Locker Room Double Standard

[fortiesfun]

i find it very interesting how certain people are taking offense to this thread very personally, almost as if it were about them. hmm...

what's that shakespeare line "the lady doth protest too much methinks"?

Do I take homophobia personally? You bet your ass, I do. Do I protest too much? I'm sure, given the stupidity of your original remark, that is where you'd like to shift the focus. Since my sexuality is already established here on the board, however, and everybody already knows this "lady" is gay, you are going to have to do much better than that if you hope to deflect attention from the fact you made the single most offensive and bigoted remark in this entire thread:

gay people can be the biggest of hypocrites--"respect us even though we are disrespectful; accept us even though we aren't accepting; don't judge us even though we judge..." the list goes on.

Given the complete ignorance displayed here, I'd suggest my response was restrained.

The irony here, of course, is that I am actually a professor of Shakespeare. I happen to know what that line means in context. Not to mention that I can use capital letters.

 

[BigLittleMan]

pye, i truly fucking love you. hot and level-headed. and a great ass.

 

[rob_just_rob]

I never said that you (or the OP) are not entitled to be offended. Getting cruised or hit on when you don't want to be by someone you're not even remotely attracted to is annoying and can be offensive.

However, my problem is using the terms "victimization" and "sexual predation" to describe something that simply offended the OPs sensibilities (gay guy and old and fat). In order to be a victim or prey, the person doing the victimization and predation has to be able to somehow overpower you (in this case, physically). From what I can tell, this was not the case.

Using these very charged terms to describe this incident only serves to weaken the real meaning of what sexual predation is. The OP was in no real danger of being molested or raped.

I asked my husband about this last night because he's very straight and has gotten hit on by gay men a lot. His response was that the times it's happened, he said he wasn't interested once or twice, and if he had to, walked away and let it go. Like me, he just didn't see the big deal. It's not like the guy has you physically restrained and is trying to play with your dick. All he did was look and say something once.

Twice, actually.

BTW, the OPs story about moving from room to room may have been misinterpreted by our troll as trying to find somewhere private where they could tryst. The OP never said in all those times moving back and forth, "I'm not interested, leave me alone." Instead the OP got angry, told him to fuck off and soon after physically threatened the troll.

As I said before, I've had to deal with annoying, unwanted attention from nasty ass men my whole life. It's offensive, but it's not the big drama that it's being made into on this thread by many of you, straight and gay alike. I still assert that this is an issue of the OPs aesthetics and homophobia. If this had been a hot girl and not a old gay guy doing this, he'd instead be posting on here about this awesome blowjob he got in the locker room at the gym and how hot the whole thing was.

I refuse to get up in arms about this because it's just not the big deal that it's being made out to be. Annoying creepy and rude? Yes. Sexual predation and victimization? No way.

Snooz

I cannot agree with you. Being nude in a shower, alone, can be a vulnerable feeling. And people can be victimized by someone who is physically less powerful than they are. Happens every day.

Moreover, I don't think this is about the unwanted suitor being old and unattractive. That may be part of it, but I think the more significant issue was the unwanted suitor's pursuit of the OP from room to room and back again, making a crude come-on, being rebuffed, and making ANOTHER crude come-on.

If the unwanted suitor had made a non-crude come-on - perhaps even two - been rebuffed, and then let it drop, I would agree with you. Otherwise, you're legitimizing sexual harassment. I believe that the OP has the same right to feel victimized as a woman who is in the same situation. If you consider this sort of activity merely annoying and not victimization, congratulations on having a thicker skin than I - and I daresay, most - do.

 

[Matthew]

I cannot agree with you. Being nude in a shower, alone, can be a vulnerable feeling. And people can be victimized by someone who is physically less powerful than they are. Happens every day.

Moreover, I don't think this is about the unwanted suitor being old and unattractive. That may be part of it, but I think the more significant issue was the unwanted suitor's pursuit of the OP from room to room and back again, making a crude come-on, being rebuffed, and making ANOTHER crude come-on.

If the unwanted suitor had made a non-crude come-on - perhaps even two - been rebuffed, and then let it drop, I would agree with you. Otherwise, you're legitimizing sexual harassment. I believe that the OP has the same right to feel victimized as a woman who is in the same situation. If you consider this sort of activity merely annoying and not victimization, congratulations on having a thicker skin than I - and I daresay, most - do.

