London Riots Burn: Baby Burn!

[dandelion]

It rather remains to be seen what exactly happened. At the time a large crowd wanted to know exactly this. I have heard a witness saying the man had a gun but not in a condition to be fired. Someone else said it was wrapped in a sock. Clearly, someone said he fired it and this has been denied. If it was a policeman who claimed it had been fired, this might explain why he was shot, but equally explain why everyone was upset about it since he did not. Whatever the law might say about this, I would myself make a distinction between anyone possessing a gun and using it. If the law doesnt make this distinction then again it is an ass.

Colour is always an issue, The police point to statistics showing a coloured person is more likely to be engaged in a criminal activity than a white one to justify their ongoing policy of stopping and searching coloured people more often than white. Some very respectable coloured people who have come from or had business in deprived areas have recounted how frequently they have been stopped throughout their lives. The statistics are correct as far as they go. They reflect the fact that coloured people are much more likely than white ones to live in deprived areas, though in those areas they are no more likely than whites to be engaged in crime. The overall result though is that statistically a random coloured person is much more likely to be a criminal than a random white. This has called quite a bit of tension over the years.

 

[B_chubsy1]

Dandelion, the fact that you use the the word 'coloured' to describe people from ethnic minority backgrounds means that you have little or no understanding of their 'plight' as to use this word is considered offensive. Furthemore, to suggest the rioters were not to blame is plain irresponsible. Are you really suggesting someone else is to blame?
If there was some genuine social injustice involved maybe we could understand but I bet if you checked all the rioters, none of them would be in ragged clothes with worn out shoes, they were all dressed in designer gear with blackberry phones or iPhones and were stealing high quality clothing or tv's, where is the social deprivation statement in this?

 

[dandelion]

well, what word do you fancy? It wont be long before someone decides that one is offensive and invents a new one. I used it as Jason did. I dare say he saw someone else use it. Are you saying some people are sensitive about their racial designation, might even start a riot if someone from an ethnic group was shot dead by inevitably white police?

How many people do you know who dress in ragged clothes these days? I do, but then I shop at oxfam and dont care. Oxfam and all those other charity shops are crawling with cheap second hand clothes. You reckon designer clothes mean someone has the benefit of everything modern society has to offer? You reckon that is the measure of having made it nowadays? These people are stealing trainers and breaking into pound shops. People raiding clothing shops which are on every high street however bad the area?

 

[Jason]

The preferred descriptors in British English are Black, Asian, Chinese and Mixed - these are the terms on our census and other official forms. Terms such as "people of colour" and "coloured" do not have the pejorative force that they seem to have in US English - indeed many Black, Asian and Mixed would themselves use such terms (though probably not Chinese).

A decade ago there was evidence of institutional racism in the UK police force. That racism has been tackled to the extent that the UK police can demonstrate that it is not institutionally racist. There is significant representation of ethnic minority communities - there is under-representation still, but fast falling. While there is room for further progress the concept of a white, racist police force is not tenable today.

 

[dandelion]

Oh i think you will find it is tenable, and people do hold it. And the people holding it, justified or not, are from the racial minorities. It isnt simply a racial thing, a white mate of mine years ago said he got stopped from time to time by police while driving, because in the neighbourhood where he was doing the driving people his age just didnt own cars. White youths in such an area might well get the idea the police were picking on them, and they were. The police reckoned any white youth driving a car in that area must have stolen it. Who would not get upset when faced by a police force which automatically assumes you have stolen anything you actually own?

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

The BBC news just reported that a women (with 2 children) who slept through the riots in Manchester whose flatmate gave her a single pair of looted shorts has been given a 5 month custodial sentence for a first offence.

The notion that the British legal system is capable of dispensing justice in the aftermath of all this is totally discredited by stories like this (and more and more are coming to light). If you are poor (or just lower class) and you break the law, woe betide you, is the message here.

Every magistrates' court has a bench for visitors. I recommend all UK citizens to go to a magistrates' court and see what is happening. I do not believe the story reported above - someone has got it wrong. But if it should be correct there is a clear case for appeal and on the facts stated the appeal must be sustained.

Magistrates work within a framework for sentencing which is available to anyone who wants to trawl through the materials. It does not permit a custodial sentence for a case such as the one described. If the three magistrates plus the court clerk have got it wrong to the extent this story suggests then the magistrates may face suspension and the clerk loss of job.

