Louisiana rolls back The Enlightenment.

B_spiker067

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In the end this is political and a PoS class has to given explaining why science doesn't kill God. Either that or let the nuts send their kids to parochial schools with Federal vouchers.

People can be stupid in this country. That IS their right and for that matter evolution. Let the fittest survive (I simplify).

By your reckoning a Catholic education would get you a long way in this world?

This is testing separation of church and state and I say give the nuts their vouchers.
 
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Guy-jin

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Have you talked to kids graduating from H.S./College who say they are atheists or disbelievers? What is the dominant answer they give as to a reason why they are atheists/disbelievers. For that matter ask ANY atheist/disbeliever and they invariably mention ToE.

The post above better explains that it is the literal interpretation that drives people away. That between choosing 7 days or millions of years they choose millions of years. But the point being they still are atheist/disbelievers. They don't doubt this god or that god, they disbelief that a creator is even required because ToE and Big Bang.

As a 7 year old child I swear I didn't think the world was created in seven days. So I don't think I'm bound to a literal translation of the Bible.

I'm an Atheist.

My reason has nothing to do with the Theory of Evolution.

You state that if you ask any Atheist why he or she is an Atheist, the answer will invariably include Darwin's Theory of Evolution. Quite the contrary. There are countless Theists who believe in Darwin's Theory of Evolution and I'm sure there are Atheists out there who do not believe in it.

I am an Atheist because I do not believe in god(s).

I do not believe in god(s) because I see no compelling evidence in the world around me for one (or any) existing.

All the magnificence of the universe is achieved through natural forces that I do not believe require an anthropomorphic deity to accomplish.

Regardless, that doesn't have anything to do with Darwin's Theory of Evolution. If Lamarck's Theory of Acquired Characteristics were true instead, I'd still be an Atheist. In fact, something like Evolution is completely unrelated to a belief in a deity.

They aren't mutually exclusive, although some individuals, more often Theists than Atheists, will insist that they are.

There is a great irony in your entire argument there.

Good read. Lots to think about and look into.

Here's a little prophesy for you JA:

The world has been warming. The warming has not been proven to be anthropogenic (my opinion, though also held by others). The world will not be able to get it together to cut C02 emissions within the next 8 years to reverse this AnthroGW and yet the world will cool. And in your mind you'll hear me telling you, "I told you so." LPSG bar room banter.

This global warming has been dogmatized and politicized like you wouldn't believe. Science is practiced by humans and their foibles follow.

A silly stance.

Pascal's Wager defeats it every time.
 

B_spiker067

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I'm an Atheist.

My reason has nothing to do with the Theory of Evolution.

You state that if you ask any Atheist why he or she is an Atheist, the answer will invariably include Darwin's Theory of Evolution. Quite the contrary. There are countless Theists who believe in Darwin's Theory of Evolution and I'm sure there are Atheists out there who do not believe in it.

I am an Atheist because I do not believe in god(s).

I do not believe in god(s) because I see no compelling evidence in the world around me for one (or any) existing.

All the magnificence of the universe is achieved through natural forces that I do not believe require an anthropomorphic deity to accomplish.

Regardless, that doesn't have anything to do with Darwin's Theory of Evolution. If Lamarck's Theory of Acquired Characteristics were true instead, I'd still be an Atheist. In fact, something like Evolution is completely unrelated to a belief in a deity.

They aren't mutually exclusive, although some individuals, more often Theists than Atheists, will insist that they are.

There is a great irony in your entire argument there.



A silly stance.

Pascal's Wager defeats it every time.

Guy,

This is a long discussion that goes back to other threads. I think I mentioned Pascal's wager back then.

Regardless, I have no dog in this fight. I offer two political solution to a political problem. The questions is can science literalists realize the world they live in and complain about is political? They can jump up and down all they want and cry, "this isn't science" but it isn't pragmatic.

JA, find a political solution to the problem because otherwise you simply aren't going to browbeat science into them.

Guy, could you explain what exactly was a silly stance, the thought on global warming or the foibles of man found in science?
 
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whatireallywant

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I was never that fond of Dawkins' writings. The Selfish Gene was part of the socio-biology movement concurrent with Thatcher-Reagan revolution in politics and economics whose fruits we are now beginning to reap. As an atheist, I'm embarrased by some of his rantings on religion. The Blind Watchmaker was OK, though, as an explanation of how complexity can arise from simplicity.

I much preferred reading Stephen Jay Gould, he had a more humble approach to biology and evolution. e.g. Life's Grandeur reminded me not to be so dismissive of bacteria, lol.

