Life is a miracle

EllieP

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The unknown is a scary place. Therefore, we need someone bigger than us to hold our hand, someone who's not afraid of the unknown, or someone who knows the unknown. Maybe even someone who created the unknown?

I'm fine with not knowing everything, and it doesn't diminish me that I don't know.

I have no problem with someone's belief in a creator or even a deity. Heaven knows we have a lot of deities in this life whom we worship.

I have a problem with organized religion that seeps into society and government and makes rules that I have to live under. And then they complain about other religions overseas that do the exact same thing.

Personally, I'd rather venture into the unknown.
 

BIGBULL29

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If you look at all the disgusting suffering and evil over the history of humanity, abortion is the path of least suffering.

It's amusing see how abortion is propped up by the religious right as the evil of all evils, considering the despicable evils "The Born" experience every day around the world. I don't want to be raised in an orphanage or have mentally sick parents. If my mommy doesn't want me, then I don't want to face the world. I know a once-orphan and his life is hell as an adult.

Adopt all the aborted babies. Raise them. Stop buying mansions and fancy cars. Store them treasures up in heaven as them gospels command.

It's easier to sort of believe in fairy tales when you're rich and comfy with no big problems in life. You can believe you were "blessed" somehow and the others "cursed" for their butt-fucking ways.

This is a great time to be rich as an Evangelical - best time in history, in fact. The church praises your wealth (you're blessed, believing that god wants all to be rich, even though you're supposed to store your treasures up in heaven. As long as you "don't love or cling to your wealth, right?" If you didn't, then you'd be storing it up in heaven. That's neat.

You're not your brother's keeper.

Life is all random, a real chaotic mess. No rhyme or reason to it. You just do it. Not sure why. It's short anyways. Work 50+ years in some illogical job, get terrible diseases .... and then die. :confused:
 
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malakos

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When Descartes reached the limits of empirical evidence

What are you talking about? Descartes was a Rationalist, not an Empiricist. He worked with a method of philosophical inquiry based on mental probing, not empirical observation. The very foundation of his works was methodological doubt, and the main thing that is cast aside in this method is the reliability of the senses. I haven't a clue where you would get the idea that his work was based on "empirical evidence".

he bailed on science

The scientific method didn't even exist at the time. How could he have bailed on something that didn't exist?

and embraced a god-of-the-gaps argument to explain the unexplained.

Filling in gaps was not the concern nor the basis for his arguments for the existence of God.

Descartes' proofs of his god's existence are crap because they are based on a false premise which cannot be tested or verified.

Explain the weaknesses you see in his arguments. I'm aware of a number of weaknesses of his arguments (in multiple considerations, not just regarding the existence of God) but you haven't given the impression you have a clue what you're talking about.

Yes we do.

Oh, you're a mind reader now? Where did you learn that?

Oh well that makes it all right doesn't it? :rolleyes: Blaming kids for the lies adults perpetrate? I haven't heard that one before.:confused:

I'm not blaming anyone. There's no blame to go around on that issue. There's nothing morally wrong with fairy tales.

OP believes the religious myth of a creator who made the universe especially for humans so the burden of proof is on him and other religionists like him.

Burden of proof is not determined by the type of belief, but rather by the type of assertion. If an atheist were to go up to an acquaintance, who was wearing a cross, and randomly told him "your god is fake", the burden of proof would actually be on the atheist as he/she would be the one making the claim. In this case, you are the one who made the assertion "your creation myth is a lie", so there is a burden of proof on you to support that assertion.

With zero empirical evidence of such a creator and thousands of competing creation myths from cultures and tribes past and present I am justified calling it a lie.

No, you are not. Absence of evidence does not imply evidence of falsity. Nor is it empirically proven that empirical observation is the only means of arriving at knowledge.
 

BIGBULL29

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It's common knowledge that religious devotion and serious belief in the doctrines of one's religion is far more common among the poor.

....who are highly uneducated, for that matter.

But when you know better, that is "poor and super educated"..... DAYUM......................this ain't for real.
 

wallyj84

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I don't see any reason to suspect that it is an impossibility. Feel free to explain.

We both know you don't have any proof for that being's existence outside of faith or some really ridiculous logic. We also both know that it's virtually impossible for me to disprove that being's existence. So let's just stop here and agree to disagree.
 

malakos

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We both know you don't have any proof for that being's existence

There's no good reason to bring up that question given that I have made no assertions of such a being existing or not existing.

We also both know that it's virtually impossible for me to disprove that being's existence.

Oh? So why are you so confident about something being impossible if it's virtually impossible to prove such?

I'm calling you on it because you are the one who actually made assertions about the (non)existence of an infinite deity. I've made no such assertions on the matter either way (in part because I have no conviction either way). I simply demonstrated that your original question reflects a lack of understanding of the concept.
 
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The unknown is a scary place. Therefore, we need someone bigger than us to hold our hand, someone who's not afraid of the unknown, or someone who knows the unknown. Maybe even someone who created the unknown?

