Locker Room Double Standard

[snoozan]

First, Matthew, thank you, thank you, thank you. What an eloquent post. You said everything I was feeling but couldn't get into words.

I argued with the guy, buck naked in the shower room, but when I noticed that he was staring at my cock a lot I knew I wouldn't win; I think the security guard was gay too.

You know, reading this line, maybe everyone ISN'T looking at your cock. Maybe the problem is you assuming everyone is looking at it. Maybe you want to think everyone is looking at it. This is sheer paranoia and homophbia on your part. You're saying that the only reason the security guard wouldn't listen to you is because he was gay and naturally would not side with the side of truth and justice. Bullshit. Do you really think the vast majority of gay guys LIKE trolls and would discount your story because it's gay versus straight?

I bet you wouldn't have even blushed if it was a woman looking at your body and your cock. And I'm sure when you go out to bars, you do the same thing, use stupid pickup lines, try to hit on girls, etc. Not all of them want that attention, just like you.

Though, I think you do want the attention. Your righteous indignation is transparent.

 

[bigmuscles_averagecock]

To tell you the truth, I'm not surprised. I didn't write the first post in order to get others' opinions on the matter, although they were expected and welcome; I wrote it to hopefully stop the one, maybe two other gay guys out there on this site who may find such "trolling" behavior perfectly appropriate from acting on their desires. I expected my use of the word "faggot" to draw criticism, but I didn't expect it to be the focus of much of the criticism.

I'm a straight guy. I'm quiet. I was raised to handle things on my own, as society dictates men should. I'm tolerant. When I say I made a lot of friends who are gay in college, I mean my roommate for two years was openly gay and he is still like a brother to me.

So to address some issues brought up:

- Why should I have had to leave the locker room? I was being victimized.

- I have balls, two big hairy ones, and I'm not about to run to some security guard to handle my problems for me. I apologize for the crudeness, but what mature man would seek help in such a situation?

- My physical fitness does not mean that I was safe from harm. He could have grabbed my cock by surprise, and even though I could easily defend myself physically from rape, I should not have to fear sexual assault, which his grabbing of my cock would be. I don't want to have to live with the thought that some gay guy touched my body, physically using me for his own sexual pleasure, at my expense.

- I didn't speak up earlier cause I didn't want to dignify his behavior with a response. Actions speak louder than words. I wanted it to be over. I shouldn't have to acknowledge improper behavior towards me. I have the right to ignore it. I actually also have the right not to experience it.

- After my first verbal warning to him was not abided, how do I know he won't get physical next? As a man, naked under a showerhead, if I feel threatened I'm going to use whatever is at my disposal, be it a threat of violence or a derogatory comment that shows hate towards his behavior. Yes, it gave him the ammunition he needed, but a gay guy who acts the way that man did is the reason why the word "faggot" has become derogatory - it's a word that appropriately describes a gay man who acts as he did.

- One member thought I was paranoid and that I think everybody is staring at my cock. I'm not paranoid and I'm not Colombo - I can follow someone's line of sight. When I'm pissed off at another man, I'll stare him down and make eye contact and if I see him look down at my crotch and let his eyes linger there when he thinks I'm not looking, I know he's staring at my cock.

I didn't go to the gym today and won't have the time tomorrow. I don't know what I will do, if anything, when I go on Thursday.

I just wish nudity and sex were acknowledged by everyone to be mutually exclusive in a locker room setting.

I apologize for the defensive tone.

 

[mindseye]

After my first verbal warning to him was not abided, how do I know he won't get physical next? As a man, naked under a showerhead, if I feel threatened I'm going to use whatever is at my disposal, be it a threat of violence or a derogatory comment that shows hate towards his behavior. Yes, it gave him the ammunition he needed, but a gay guy who acts the way that man did is the reason why the word "faggot" has become derogatory - it's a word that appropriately describes a gay man who acts as he did.

Yuck. Yuck.

I haven't chimed in to this thread yet, but this paragraph is grossly ignorant and homophobic.

The word "faggot" hasn't become derogatory -- it has always been derogatory. And it never appropriately describes any gay man, no matter how he acts. Your language didn't show "hate towards his behavior"; it showed hate toward his orientation. You could have called him a predator, or a stalker, or a chickenhawk, or a creep, but you called him a faggot instead.

 

[bigmuscles_averagecock]

Well bro, I do apologize if I offended you, but that's how my gay roommate defined the word "faggot" to me when I asked him about what words he hated (I was actually asking him if he had ever been called the n-word: he's black and we were talking about racial discrimination before we segued off topic). For a similar take on a derogatory word, see Chris Rock's definition of the n-word - which he uses to describe black men who misrepresent, through crime or drug use, all black people, which thereby perpetuates stereotypes.

Yuck. Yuck.

I haven't chimed in to this thread yet, but this paragraph is grossly ignorant and homophobic.