The book I most regret not buying was a victorian (1880s) family bible on sale in an Exteter antique shop. It was a large book that had the biblical text laid out on the page, with wide margins containing explanatory notes on the historical and cultural circumstances, as then understood, of the writings in the main text. An encycopedia of the bible, if you like. It combined faith and the science of it's time. Four generations of a family had inscribed their names on the title page.

The nearest modern book I've got to that is A History of God by Karen Armstrong.

Same here... I have a real problem with socio-biology particularly the sexism of it. What little of Stephen Jay Gould I've read I have liked though.

When polled, most American Christians would say that the phrase, "God only helps those who helps themselves" is a passage from the Bible. This is particularly telling because nothing could be more anti-Gospel than that. Americans have mixed culture, nationalism and folk religion together and mostly exist in that stew, regardless of where they attend church.

I grew up hearing this...

Of course, I also grew up in one of the fundamentalist churches that really did say that evolutionary biologists had "an agenda to deny God". I even dated a guy once who said that on one of our dates! :eek:

Somehow, even with being around nothing but creationists all my early life, I thought the ToE made sense. Maybe because I read a lot of science books when I was a kid - I was fascinated by it.

Now, I have to admit that I have a similar problem with socio-biology that a lot of fundamentalists have with ToE. But then, I am against both the socio-biologists AND the fundamentalists... they're BOTH sexist! I guess I could be called a gender-egalitarian who accepts the ToE as a biological theory, but that ToE does not sufficiently explain the nuances of human behavior.
 

JustAsking

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I'm an Atheist.

My reason has nothing to do with the Theory of Evolution.

You state that if you ask any Atheist why he or she is an Atheist, the answer will invariably include Darwin's Theory of Evolution. Quite the contrary. There are countless Theists who believe in Darwin's Theory of Evolution and I'm sure there are Atheists out there who do not believe in it.

I am an Atheist because I do not believe in god(s).

I do not believe in god(s) because I see no compelling evidence in the world around me for one (or any) existing.

All the magnificence of the universe is achieved through natural forces that I do not believe require an anthropomorphic deity to accomplish.

Regardless, that doesn't have anything to do with Darwin's Theory of Evolution. If Lamarck's Theory of Acquired Characteristics were true instead, I'd still be an Atheist. In fact, something like Evolution is completely unrelated to a belief in a deity.

They aren't mutually exclusive, although some individuals, more often Theists than Atheists, will insist that they are.

There is a great irony in your entire argument there.

...

I admire yours and others' economy in writing style. Why is my word count 50 times what other people post who are economically saying the same thing.

I want to thank Spiker for putting up with my harangue, so my next statement is not meant to provoke him further.

I want to say that your (Guy-jin's) position on Atheism is one that I have the greatest respect for. It is the most honest and reliable justification for Atheism and believe it or not, I could defend it myself pretty well, except for the fact that I am not an Atheist.

This is why I say that my faith is irrational, and I think your position is very rational. Where I do get defensive, though, is when people say that science disproves God either out of ignorance, or out of what I might call scientific fundamentalism.

My previous post explains why I believe that, since it explains what I think are the limits to empiricism (if you consider science as the ultimate practice of empiricism).

Anyway, my favorite Dawkinism is this (when challenged by a rabid Christian): "Ma'am, whether you know it or not, you and I are both Atheists. It just so happens that I disbelieve in one more God than you do."
 

B_spiker067

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I want to thank Spiker for putting up with my harangue, so my next statement is not meant to provoke him further.

I appreciate your admitting that your tone has been one of haranguing. But, I don't think I've responded in a provoked manner. If I have, could you please show me so that I may better control myself? TIA.

I will also say this, JA. I learn a lot from your postings and so I appreciate them more than any others in this forum. I thank you for the time taken. :0)
 
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JustAsking

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Same here... I have a real problem with socio-biology particularly the sexism of it. What little of Stephen Jay Gould I've read I have liked though.

It was Gould who got me interested in all of this.



I grew up hearing this...

Of course, I also grew up in one of the fundamentalist churches that really did say that evolutionary biologists had "an agenda to deny God". I even dated a guy once who said that on one of our dates! :eek:

Somehow, even with being around nothing but creationists all my early life, I thought the ToE made sense. Maybe because I read a lot of science books when I was a kid - I was fascinated by it.

Now, I have to admit that I have a similar problem with socio-biology that a lot of fundamentalists have with ToE. But then, I am against both the socio-biologists AND the fundamentalists... they're BOTH sexist! I guess I could be called a gender-egalitarian who accepts the ToE as a biological theory, but that ToE does not sufficiently explain the nuances of human behavior.

