Locker Room Double Standard

musclebare9

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Sorry to hear about your experience, I have been there. It is uncomfortable. I am 6'4" and good at intimidating people but that doesn't always work. I have found the best way around the situation is to humiliate them. Start out referring to them as a troll, it is a well known term that they probably won't appreciate. Then insult them on their physical appearance. Such as, "Why would I be interested in a pot-bellied pig with a short dick like you?" "Hey slimey, you got some nice man-boobs there." "I'm sorry but the locker room for old hags like you is down the hall." I am sure you can come up with your own. It really goes against my nature to treat people like this but they are the ones who crossed the line. Hopefully, this should cause them to crawl back under their rock. I did have one guy that just wouldn't quit. He kept showing up in the shower when I was there. I changed my workout schedule and lost him for a while. Once he learned my new schedule, he was in the shower again. He started turning up everywhere I went. It was definitely a case of stalking. I should have reported him. I finally left the gym.
 

DenverGND

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What an awful experience.

I'm not a big muscle guy so rather than resort to the threat of a physical confrontation, I would have resorted to the verbal approach.

When he said, "I wanna eat that cake," I probably would have looked at him and said, "It looks to me like you've already eaten enough cake" and walked away.

At any rate, that behavior is totally unacceptable. HIS membership should have been canceled and he should have been thrown out of the gym.
 

Gillette

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I think the leverage the troll used to get the security guard on his side was the "faggot" comment. Perhaps a way to handle this in the future is to get out of there quickly--maybe even with the troll following you to the security station, which would be ideal, because that would prove your point--and to explain (using "faggot"-free language) that someone in the showers has crossed the line into sexual harassment and what they were doing. ("This man has followed me from the showers, where he was doing x type of sexual harassment....")

That way, people listening to you would understand that this is not just an "I'm too sensitive and can't stand when other men glance at me in the showers" case, which is the way it seems like it's been trivialized by the authority figures at your gym. Sexual harassment is sexual harassment; talk about it using that language, without focusing on the orientation issue, and you'll win points (and your case) in this overly PC environment.


NcBear beat me to it. The orientation specific language combined with the threat of violence is where you lost the status of victim in this instance.

Even though this guys persistence in dogging you from one room to another is clearly harrassment your eventual response gave him a card to play with security. You have to keep in mind that his behavior marks him as an ASSHOLE first and foremost. His orientation means he's doing this to you instead of some woman.

I understand your reaction completely but I'd suggest, as others have, that you start sooner telling him that you recognize what he is doing and that it has to stop immediately. Use all the profanity you like to emphasize your point just try to keep it orientation neutral so you can't be falsely labeled as homophobic.

As for the threat of violence, I can understand how you might have been at wits end with this guy. The best thing you could have done is to seek security while you were still at wits center. When you're so aggravated that you're grinding your teeth that is the time to go security yourself and have them step in. By staying in that situation you allowed your temper to build up with his additional provocation. I know men don't like to ask for help (or directions) but in this highly litigious society it doesn't always pay to stand up for yourself too forcefully. Get someone (in this case security) who is in a position to take that stand on your behalf.
 

thoswood

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thanx, bm/ac: your first entry opened up some experiences i had-- and really didn't want to remember-- caused by guys like the one you encountered, and i felt kinda sick all over again. and, yeah, it's not about being a homophobe: it's abt dealing with creeps. being stalked and verbally demeaned violates our rights-- raising a fist violates university rules. if there is a next time, make sure you're the one to call security-- you were being sexually harassed. maybe your buds were trying to steer you away from the kind of bad experience they had already had. this thread has made me look at some things i wish i didn't remember: hope your experience helps others avoid this kind crap. but, bm/ac don't let the bastards throw you off-- keep up the good work.
 

DC_DEEP

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His behavior was inappropriate, but just not terribly unlike that of many straight males toward females.

After he followed you the second time, your response should have been a simple "I'm not interested." If he followed you a third time, your response should have been to report him - calmly - to security.

I understand your frustration, but the name-calling and veiled threat were not appropriate, either.

Funny you should mention the double standard, as you admit to your own double standard. Strange that you would find a "pursuer" more threatening because he was older and fatter, than if he had been younger and more fit.

Still, his first actions were inappropriate.

Musclebare9, no offense intended, but your suggestions for insulting and intimidating someone are just the wrong answer. That's how you escalate a situation, not how you defuse it.
 