The word "faggot" hasn't become derogatory -- it has always been derogatory. And it never appropriately describes any gay man, no matter how he acts. Your language didn't show "hate towards his behavior"; it showed hate toward his orientation. You could have called him a predator, or a stalker, or a chickenhawk, or a creep, but you called him a faggot instead.

 

[mindseye]

Have you ever called a straight person a faggot?

 

[bigmuscles_averagecock]

Embarrassingly, I must admit I have, when I was a teenager. I haven't, until yesterday, since my roommate told me he was gay - makes you see things differently.

Have you ever called a straight person a faggot?

 

[dannymawg]

Sorry to drag you into this bigbull...

Posted in the Michael Richards/Kramer thread: http://www.lpsg.org/et-cetera-et-cetera/38343-kramer-loses-it.html#post627139

Timely? Add the Chris Rock line-stepping/Richards rage to the "faggot" fire?

 

[rob_just_rob]

While I can't condone the use of homophobic slurs (or racial, cultural or other slurs), I can understand how they can slip out in somewhat extreme situations like this one.

You wanted to impress on him that you wanted to be left alone. He had followed you from room to room and propositioned you once already - and been rebuffed more than once. More forceful words were called for when he propositioned you a second time. You could have chosen more temperate, pithy words than you actually used, but then, you weren't really in a position to carefully consider what you said.

I have to admit I have called people worse things when I was being persistently hassled. Not something to be proud of - but your response was, in my opinion, more or less proportionate.

(incidentally, I personally would find being called "cake" pretty damn offensive)

Where you went wrong in this thread was attempting to defend the use of the word in question. In clear-headed moments (like now, presumably), it's really indefensible. In the heat of the moment, when agitated, offended and feeling uncomfortable or threatened, people will use strong language and say whatever they think will unmistakeably get their point across.

 

[bigmuscles_averagecock]

True, I did get defensive. Point taken man. Thanks

Where you went wrong in this thread was attempting to defend the use of the word in question. In clear-headed moments (like now, presumably), it's really indefensible. In the heat of the moment, when agitated, offended and feeling uncomfortable or threatened, people will use strong language and say whatever they think will unmistakeably get their point across.

 

[fratpack]

Unwanted, uninvited and unwelcomed attention from another person is offensive in the very least. This other guy clearly was in the wrong in his actions and words. Could another approach been taken by you...in hindsight you may have handled this situation differently. However his constant and extreme crudeness may have set you off.
The important thing is what you, yourself have learned, above and beyond what may have been said in this thread.
Every day thousands of men and women are victims of unwanted sexual advances. It is in taking away their power that they become diminished. I know what it is like to be the victim of a sex crime and I can understand your frustration and anger. Sexual predators need to be outed and if it takes letting other gym members knowing about this guy, by letting them know what happened to you then so be it. Don't laugh and point and don't do it in anger just do it as a hey guys let me clue you in on this guy. Hopefully this pervert will move on.
You go to the gym for your own reasons and no one but no one should infringe on your rights.
May advice may not the best or perfect but I can understand and hope you will take something positive from this.
I wish you well.
Frat.

 

[snoozan]

The real double standard here is that this shit happens to women all the time, so much so that by the time we're 15 or so, we learn to brush it off, ignore it, and get on with our lives. Usually, this behavior is chalked up to men not being able to get the hint, not having social skills, being persistent and manly, when a girl says no she's playing coy, etc. etc.

I've had so many men stare at my tits I don't even notice it anymore.

Now that the tables are turned and it's a straight male getting hit on it's "sexual predation" and "victimization"? Please.

 

[D_that's a tall order]

here is my shower story. So I was showering after a workout at a college gym in NJ. It was a gang shower situation, lots of shower heads and no privacy. But no big deal, I am fine with being seen. (Nice body on you too, bro). Well this older, out of shape dude comes in and picks a shower head on the opposite side of the shower. He just seems a bit creepy, and every time I happen to glance his direction, his hands go right to his tiny little dick and start to play with it. He clearly wants me to see it. And I don't want him to win the situation, so I just try to ignore it and finish my shower. But sure enough, every time I turn to rinse my hair or whatever, his hands go right to his cock.

So I finally finish and walk out to my towel. I am drying my hair, towel over my head, but under the towel I can see his feet come walking up right in fornt of me. I look out from under the towel and there he is, standing in fornt of me and playing with his dick, looking up at me (I am 6'5"). I look at him and say "I think it's CLEAN." He turned and walked away pretty fast. Never bothered me again.

 

[dcwrestlefan]

i'm sensing some regret from reading your posts big avg. if someone calls me a faggot and means it deep down inside with hatred, it does hurt. but you were using a defense mechanism because of the situation you were handed. if someone stalks me in a locker room and it's not wanted, yeh, i would "let loose".

i'm not detecting you hate gay guys, just the one that wouldn't leave you alone. legitimate. just lose the F word next time. ;-)

 

[B_dxjnorto]

Gay guys are still guys. Know what I mean? They can be the most creepy and still think they are attractive.