I don't know, rob. He wasn't alone in the shower, he said there were witnesses who talked to the security guard. And to victimize someone physically stronger, you have to have some kind of power over them. It's not like this was his boss or something. I've been in his position more than once (although no one has offered to eat my cake). I would definitely have been annoyed by this guy and probably would have said something. But I honestly can't truly see myself feeling threatened by it.

I guess I do think that a physical power aspect to harassment can raise its degree from nuisance to threat. And because of that, I think women are much, much more likely to experience that type of threat than, say, I am -- and I'm no muscle guy.

But none of that means this guys' behavior was not obnoxious or didn't merit some consequences. The question is which ones.

 

[mister_y]

You can complaint about him, that he sexually abused you or something. But I don't think there is much you can do. These kind of pathetic lonely gay-grandpa's wont dissapear from earth just like that. It's part a part of public showering, like its not smart for a pretty girl to walk in some parks in the middle of the night.
If it's happeneds again just go the security or something.

Sidenote:
In The Netherlands, circumcised people are really in the minority! Im kinda suprised it's a big issue on this forum, and in the USA. Im not used to that.

 

[rob_just_rob]

I don't know, rob. He wasn't alone in the shower, he said there were witnesses who talked to the security guard. And to victimize someone physically stronger, you have to have some kind of power over them. It's not like this was his boss or something. I've been in his position more than once (although no one has offered to eat my cake). I would definitely have been annoyed by this guy and probably would have said something. But I honestly can't truly see myself feeling threatened by it.

Can a woman carrying a gun not be victimized, then?

I personally feel threatened when someone I don't know starts making crude, unwanted advances. I wouldn't know how to respond to someone who was following me around, offering to wash my genitals, and not taking no for an answer. Sure, maybe if it came to a fight, I'd win it, but I wouldn't want to have to wrestle with a horny nude guy in a gym shower. The thought of possibly having to do that is pretty disturbing, and I have no problem with admitting that I feel threatened by the idea of that.

I guess I do think that a physical power aspect to harassment can raise its degree from nuisance to threat. And because of that, I think women are much, much more likely to experience that type of threat than, say, I am -- and I'm no muscle guy.

But none of that means this guys' behavior was not obnoxious or didn't merit some consequences. The question is which ones.

I think you're definining "victimize" too narrowly. A person can be victimized by someone shouting slurs at them, by someone who vandalizes their property, or by someone who, by his or her actions, makes their living or recreational environment intolerable. This is called a "poisoned environment" in HR-speak when it occurs in the workplace. The OP's situation seems to fall into the latter category.

And as I have said, some people have thick skins, and some don't. That doesn't mean that crude behaviour (persistent crude behaviour, repeated in the face of rejection, as I have pointed out) isn't victimizing.

Men can be sexually harassed and victimized. Period.

As I have said before, the OP's choice of language and cocked fist were excessive, but he was in a position where his immediate goal was to make the harasser go away, and didn't have time to choose his words or actions carefully. What I am try to communicate in this post and my previous post is that just because this sort of thing "happens all the time" to women, it's not acceptable when it happens to men, too. It isn't acceptable when it happens to women OR men.

 

[baseball99]

i find it kind of strange that some of the same people that say boys and men need to toughen up and shower nude and not be protected by society bc thats reality (blah blah blah) are the same people ranting and raving how mean and out of place the OP was.....the title of this thread is appropriate to many of the posts in this thread too

I dont think the OP overreacted and I dont think he should be jumped on to choose his words more carefully.....the other guy in the shower caused the situation and he should have been the one to be more careful instigating the situation

 

[NCbear]

- Why should I have had to leave the locker room? I was being victimized.

- I have balls, two big hairy ones, and I'm not about to run to some security guard to handle my problems for me. I apologize for the crudeness, but what mature man would seek help in such a situation?

Bigmuscles,

You should have left the locker room so you could get to the security guard first. I wasn't saying you should have left with your metaphorical tail between your legs. Nothing weak about it--regardless of how you and BigLittleMan took it.

Of course, what others have suggested you might say might have worked well, followed by getting into your clothes and going to make a report.

Are you still seeing this guy trying to look at you and follow you around? I hope not. But if so, please at least consider some of the very good advice you've been given on this thread.

Take it easy,

NCbear

 

[baseball99]

I dont think he should have run and got security.....or run to mommy and daddy for that matter either. Raising his fist is aggressive yeh.....but no more aggressive in my opinion than the other guy constantly following him around and mind-fucking him.

Aggression is part of human nature and people who deny that are dumb. Should violence be used to solve all problems, no of course not, but fighting, competition, etc are all parts of nature.