Just as a postscript to this, the woman was freed on appeal. Her sentence wasn't reduced she was simply let go.


This was just one of dozens, perhaps hundreds of stories of lower courts handing down absurdly vindictive sentences (pandering to the baying of the rightwing media) to people viewed as lower class scum because these courts can rely on higher courts to overturn the convictions.

As if the spectacle of the riots themselves weren't disgraceful enough now the British courts are shaming themselves too.

 

[Jason]

A useful postscript - so the system got it right at second go.

 

[B_crackoff]

I told you I was prescient.:wink:

She'll probably be out in 2 weeks.

I guarantee you that there will be many appeals, costing the state a fortune, & then inevitably, successful compensation claims, as soon as the dust settles, leaving rich judges & lawyers laughing & gambolling about on yachts paid for by the taxpayer, safe in the knowledge that if they screw up the system that they created, they can be paid twice!

It's all so horribly predictable.

 

[B_crackoff]

BTW

What did anyone think of David Starkey's comments? He's still getting gip from the usual left wing idolaters of PC.

David Starkey's views on race disgrace the academic world, say historians - Telegraph

Granted he's always controversial, deliberately provocative, in fact, leading people up one path, then coming down another when they are all hot & bothered.

I think his phrase "it's not skin colour, it's culture" identifies that he isn't making any racist point.

David Starkey On Newsnight (Whites Have Become Blacks) - YouTube

That middle class twat who wrote the book on Chavs, was on Breakfast Time talking about it, & was trying to class people being called Chavs as bad as racism - & that Chavs were the true proletariat.

People griping about Chavs was wrong, but Chavs griping against anyone else was fine.

Pure post modern Marx.

I think Emily Maitliss's summation was appalling, & bigoted. 3 middle class lefties vs an upper middle class man - provoking a witch hunt. I don't think he even got time to properly put his point across - it turned into the generic ad hominem attack the PC police always use.

Can't people agree to disagree? This is why PC sucks. George Orwell would be spinning in his grave. When I grew up, thought police was always associated with the Right - now it's most definitely the tool of the Left.

I can't believe they're going to hound him out of public life.

 

[MercyfulFate]

I

BTW

What did anyone think of David Starkey's comments? He's still getting gip from the usual left wing idolaters of PC.

David Starkey's views on race disgrace the academic world, say historians - Telegraph

Granted he's always controversial, deliberately provocative, in fact, leading people up one path, then coming down another when they are all hot & bothered.

I think his phrase "it's not skin colour, it's culture" identifies that he isn't making any racist point.

David Starkey On Newsnight (Whites Have Become Blacks) - YouTube

That middle class twat who wrote the book on Chavs, was on Breakfast Time talking about it, & was trying to class people being called Chavs as bad as racism - & that Chavs were the true proletariat.

People griping about Chavs was wrong, but Chavs griping against anyone else was fine.

Pure post modern Marx.

I think Emily Maitliss's summation was appalling, & bigoted. 3 middle class lefties vs an upper middle class man - provoking a witch hunt. I don't think he even got time to properly put his point across - it turned into the generic ad hominem attack the PC police always use.

Can't people agree to disagree? This is why PC sucks. George Orwell would be spinning in his grave. When I grew up, thought police was always associated with the Right - now it's most definitely the tool of the Left.

I can't believe they're going to hound him out of public life.

The use of "it's culture, not skin color" is used by racist white supremacists in the US. They claim skin color isn't what they hate, but it's an identifier of culture they despise.

 

[dandelion]

I cant say I felt Starkeys argument was particularly coherent, though granted also he hardly had an opportunity to present it carefully and clearly. Fair enough that the underclass has become as white as black, but harder to see his argument that enoch powell was right. Not that I know exactly what powell said, as distinct from the headlines which get quoted. I am not at all convinced that the problem Powell perceived had anything to do with actaul bad behaviour by black immigrants, it was just their strangeness people worried about. I suppose his argument was that a black sub culture has become simply a colourblind sub culture. I dont really think that helps much in solving anything whether he is right or wrong. I dont believe it has anything to do with immigrants (except perhaps that this would be nicer place with a million or two less in it)