Think of how you'd feel if and when you get old and ugly and you are hitting on some woman and she is contemptuous.

WilsonStreet handled it better.

 

[fortiesfun]

I'm a straight guy. I'm quiet. I was raised to handle things on my own, as society dictates men should. I'm tolerant.

- I have balls, two big hairy ones, and I'm not about to run to some security guard to handle my problems for me. I apologize for the crudeness, but what mature man would seek help in such a situation?

I apologize for the defensive tone.

While I appreciate that everyone is trying to cool this thread, and while I continue to condemn creepy trolls who can't take a hint, there is too much here that still needs to be addressed. From the university's perspective the problem is not confined to using the word "Faggot." It is the much greater possibility of senseless violence because some hot head takes matters into his own hands. As someone rather familiar with university judicial procedures, let me say that "tough guys" are far greater problems that old trolls, especially when their anger issues dangerously combine with homophobia.

In two separate places in his post, (quoted above) the OP pointedly says that becoming violent is the what society expects of men. It does no such thing. Any mature man would recognize that. Only pretty immature men feel so childishly threatened in this situation and feel they have to take care of it with a big macho act. (Almost everybody feels disgusted, but all that crap about how the old guy might have harmed him by grabbing his dick? Come on... )

The security guard handled the situation absolutely correctly, which is to ascertain that of the two problems he had on his hands, a troll and an insecure hot-head, the latter had far more potential for causing future problems in the lockerroom and needed to be dealt with far more firmly. (It may be that the guard was gay. That would certainly help him recognize homophobia for what it is faster. But, like others here, I doubt it. There are too many signs that the OP equates his masculinity with his genitals, and that he doesn't feel that great about either.)

I didn't write the first post in order to get others' opinions on the matter, although they were expected and welcome; I wrote it to hopefully stop the one, maybe two other gay guys out there on this site who may find such "trolling" behavior perfectly appropriate from acting on their desires.

I guess we are supposed to be grateful for this public service, but all in all I'm not seeing anyone here promote or defend trolling. Feels to me like maybe OP ought to concentrate on his own part in this or he'll end up getting thrown out of his gym, and possibly the university, because he didn't learn anything when he had the chance.

 

[musclebare9]

Dude you are way too messed up in the head.

 

[rob_just_rob]

Now that the tables are turned and it's a straight male getting hit on it's "sexual predation" and "victimization"? Please.

Well, I for one have never stalked anyone, have always taken "no" for an answer, and never made a crude proposition to a woman I just met. (Another perk of low self-confidence in my youth, I guess )

So... you're telling me I'm not entitled to be offended or upset when I am the victim of sexual predation or crude, unwanted advances, because I happen to be a straight male? Or are you saying that nobody is entitled to be offended?

 

[capt. nemo]

Matthew, fortiesfun and Snoozan: those were all really thoughtful and intelligent posts!

It may be a real drag when a troll is cruising you nasty and hard, but it doesn't make you the "vicitm of a sex crime" as fratpack seems to suggest in his commiserating post. In fact, I don't think it makes you the victim of ANYTHING, really, other than your own homophobia. (Being the "victim" of a fat dude with really bad manners is stretching the definition of the word.) I know that sounds callous. But homophobia is a thing more complex that a simple idea about gays being OK or gays being evil. It pervades a lot of social discourses and psychic spaces without ever being recognized. With a different frame of mind, being cruised nasty and hard by an ugly troll can be kind of funny, really.

I'm too, too tired of hearing straight guys complain about getting cruised in the locker-room. In fact, I wonder to what extent, among straight guys, it's at least as important to declare your disgust with being cruised as it is to be actually disgusted. This might explain why locker-room or shower scenarios seem so iconic, and are spoken of so regularly, almost ritually. I wonder how many guys avoid the showers not because they are afraid of being looked at by a gay man, but because they are afraid of what their fellow straight men will think about them if they aren't concerned about being seen and possibly admired by a gay guy. Muscle refers to this phenomenon in his initial post. The other dudes warn him about the gays in the sauna, but Muscle is so open-minded and gay-friendly that he can brush off their concerns. Like "having a lot of gay friends," it exonerates him ab initio.

Which brings me to my question. What's with all the gay dudes on here offering their heartfelt support without (apparently) seeing any problems in Muscle's knee-jerk homophobic response to the troll, in his telling of the tale (with it's broad hint of a gay conspiracy), or in his subsequent posts?? Now THAT freaks me out.

 

[slate_australis]

It's unpleasant to get unwanted attention from anyone - and when a person pushes it to the limit of invasion of personal space - then you have every right to complain and be angry.

I think the use of the 'f' word was a catalyst for his complaining - but it's natural when you feel threatened to lash out.

 

[BigA]

I think the straight men's views are under-represented here. I don't think you're out of line in raising your fist dude. Since we're talking double standards i think we'd all agree a woman can smack a man if he's really inappropriate, but if a man threatens to hit a gay man, he's "insecure" and "hot-headed" among other things?