Its good to see BMAC stuck up for himself bc now the guy will probably never do it again to him. BMAC didnt victimize anyone.....these boards are so hypocritical at times

 

[capt. nemo]

I dont think he should have run and got security.....or run to mommy and daddy for that matter either. Raising his fist is aggressive yeh.....but no more aggressive in my opinion than the other guy constantly following him around and mind-fucking him.

Aggression is part of human nature and people who deny that are dumb. Should violence be used to solve all problems, no of course not, but fighting, competition, etc are all parts of nature.

Its good to see BMAC stuck up for himself bc now the guy will probably never do it again to him. BMAC didnt victimize anyone.....these boards are so hypocritical at times

Methinks this is a slippery argument... First you more or less equated the aggression of a heavy cruise with the aggression of both threatening to punch and using the word faggot, saying that one good turn deserves another. It's cool because aggression and competition are just a normal part of life, right? Many have stepped in to argue persuasively that the (implicit or veiled) violence of the troll's actions is less than the (implicit or veiled) violence of the OP's actions. But even if we grant their equivalence, a problem arises.
You also think that the aggressive cruising was WRONG, and this seems to me to be kind of arbitrary on your part, given the way you invoke the law of the jungle to defend the OP. Should every straight guy be prepared to bend over for any gay guy who is bigger than him? Aggression is a part of life, dude. You said so yourself... But that's probably not what you want. (Or maybe it is, I dunno...)

Anyway, given that aggression is normal.... Whoa! I'm mind-fucking you right now, deep and hard in your tight ass, you hot boy-bitch. Sure, you can call me faggot. It's a normal response. Anyways, it kind of turns me on. Hehe. I'm just kidding, guys. It's a JOKE. REALLY.

 

[emu]

After my workout I enter the shower and it's obvious that this 50 or so year old, potbellied, double-earringed gay guy is blatantly staring at me. I don't even get to lathering up and I can't take it anymore. I turn off the shower, grab my towel and go into the sauna. Less than a minute later he enters the sauna, sits across from me and continues sizing me up. I can stand it for a couple minutes, then I go back to the shower. He follows me back. I wet my face then go back to the sauna. He follows me back. I leave right away and go back to the shower, hoping he catches the hint. He comes into the shower room a minute or so later. I'm already partly lathered up, so I suck it up and ignore him as he starts to shower under the showerhead right next to me, still staring at me. I rinse off and start cleaning under my foreskin before I wash my hair, ignoring him, when I hear him say "Can I help you with that?". I say "Fuck off man" and move to the showerhead one more away from him. He then says "I wanna eat that cake" and I turn to him with my fist at my shoulder and say "Fuck off, faggot!". He turns off his showerhead and leaves while I stare at him with my fist at my shoulder. I start washing my hair when a minute or so later a security guard enters the shower room and asks me if I threatened another guy in the shower. I said that he threatened me first and that he was sexually harrassing me. The other two guys in the shower at the time came over to talk to the security guard too and backed me up. The fuck-up security guard ignores me and those guys, saying that the university has strict anti-hate rules and that if there are any more reports about me my gym membership will be revoked. I argued with the guy, buck naked in the shower room, but when I noticed that he was staring at my cock a lot I knew I wouldn't win; I think the security guard was gay too. I finally say it won't happen again, he leaves, I wash my hair, get dressed and leave.
.

dude I would be pissed, would have done the same thing, prob would actually punched the fucker. that is pure bullshit. gay or straight if someone does that to you, they deserved to get their ass beat and lawsuit slapped on them.....

ridiculous :eek13:


E

 

[Snozzle]

Were he a "hunk," I'd have felt less threatened. Why? Cause this ugly old guy thinking he has a shot with a straight guy who, setting modesty aside for a second, is quite muscular and referred to as attractive - that guy being so deluded to think he'd get something out of me makes me think he's a psycho and capable of anything.

Nah, he's just a man. He's like those strait guys who imagine that every gay guy is after them, just the other way up.

 

[baseball99]

misread a post

 

[baseball99]

Methinks this is a slippery argument... First you more or less equated the aggression of a heavy cruise with the aggression of both threatening to punch and using the word faggot, saying that one good turn deserves another. It's cool because aggression and competition are just a normal part of life, right? Many have stepped in to argue persuasively that the (implicit or veiled) violence of the troll's actions is less than the (implicit or veiled) violence of the OP's actions. But even if we grant their equivalence, a problem arises.
You also think that the aggressive cruising was WRONG, and this seems to me to be kind of arbitrary on your part, given the way you invoke the law of the jungle to defend the OP. Should every straight guy be prepared to bend over for any gay guy who is bigger than him? Aggression is a part of life, dude. You said so yourself... But that's probably not what you want. (Or maybe it is, I dunno...)