I approve of your scepticism about socio-biology (not that you need my approval). But one has to take a difference stance on such things as socio-biology. Although a lot of work is being done in areas like this, the opportunity for clear and objective verification is much less than it is for something like molecular biology. So I would classify socio-biology as impressive but speculative. And I agree and so would a lot of evolutionary biologists that ToE does not explain human behavior except in that it asserts that human behavior evolved. That is all ToE says about anything in life. Its up to us to try to figure out how that played itself out over the course of history when it comes to human behavior.

On the other hand, as much as I am a public defender of 'hard science' I am a secret closet fan of speculative theories about human behavior and human capabilities. I root for such fringe theories such as Elaine Morgan's The Descent of Woman, or stuff by William Calvin. Science is more entertaining at the fringes, in those areas where everything is speculative. Especially in the area of human evolution, human behavior, and human consciousness.

By the way, thanks everyone for putting up with my missives. I would be an avid blogger, but it seems that I have a kind of writer's block unless I am actually in debate. I am much more prolific when arguing with someone than when I am simply writing something. Perhaps I should start a blog and just post my LPSG postings.

So I thank Spiker for being an unwitting foil. I really admire his tenacity.

Let's all have another beer now, so we can mutter into the mug. This round is on me.
 
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JustAsking

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I appreciate your admitting that your tone has been one of haranguing. But, I don't think I've responded in a provoked manner. If I have, could you please show me so that I may better control myself? TIA.

I will also say this, JA. I learn a lot from your postings and so I appreciate them more than any others in this forum. I thank you for the time taken. :0)

Nay nay, spiker. This has been great fun and I have enjoyed every aspect of it. You see, although I live in Ohio, I am from the East Coast, not far from NYC. So for me, a great discussion amongst friends is always full of confrontation. Where I come from, you aren't truly friends unless you are all up in each other's grill calling each other names in the middle of the heated debate.

But even so, you have simply but fervently posted your opinions, not in sarcasm and not to provoke anything other than a vigorous discussion. It works for me, spike and judging by the carefully considered comments from others, they saw your posts in the same way as I did. They may not have agreed, but they engaged in the same spirit in which you did.
 

whatireallywant

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I approve of your scepticism about socio-biology (not that you need my approval). But one has to take a difference stance on such things as socio-biology. Although a lot of work is being done in areas like this, the opportunity for clear and objective verification is much less than it is for something like molecular biology. So I would classify socio-biology as impressive but speculative. And I agree and so would a lot of evolutionary biologists that ToE does not explain human behavior except in that it asserts that human behavior evolved. That is all ToE says about anything in life. Its up to us to try to figure out how that played itself out over the course of history when it comes to human behavior.

On the other hand, as much as I am a public defender of 'hard science' I am a secret closet fan of speculative theories about human behavior and human capabilities. I root for such fringe theories such as Elaine Morgan's The Descent of Woman, or stuff by William Calvin. Science is more entertaining at the fringes, in those areas where everything is speculative. Especially in the area of human evolution, human behavior, and human consciousness.

By the way, thanks everyone for putting up with my missives. I would be an avid blogger, but it seems that I have a kind of writer's block unless I am actually in debate. I am much more prolific when arguing with someone than when I am simply writing something. Perhaps I should start a blog and just post my LPSG postings.

So I thank Spiker for being an unwitting foil. I really admire his tenacity.

Let's all have another beer now, so we can mutter into the mug. This round is on me.

I agree... I think there is some lack of objectivity when it comes to research on human behavior. That's why there are so many different personality theories out there! I was a psych major back in the early/mid 80s when sociobiology and that stuff was starting to gain ground, I heard about it a little and thought it was sexist back then, too. My own (un-objective) ideas of human behavior, etc. were closest to Maslow, of all the personality theorists out there.

I've also read some books dissenting from sociobiology, such as Not In Our Genes, Myths of Gender, and Same Difference: How Gender Myths are Hurting Our Relationships, Our Kids, and Our Jobs. I have the book The Mismeasure of Man by Stephen Jay Gould but haven't read it yet. From what I gather he wrote that book as a sort of response to The Bell Curve and some of the racist ideas also coming out of sociobiology.

I'm much more personally comfortable with the more empirical sciences, what with the present emphasis on sociobiology in psychology (and the sexism resulting from that). I have no problem with molecular biology, or really even genetics when it doesn't try to explain away all human behavior by genetics.
 

Guy-jin

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Guy,

This is a long discussion that goes back to other threads. I think I mentioned Pascal's wager back then.