I'm fine with not knowing everything, and it doesn't diminish me that I don't know.

I have no problem with someone's belief in a creator or even a deity. Heaven knows we have a lot of deities in this life whom we worship.

I have a problem with organized religion that seeps into society and government and makes rules that I have to live under. And then they complain about other religions overseas that do the exact same thing.

Personally, I'd rather venture into the unknown.

Absolutely! Organized religion and government must remain separate. And the creator's unknown helps ensure that they do.
 

halcyondays

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What are you talking about? Descartes was a Rationalist, not an Empiricist.

Exactly. For all his mathematical and scientific genus he abandoned empirical evidence when he could not explain why the universe existed and chose instead to build his logical arguments of "creation" on the flawed premise of his religious training.

Not something a rational man would do.

What empirical evidence? The mathematical equations he saw and discovered in his own mind! Just like Newton and Einstein! If Descartes had not accurately described some aspect of the natural world no one would know his name or his math.

No, you are not. Absence of evidence does not imply evidence of falsity. Nor is it empirically proven that empirical observation is the only means of arriving at knowledge.

Yes I am and yes it does in this case. OP is not a deist. He believes in a father god named Yahweh, a son god named Jesus, their insubstantial friend the Holy Spirit and that these three are one. I can guarantee you with 100% certainty they don't exist.

If OP had made a deist statement like "god is the universe" I wouldn't argue because the universe exists, but such a statement would conflict with the theology (which OP has embraced over and over) of his Abrahamic faith which says Yahweh and his creation are two separate things. He may choose to mash the two together (I know lots of people who do) but he'd be creating his own religion. And he'd be an apostate to his god Yahweh.

OP disses atheists when he is an atheist for all the other gods/goddesses/deities--a list of thousands--he rejects.
 

BIGBULL29

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You should go into politics

I enjoy you so much hunghorse. You say exactly what I'm thinking - it's almost as if I can predict the beautiful words that come out of your mouth.

Maybe we're big dick twins? ;)

People just can't let others live and let live.

.
 
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MikesJohnson

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OP believes the religious myth of a creator who made the universe especially for humans so the burden of proof is on him and other religionists like him. With zero empirical evidence of such a creator and thousands of competing creation myths from cultures and tribes past and present I am justified calling it a lie.

There's a plethora of evidence of a creator, you just are unwilling to accept any of it. That's fine with me, I won't lose any sleep over it.

I will reiterate what I stated earlier. The ABG (anything but God) followers will bend over backwards to dismiss the theory that a highly intelligent being created our universe, but won't offer another theory.
 

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I have a problem with organized religion that seeps into society and government and makes rules that I have to live under.

I agree with you there. Where you and I may differ, however, is that I also oppose government demanding that I provide funding for someone's college loan or to start up a business. Many liberals don't want religion seeping into our personal lives but have no problem using government to extract money from us for all sorts of social justice causes.
 

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If you look at all the disgusting suffering and evil over the history of humanity, abortion is the path of least suffering.

It's amusing see how abortion is propped up by the religious right as the evil of all evils, considering the despicable evils "The Born" experience every day around the world. I don't want to be raised in an orphanage or have mentally sick parents. If my mommy doesn't want me, then I don't want to face the world. I know a once-orphan and his life is hell as an adult.

Adopt all the aborted babies. Raise them. Stop buying mansions and fancy cars. Store them treasures up in heaven as them gospels command.

It's easier to sort of believe in fairy tales when you're rich and comfy with no big problems in life. You can believe you were "blessed" somehow and the others "cursed" for their butt-fucking ways.

This is a great time to be rich as an Evangelical - best time in history, in fact. The church praises your wealth (you're blessed, believing that god wants all to be rich, even though you're supposed to store your treasures up in heaven. As long as you "don't love or cling to your wealth, right?" If you didn't, then you'd be storing it up in heaven. That's neat.

You're not your brother's keeper.

Life is all random, a real chaotic mess. No rhyme or reason to it. You just do it. Not sure why. It's short anyways. Work 50+ years in some illogical job, get terrible diseases .... and then die. :confused:

Quick and easy question for you. Are you happy or sad that your mother didn't abort you?
 

MikesJohnson

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Yes I am and yes it does in this case. OP is not a deist. He believes in a father god named Yahweh, a son god named Jesus, their insubstantial friend the Holy Spirit and that these three are one. I can guarantee you with 100% certainty they don't exist.

Then explain how the universe created itself. Explain how life created itself. Explain how the millions of people who have shared their near-death experiences were wrong.
 

MikesJohnson

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OP disses atheists when he is an atheist for all the other gods/goddesses/deities--a list of thousands--he rejects.

And because you adhere to the ABG theory, you also subscribe to the "everything came from nothing" theory that has ZERO evidence. And atheists tell us they don't believe in fairy tales. LOL.