its just a process that ive to go through no matter how long it takes but i worry long term if it continues it may affect my own health and that cant be good.

. . .

Did you ever take bereavement leave from work at the time? Not everyone can be mentally stalwart enough not to grieve you know; worst comes to worst just get a therapist and cry on his couch / chair / place of rest.
 

Osiris

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SBB, this January 19th will mark the 24th year of life without my mother. She, like your grandmother, was our uniting rock. After her death, our family direly fragmented (my brother and I live on opposite coasts and did not see each other for 23 years until this past Spring). Every year about this time, I go into a blue funk called my Mort Annum. Mom is especially present on my mind. You never forget and even the pain may not subside, but over the longer course of time you find ways to cope.

A good way to cope is ask yourself this:

Would your grandmother be happy knowing you were sitting around grieving and not living your life? Of course she wouldn't. The best way to honor those that have past is not just live, but live to the fullest for them as a testament to what they gave us.

I also find little things and little ways my mom is still watching over us and always with me. When our baby was born (she was named after my mother), she would get these suddenly very quiet moments and stare up at a particular corner and smile. Every now and again, she will still do this, but now she smiles and talks to whoever she sees in the corner. My baby, like myself, was born with a caul or veil. They say that babies born with them can see that which others cannot. I know I feel a stronger bond to the spirit world as a result, maybe my daughter has one too.

I guess what I am getting at is find the positives in what you have and what is happening and be glad that spirit of your grandmother is still watching over you and guiding you.

As one who understands your pain and loss, I bid you peace brother.
 

bottombuddy

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i had no break from work since......often worked 90+ hours a week (self employed)...ever so stressed running a biz and everything that goes with it and trying to mask out a berevement to keep biz running smoothly.

recently closed biz,lost a long term partner after 14 yrs and now im alone im left with my thoughts on everything......so id say it has affected me not grieving as it made me work longer hours......my partner didnt give me reasons why he left either but it could be because we ran biz together but i worked 2 x more hours than he did so he may have felt abandoned in some ways or felt i didnt want to be around him when it was infact opposite.

we are still in touch however but im alone xmas and until mid january when i'll see him again.......he wont let me discuss how im feeling about anything or he says he will walk out and not come back..all he says is that he is still visiting me occasionally meantime so that should explain alot to me.in otherwords if he didnt want to - he wouldnt come round.
 

sweatyblackballs

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"Pain is weakness leaving the body."

No one is really oblivious to this after a certain age, and frankly since everything's eventual I see no reason for this shock and awe lifestyle. Death is death. Whether there is something beyond it or not doesn't matter; the only tangible body before you won't move no matter how much you dwell on it so it's a pointless endeavor.

I partially agree with that; rememberance is also a waste of time and memory is in itself a tool of self-deciet. Living your life, even partially, for a corpse is wrong; trivial existences only serve to wipe themselves out whether it be death whilst breathing or ending one's breathing because of the death; Death is only the Great Conquerer as long as you remember and revere it's power.

The dead are dead. There is nothing more. Even if it is so that there are places outside of this world if one sits and dreams too long of the Dead he is surely making himself bound to join them.

I think that first quote about pain is powerful. I have never been exposed to it before. Thank you for sharing.

I don't think people here have so much a problem with death. Grief is a result of loss. Children grieve, so to speak, when they lose toys and other mementoes. It is the loss that brings about the overbearing sense of pain. Death is not a part of life, it is the end of life and to that extent it stands firmly alone. The loss of memories, voices, mental pictures - those are the things that are almost unbearable. You may hear something or see something and then a memory is triggered and suddenly everything collapses.
You are right the dead are the dead but only in flesh. In spirit and soulfully, loved ones will always live on for some of us. Admittedly some deal with grief better, some ignore it and some just get over it all and move on. That is fine, but for those of us who do still grieve after years it is the loss that bites.

Memory is not, as far as I'm concerned, a waste of time. The posts on this thread prove that memory is comforting. That is anything but wasteful, it helps us to convalesce.

Death does not overpower. Grief does. My gran is not a corpse since her flesh is dead. I do not stand a her grave and weep for her. That does not work for me. But every now and then, as I said, everything collapses.

Death leaves a heartache no one can heal, love leaves a memory no one can steal.
 