TitanicJake

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I can relate to your issue. The most trouble I have had is when I am in the showers at a gym that has a large variety in its membership. When I go to the "Muscle Gym" I get less incidents in the locker room/showers.
I have seen many guys leave the local gym or Y all sweaty and I can;t understand it. I would never leave and drive home smelling like sweat. I can imagine that they are either too modest for open showers or they do not want to be cruised.
In the future I would get dressed immediately and report the person immediately. I know you had an honest reaction but to hold a fist probably scared the shit out of the old bastard and in his scorn he reported you to someone he knew would probably back him. Just my advice.
I have argued naked and it is a losing battle. Also you were angry and it is hard to think fast while angry and naked and uncomfortable.
You could still make an appointment to see a manager about the intitial following. I did when a muscle dude was all of the sudden always parking next to me and timing his workouts with mine. I couldn;t get away from him and he became more aggressive and showering was not relaxing like it should be. Sometimes I sport a bit of wood after heavey lifting and a warm shower or sauna. It is just my body and my father taught me to just let it run its course and not be embarrassed. I just didn't think it (or my body) would attract the amount of unwanted attention I get as I keep to my self as that happens and shower as quickly as possible.
I do not mind men flirting alittle. I figure if I don't allow them to stroke my cock they can then stroke my ego. So I talk but they know in my body movements and words that I am not interested.
So many people associate nudity with sex that I can't stand it. This guy sounds like a perv who should be reported as I reported the guy who semed to be following me. That gym was very accomodating.
Jake
PS The biggest problems I have had in the gym or showers have been with straight married men. They are always the biggest sexual harassers I have come across.
 

JMeister

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PS The biggest problems I have had in the gym or showers have been with straight married men. They are always the biggest sexual harassers I have come across.

Can you elaborate on this? Are these straight married men interested in you sexually and if they are would that not make them something other than straight?
 

saabman

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I'm still mad at the guy, and justly so, so I described him in ugly, yet accurate, terms. Were he a "hunk," I'd have felt less threatened. Why? Cause this ugly old guy thinking he has a shot with a straight guy who, setting modesty aside for a second, is quite muscular and referred to as attractive - that guy being so deluded to think he'd get something out of me makes me think he's a psycho and capable of anything.


Ya know what? What happened to you happens to me alot. I love to relax and unwind after lifting in the sauna at my gym, too. I'm in shape, pretty hung, and uncut and me and my brothers are used to the stares in the locker room when we shower. Most guys can take a hint. Some can't, and the ones who don't are usually the old fat bald guys. (No offense to anyone). I mean - it amazes me man. These guys who are old enough to be my father or grandfather actually think they are gonna get somewhere with me. What makes them think that??? Why can't they take a massive hint???

If they continue to follow me back and forth from the showers to the sauna - I usually tell them straight up, "It ain't gonna happen, man - so cut it out". It's always worked for me.

This guy that hit on you went over the line with his comment. You did nothing wrong. I dig both guys and girls, and I prolly would have done the same thing. I would have felt attacked.
 

F_Man

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While I appreciate what was unacceptable about the old troll's behavior, as soon as you cross the line from saying you are not interested to using hate speech (Fuck off, Faggot!) and threatening violence (whether or not you meant it), you are the problem, not just a victim. That's not a double standard. That is the rules of all Canadian and American universities of which I know. That you find being propositioned so threatening that you have to react violently is pretty much the dictionary definition of "homophobia."

Let me reiterate that I am not defending the troll's behavior. But, it doesn't require anything more that a direct statement that you are feeling harrassed to stop trolling behavior. As soon as he asked if he could "help," you might have said, "No. And by the way, your behavior is unacceptable in a public locker room. If you don't stop it I'll report you to security." If he still didn't stop, you might have actually reported him. Neither epithets nor violence are necessary. That is your part in the situation, and you need to own up to it and move on.

DC Deep and fortiesfun have already best put the indicent into proper perspective with their "how-to" proposal as well. In situations like this, it's useful to think of yourself as a subject (a traditional masculine view) and not as an object. A subject does not get pissed-off, annoyed, become overly bothered, and certainly doesn't run away between sauna and showers back and forth. If you view yourself as an object (I, the defined, built & beautiful; the other: fat & ugly, alas, the voyer & the troll) instead of a subject, you give a marginal possibility to be victimized.

A simple, clear sentence early on, joined by a firm look, should have stopped the whole pathetic spectacle at its roots. If not, after a warning, report him.

P.S. Is that YOU in your Avatar? I'd be surprised if there wasn't someone drooling over all the time:)

Take care :smile:

FM
 

DC_DEEP

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Thanks, FinnMan.

It still reminds me of the situation I have seen, over and over again, in the straight realm. In a bar, if a guy puts a move on a woman, should she just say "No thanks, I'm not interested" or should she say "Fuck off, man."?? If he makes a second comment to her, should she report him to the bouncer, or should she pull out a can of pepper spray, aim it at his face, and scream "I said fuck off, motherfucking rapist? After I spray you, I'll pick up a beer bottle and break it over your face!"???

No, straight guys are often very persistent when a woman says "no." They usually think if they are persistent enough, they will get what they want.