Anyway, given that aggression is normal.... Whoa! I'm mind-fucking you right now, deep and hard in your tight ass, you hot boy-bitch. Sure, you can call me faggot. It's a normal response. Anyways, it kind of turns me on. Hehe. I'm just kidding, guys. It's a JOKE. REALLY.

I agree with you, it is a slippery slope. But if you're going to do something, have the balls to stand up and accept the consequences.....not run to security when someone one-ups you. It shows how big of a pussy that guy really was

 

[Gillette]

Seeking management or security isn't a sign of weakness, it's a sign of intelligence. The rules of the jungle don't apply very well outside of the jungle. This is a highly litigious society (remember the lawsuit about hot coffee?) So now that Tarzan has shed his loincloth and donned a suit he should learn accept that he is no longer the king of beasts. Physical aggression outside the arena is no longer a cool way to display your superiority, now is the time for the tactician.

If you're the victim of stalking behavior the way to prevent future episodes while retaining your territory is to seek the authority responsible for your jungle/gym.

In other words, grow up.

I don't condemn the OP for how this ended up but I don't applaud his actions either. I have a hard time supporting any form of testosterone poisoning. I would hope that in future BMAC would deal with a situation like this one sooner instead of letting it reach a point where his temper was so eroded.

 

[baseball99]

Should he have mentioned something to managment eventually.....yes. But he shouldnt have had to rush out of the shower, get changed quickly and go to management, no.

It also wasnt used as a sign of superiority.....it was a sign of "look you cant take the bloody hint, leave me alone".....I would have a major problem with it if the OP did it just bc of how the guy looked or if he did it just bc the other guy was gay.....but thats not the case, the other guy was aggressive in his approach and was inappropriate.....the other guy was wrong, thats pretty much the end of the discussion and good for BMAC

 

[hungthickdc]

This is much ado about nothing. The creepy guy in the shower is disgusting. I have very strong feelings about unwanted sexual advances... especially in public places. I think people that hang out in public bathrooms and showers are lame and pathetic. I also think that bigmuscles should not have confronted the guy. He should have let the proper authority deal with the situation. In my experience confrontations usually result in an unwanted outcome. I think he let his anger get the best of him.

 

[arty]

One guy asked me in the changing rooms of my gym what I was feeding my cock on I said it gets plenty thrusting exercise with my good lady or one remark like blimey is it still growing and can you give me the recipe.

 

[B_dxjnorto]

One guy asked me in the changing rooms of my gym what I was feeding my cock on I said it gets plenty thrusting exercise with my good lady or one remark like blimey is it still growing and can you give me the recipe.

Good job Arty. That was very graceful, or is that gracious?

 

[Matthew]

Can a woman carrying a gun not be victimized, then?

Of course she can. The analogy would be that if she were sexually harassing me, her actions could then be a threat to me, but if she didn't have a gun, they likely would not.

I can see being annoyed, creeped out, offended, even disgusted. But I think to rise to the level of a threat, there has to be danger involved. I've had a few 'unwanted locker room buddies.' I wouldn't count them under the times I've felt threatened.

I personally feel threatened when someone I don't know starts making crude, unwanted advances. I wouldn't know how to respond to someone who was following me around, offering to wash my genitals, and not taking no for an answer.

In the situation he described, I would say stop once, if he didn't I would say 'stop or I will report you', and if he still didn't I would report him. Yes, I would be pissed off and incovenienced by having to leave the shower early to report him.

The "law of the jungle" mentality that says anything goes as a response is the same mentality that led this "troll" to believe it was OK for him to act as offensively as he did in the shower. I know you're not endorsing that like some are, Rob.

I think you're definining "victimize" too narrowly. A person can be victimized by someone shouting slurs at them, by someone who vandalizes their property, or by someone who, by his or her actions, makes their living or recreational environment intolerable. This is called a "poisoned environment" in HR-speak when it occurs in the workplace. The OP's situation seems to fall into the latter category.

I could split hairs on the definition, but in essence I agree that all those examples are undesirable. And I don't disagree that a person deserves to have consequences for acting as this guy did. It is not OK to leer and proposition random, uninterested people in the shower or anywhere.