B_blackkid

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The guy sounds worried for your health bottombuddy. You really should just take the bereavement; everyone needs a vacation, whether it be for relaxation or for rehabilitation. You're not an exception; you're "alone" sogive him your cell if you have one, or some other method of contact, and go somewhere and do something or even just go rest.

Worst comes to worse your life won't abruptly end because you decided to resolve your issues right?

Just consider it.
 

bottombuddy

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The guy sounds worried for your health bottombuddy. You really should just take the bereavement; everyone needs a vacation, whether it be for relaxation or for rehabilitation. You're not an exception; you're "alone" sogive him your cell if you have one, or some other method of contact, and go somewhere and do something or even just go rest.

Worst comes to worse your life won't abruptly end because you decided to resolve your issues right?

Just consider it.

ive been worrying about his health for years as he had his second nervous breakdown during time he left .....i always stood by him whatever his problems were (often major ones) and he knew i was always there for him only...but i dont think he fully understands or understood that i never grieved....he didnt flinch when his close loved ones died as he said he never really loved them or had a close relationship with them and suppose he thought everyone else should be the same......life would be so good if it was easy but its always complicated at times.
 

sweatyblackballs

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A good way to cope is ask yourself this:

I also find little things and little ways my mom is still watching over us and always with me. When our baby was born (she was named after my mother), she would get these suddenly very quiet moments and stare up at a particular corner and smile. Every now and again, she will still do this, but now she smiles and talks to whoever she sees in the corner. My baby, like myself, was born with a caul or veil. They say that babies born with them can see that which others cannot. I know I feel a stronger bond to the spirit world as a result, maybe my daughter has one too.

As one who understands your pain and loss, I bid you peace brother.

That's beautiful about your daughter bro. Very. Thank you for your kind words, they were a joy to read.

i had no break from work since......often worked 90+ hours a week (self employed)...ever so stressed running a biz and everything that goes with it and trying to mask out a berevement to keep biz running smoothly.

recently closed biz,lost a long term partner after 14 yrs and now im alone im left with my thoughts on everything......so id say it has affected me not grieving as it made me work longer hours......my partner didnt give me reasons why he left either but it could be because we ran biz together but i worked 2 x more hours than he did so he may have felt abandoned in some ways or felt i didnt want to be around him when it was infact opposite.

we are still in touch however but im alone xmas and until mid january when i'll see him again.......he wont let me discuss how im feeling about anything or he says he will walk out and not come back..all he says is that he is still visiting me occasionally meantime so that should explain alot to me.in otherwords if he didnt want to - he wouldnt come round.

You have a lot to grieve for. You have lost alot. Some others would have gone under for less. Your partner, Your loved one and Your work. That is loss. You should take time to grieve. Just moments in the day where you reflect on what you no longer have. If you find it doesn't subside a counsellor is a good bet. Talking about things goes such a long way in allow yourself a healing process.
 

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I think that first quote about pain is powerful. I have never been exposed to it before. Thank you for sharing.

I don't think people here have so much a problem with death. Grief is a result of loss. Children grieve, so to speak, when they lose toys and other mementoes. It is the loss that brings about the overbearing sense of pain. Death is not a part of life, it is the end of life and to that extent it stands firmly alone. The loss of memories, voices, mental pictures - those are the things that are almost unbearable. You may hear something or see something and then a memory is triggered and suddenly everything collapses.

As I said the memory is the greatest deciever; I was blind to many things whilst my mother, and grandmother, were both alive. I now see them for who they were; great people, but none-the-less I must fight off the "urge" to remember them in a perfect light. They were human; just as much as I.

Furthermore I cannot speak for others in the sense that grieving is psychologically healthy, and for some, neccessary; I simply view it as a waste of time, but all things aside however you choose to spend your time is obviously not a waste. Speaking of which death is a part of life; it's what makes your child worthwhile and what makes the "memories" you speak of so dear; the unconscious knowledge that a person will leave us gives that bittersweet taste to our emotions and memories; it's what makes our tears all the more genuine as long before you ever cried them you knew you would have to. Without death life loses sanctity, and eventually it loses meaning. We live because we know we will die. Otherwise laying under the sun endlessly enjoying the days and doing nothing but eating, sleeping, fucking, and whatever else would be the goal. Why bother striving to make a memory if you're guarenteed never to die? Tis a waste. While it's a hated prhase, one which many people are blindly disagreeing with, we live to die. All of your activities, up till now, have they not been to ensure some kind of pleasure or feeling, some memory whether just for you or not? You too are aware of your ability to impact life, and once old enough to reflect you want to remember yourself as you wish yourself to be, but of course if you truly remember yourself as you were you may be appauled; that goes for anyone however and isn't a judgement on someone I do not know.