The only difference between the two scenarios is that one woman against one man would not seem as threatening as one young muscle guy against one old fat double-earringed faggot. Right? Should straight guys have the same "two strikes, you're out" limit as gay guys? Should women be able to level the playing field and make threats, the same as straight guys do with gays?

Let's really drop the double standards.

And I know that a few people will probably flame me for this one, but soliciting sex in a public restroom is just nasty... and soliciting sex in a gym shower or sauna is way beyond annoying and disgusting.
 

Glansman

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To be honest this has little connection with sexual orientation - although the sensitivity of that physical area and the vulnerability of nudity heightens the matter- it is to do with plain simple good manners which have been gradually eroding all the time. If you wait patiently in line for a bus, what entitles some guy to walk straight up and slide into the door ahead of you? Lack of consideration for others.
Women have had to endure this sort of thing for decades. Even though they might be fully entitled and justified in taking the matter to a senior at work they hesitate to do so because it creates "bad feeling"
Gay men also suffer frequently from being harassed by persistent men who totally refuse to take a hint.
There are various approaches that work or fail depending on the person.
You can freeze, fix them in a steady, lengthy stare and move the head from side to side in a definite "NO" movement. This can be surprisngly effective at times as it hits an "embarrassment" switch for many.
Alternatively, finish drying off, walk across and say quietly but firmly something along the lines of
"I don't know you - in fact I don't WANT to know you. But whatever it is you're hoping to get from me, it's not coming. DO we understand each other?"
or
"I don't think you realise how much your constant staring irritates me. If you won't take the hint yourself I'll have to do what I don't want to do and go to the office about it."
"Did your father - if you know who he was - not tell you it was rude to stare? If not,, I'm telling you now. And I don't LIKE it."
You might get a bitchy rejoiner - a sort of "you don't frighten me" face-saver but it's worth it.


Hey "bigmuscles averagecock" I am gay and totally support you. I've done my share of looking in showers and being looked at. I hate it when guys won't take the hint that you don't want them gawking. It's cool to "size up" as you said - sometimes the person enjoys it, other times not. It's pretty obvious when it's not appreciated.

I sincerely hope you do not lose your gym membership. Let us know.
 

torturedbeacon

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Bigmuscles Averagecock,


Reading your story, I had two reactions. First is I relate. I really hate when people invade my space at the gym. Cruising can be fine and fun, but if someone is not interested, they're not interested. That has to be respected. It makes me feel really uncomfortable and hostile, like you felt. Frankly, I hate it and I hate them when that happens.

However, putting what is "right" and "just" aside... the language may have been unnecessary. Just cause you want to be left alone, doesn't mean you needed to bust out the word "faggot." He also probably wouldn't have called security if you didn't use the word "faggot" and hold your fist up. If you think about it, he made you feel uncomfortbale, but you threatened him physically. It seems that maybe if you'd just said, "Not interested" or even "Fuck off" with the "faggot," despite how justifiably annoyed you were, the whole situation may have ended and without security being called. Sure it was annoying and uncomfortable, but were you in physical danger? You look like you could take most people in a fight.

When you bust out hate language, people don't respond in predictable or even logical ways. So while I agree that being upset is understandable, using that language doesn't seem like it was the most effective way to handle the situation.

And even more simply. "Faggot" is an ugly, hate word. Do you want to be the kind of person that uses words like "faggot" which are in the same class as some racial epithets that I won't type here?
 

Wave

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Big Muscles.....you had a LOT o reasons to be upset at this guy, especially after he followed you in and out of the rooms so many times. but basically, his social cluelessness aside, he was probably just 'bound by the beauty,' to quote canadian Jane Syberry. it was really ludicrous of him to go after security..those are the worst kind of hypocrites. but be flattered that he enjoyed your physique, etc. even if he was tacky and tasteless in how he did it. :cool:
 

bstexas

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bigmuscles_averagecock ...

this thread is growing fast and haven't had a chance to read all the comments, but I can see why you were irritated. I've had stares and comments in gym showers before and it's one of several reasons I recently chaged where I work out. Not only was the so-called troll out of line, but he kept following incessantly.

If I were you, I wouldn't have made it past the first round trip to the shower, sauna and back without saying something. Not sure if you were giving him the benefit of the doubt or just being shy, but I would have said something to this guy LONG before you did. Maybe that internal buildup is what caused you to get sorta aggressive when you finally started the verbal conversation.

That being said, he still should have not acted the way he did. I'm gay and that's something I'd never do ... nor would most of my friends. It's harrassment whether it is u (a str8 guy) or myself (a gay guy) that gets this type of unwanted treatment.

And with the way that the security guard acted, I think you should have written a letter to the university, security service management or both. You should not have to deal with this sort of treatment and have it taken so lightly. The fact that you had a couple witnesses to the action by the harrasser, you could have at LEAST gotten some type or apology from the security service or university and even had the guard reprimanded if you pushed.