You are right the dead are the dead but only in flesh. In spirit and soulfully, loved ones will always live on for some of us. Admittedly some deal with grief better, some ignore it and some just get over it all and move on. That is fine, but for those of us who do still grieve after years it is the loss that bites.

Of course it hurts; thus the construct. The dead are dead, and whether In the Spirit or in the Soul you can't contact them. They become figments of your imagination as far as this world is concerned; you're the only one who "feels" these beings, you and perhaps your family collective. We call things like that DELUSIONS. Of course that's rather harsh on my part; my insensitivity is quite uncalled for. I act as if I am immune to human heartache but as I said, two years ago, a wreck. Twas the decision to simply stop clining to such ideas that made life easier.

Memory is not, as far as I'm concerned, a waste of time. The posts on this thread prove that memory is comforting. That is anything but wasteful, it helps us to convalesce.

Fair enough, but what good is comfort when it impedes the goal? Grieving is meant to end; if you're keeping it alive with your memory all you're doing is killing time and stifling the process. That's up to you though; again for some it can take, literally, decades and beyond.

Death does not overpower. Grief does. My gran is not a corpse since her flesh is dead. I do not stand a her grave and weep for her. That does not work for me. But every now and then, as I said, everything collapses.

Death is powerful. It draws these things out of you; listen to yourself denying it's power when it's the cause of your plight. Why do you grieve? Did you grieve like this when you lost the game, or got less than expected in some field? Could you not hold it together? What makes those things different; after all it is you who attributed all of this to the Child, grieving for a toy. Perhaps it was a mistake on your part, but if you can make that correlation ( assuming the toy cannot or will not be replaced ) then I see less and less reason to find that Death, the ultimate loss, has no power.

If Grief was so powerful you'd be bound to it forever in all aspects; you'd grieve things you look back and smile on, and you'd regret things you have come to understand. It is death, and death alone, that stands out of this crowd; for even in the Loss of Time no such force has been known to constrain to the point of suffocation like Death.

Death leaves a heartache no one can heal, love leaves a memory no one can steal.

What good is a memory if you're condemned to a hospital bed? I'd prefer health with no wound and memories lost to a memory and the incapcitation it brings. Wouldn't you?
 

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You have a lot to grieve for. You have lost alot. Some others would have gone under for less. Your partner, Your loved one and Your work. That is loss. You should take time to grieve. Just moments in the day where you reflect on what you no longer have. If you find it doesn't subside a counsellor is a good bet. Talking about things goes such a long way in allow yourself a healing process.

thanks for understanding..apprecite the support....realise ive lost a hell of alot....could be i need to make a huge change of direction in my life in 2008..or perhaps its my destiny that 2008 will be year of big changes for me.

i tell my cat all my worries and problems but get a blank stare most of the time ....he helps me smile and laugh too.
 

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ive been worrying about his health for years as he had his second nervous breakdown during time he left .....i always stood by him whatever his problems were (often major ones) and he knew i was always there for him only...but i dont think he fully understands or understood that i never grieved....he didnt flinch when his close loved ones died as he said he never really loved them or had a close relationship with them and suppose he thought everyone else should be the same......life would be so good if it was easy but its always complicated at times.

You know, you don't have to explain it to him. There are support groups, probably within your area, and even further you can just tell him you're "stressed" which is ultimately the truth. There are people who will not see what you see and no one feels what you feel, thus if push comes to shove tell him "It's sudden, but I gotta take some time to work out some stuff." when he asks tell him it's private, give him the number, and go.

You cannot live like that. No one should. I don't care if you lost your favorite pen; if you need the time to yourself take it as whilst he might be your friend that's all he is for now, a friend. You're you. You're the only one who can heal you. He can't. Apparently even if he could, he wouldn't, so you might as well step up to the plate.

Then again, I'm not you, and we don't share the same insecurities and strengths so I suppose my coaching, or even bothering, is somewhat pointless as I could never understand everything. When one thinks of it that way. . . I wonder why I am here at all.

Oh well, good luck then; I dare not badger you further for I'd only be a fool dancing to a tune I need to turn off.