I would assume that the least you want is just to be able to have a refreshing shower after your workout like anyone else would be expected to get. If you see the troll or security again, you should think about filing a report.
 

BigLittleMan

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Perhaps a way to handle this in the future is to get out of there quickly--maybe even with the troll following you to the security station, which would be ideal, because that would prove your point--and to explain (using "faggot"-free language) that someone in the showers has crossed the line into sexual harassment and what they were doing. ("This man has followed me from the showers, where he was doing x type of sexual harassment....

i completely disagree. why should you have to leave when you weren't doing anything wrong? he's the one who should have left. and i would have filed a sexual harassment charge against him and the security guard.

gay people can be the biggest of hypocrites--"respect us even though we are disrespectful; accept us even though we aren't accepting; don't judge us even though we judge..." the list goes on.
 

Deve1opment

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I've been following your thread Big M Avg Cock. I think you are totally right. No one should have to put up with unwanted advances - from anyone. And, I can understand your frustration and the way you dealt with things. Violence is never the answer but I think you made your position clear. No means no. Be glad that he showed interest in you. You have a really great physique from what I can see and hey, if I was in the next shower stall could probably not have kept from looking. Don't let it cloud your view though. All gay men are not like that so please don't tar us all with the same brush. Enjoy your time at Uni.
 

Matthew

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Thanks fortiesfun, Gillette, NCBear, DCDeep and others who brought some reason to this thread. Everyone can agree that locker room harassment is uncool and needs to stop. Really, the story wouldn't need to continue from there, but the original poster introduced several other elements to the problem, whether he acknowledges it or not.

As many pointed out in various ways, 'two wrongs don't make a right' is not a difficult concept. I actually believe it's a symbol of ethical decline (in the U.S at least) that so many people can't seem to understand that. Instead they think 'If someone wrongs me, any reaction I have is justified'. One problem with that is that we want to paint ourselves as good people; it's very difficult not to minimize our own wrongs while wanting to hold other fully accountable. But no. The fact that this guy was an asshole justifies neither the abusive language nor the physical threat. As many have noted, there are several other ways the original poster could have brought consequences on the person bothering him without resorting to the things he did.

Speaking of physical threats, the parallel between the shower stalker and men assaulting women is not accurate. What physical threat did an old, naked, overweight guy pose to our "hero"? To say this is the same as a man making sexual advances toward a woman alone in a park (or whatever similar example was given) minimizes the real physical danger that accompanies that annoying, unwanted proposition. Unwanted sexual attention is bothersome. It becomes threatening when someone has the power to physically force themselves on you.

Thanks to those who pointed out that gay men are also the objects of this too, not just the perpetrators. And yet these threads so often get turned into "straight man's burden." And that's what I so often hate about them - legitimate gripes turn into a back-patting session for a few straight guys to commiserate about how the gays are fucking up their lives. My wish for everybody: may unwanted attention in the locker room be the worst problem you have to face.

In fact, this story in particular, complete with the ogling security guard who doesn't listen to any eyewitnesses, almost seems designed to create the most favorable environment possible for a guy to be 'supported' for his homophobia. And please - 'some of my best friends are gay' is the oldest line in the book. People should be judged on their actions and the merits of their ideas, not because they make empty claims like "I'm not homophobic, but ..." In fact, that very statement almost inevitably precedes some outrageously homophobic idea. LOL!

The trip about the nasty, old overweight body is also very revealing, as others noted. For those of you who condone the scorn towards his physical appearance, and especially to those of you who encouraged even more of it, may you be so lucky as to live long enough that your own old, wrinkled ass might hobble into a locker room to be sneered at by the latest generation of hardbodies.

I always get a ton of shit when I post on this topic, so flame away! I can hardly wait. But at least be fair enough to give me credit for this: Everyone can agree that locker room harassment is uncool and needs to stop.

gay people can be the biggest of hypocrites--"respect us even though we are disrespectful; accept us even though we aren't accepting; don't judge us even though we judge..." the list goes on.

And sometimes we can be our own worst enemies, can't we, BigLittleMan? Sometimes the hatred we have for each other can dwarf the condescending and hostile way some straight people look at us. Several straight posters at least had the token politeness to note that it is a minority of gay guys who engage in the criticized behavior. I think you used the broadest brush yet to make it seem like this really is a "gay problem." No wonder we struggle to get ahead when we are so busy turning our knives on each other.
 

fortiesfun

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gay people can be the biggest of hypocrites--"respect us even though we are disrespectful; accept us even though we aren't accepting; don't judge us even though we judge..." the list goes on.

Way to take a particular incident and turn it into one big homophobic generalization. Your bigotry is award-winning.