Regardless, I have no dog in this fight. I offer two political solution to a political problem. The questions is can science literalists realize the world they live in and complain about is political? They can jump up and down all they want and cry, "this isn't science" but it isn't pragmatic.

JA, find a political solution to the problem because otherwise you simply aren't going to browbeat science into them.

Guy, could you explain what exactly was a silly stance, the thought on global warming or the foibles of man found in science?

In response to your final question: The former. Global warming deniers have no argument that can defeat Pascal's Wager. However, scientists, like everyone else, are fallible. That said, they're still far more educated than non-scientists when it comes to their particular field, and therefore their opinions regarding that field hold more weight. That's not to say them being right about particular issues more often than laymen means bull-plop in the greater scheme of things. As you said, it's the politics of the time that dictate whether or not anything will be done to fix problems. That is why, if I'm making an argument to support renewable energy in the US, it is typically from the standpoint of eliminating dependence on foreign powers for energy and generating perpetual jobs in America with, "Oh yeah, and it's good for the environment too," thrown in for good measure.

I want to say that your (Guy-jin's) position on Atheism is one that I have the greatest respect for. It is the most honest and reliable justification for Atheism and believe it or not, I could defend it myself pretty well, except for the fact that I am not an Atheist.

This is why I say that my faith is irrational, and I think your position is very rational. Where I do get defensive, though, is when people say that science disproves God either out of ignorance, or out of what I might call scientific fundamentalism.

My previous post explains why I believe that, since it explains what I think are the limits to empiricism (if you consider science as the ultimate practice of empiricism).

Anyway, my favorite Dawkinism is this (when challenged by a rabid Christian): "Ma'am, whether you know it or not, you and I are both Atheists. It just so happens that I disbelieve in one more God than you do."

I suppose it's as rational as one can be in response to the question of whether there's a god or gods. However, it's not that much more rational than your position.

The honest truth, which you clearly see as well, is that while there's no evidence that a god exists, there's no evidence to the contrary either.

From a scientific perspective, the negative stance wins out because there's no reason to assume something exists without evidence of it existing, but intellectual honesty means that any good scientific mind must admit that there is the potential for a god or gods to exist.

I will admit to being one of those evil Atheists who convinces others of his position from time to time. Particularly, agnostic friends who consider becoming more religious, and in two cases Theists who mistakenly came to me to convince me of their perspective first.

I have sat down with one or two of them and discussed why it is that I have no need to believe in god, and why, from a spiritual perspective, a disbelief in god is actually more satisfying than a belief in god. These conversations rarely if ever have anything to do with "evidence" of there not being a god, but instead are about my feelings about why a godless universe is more satisfying and fulfilling than one that depends on an all-powerful, anthropomorphic deity.

Anyway, I suppose that's why I find Dawkins' recent work a bit tasteless. It actually works against the approach I might take to make a case for Atheism by belittling Theists and considering spirituality as foolishness, which is clearly a fallacy given that humans appear to naturally be spiritual.
 

B_spiker067

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In response to your final question: The former. Global warming deniers have no argument that can defeat Pascal's Wager. However, scientists, like everyone else, are fallible. That said, they're still far more educated than non-scientists when it comes to their particular field, and therefore their opinions regarding that field hold more weight. That's not to say them being right about particular issues more often than laymen means bull-plop in the greater scheme of things. As you said, it's the politics of the time that dictate whether or not anything will be done to fix problems. That is why, if I'm making an argument to support renewable energy in the US, it is typically from the standpoint of eliminating dependence on foreign powers for energy and generating perpetual jobs in America with, "Oh yeah, and it's good for the environment too," thrown in for good measure.

I've said this here before. Global warming is the liberal WMD's. Same lie to get something done.

If we wanted to change as fast as global alarmist have insisted on (to save their street cred) we'd pay exorbitant prices to do so. Should global warming NOT occur people will be more recalcitrant towards change and believe science very able to promulgate lies. When science, at some future date says, "Save the sharks - stop finning them - you're killing the oceans!!!" Or, "Deforestation is some serious shit dude, here look at the science." Well, the layman is going to tell science to sod off.

The argument is simple. "If global warming isn't man made, then the price of a barrel of oil sure as hell is." Pssst. Psst. the solution is biodiesel from algae, look into it.

As far as your atheism goes, to each his own. But if it is as well thought out as your anthroGW is that it is a pascals wager....

Good luck with that.

Peace.
 

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...The honest truth, which you clearly see as well, is that while there's no evidence that a god exists, there's no evidence to the contrary either.

From a scientific perspective, the negative stance wins out because there's no reason to assume something exists without evidence of it existing, but intellectual honesty means that any good scientific mind must admit that there is the potential for a god or gods to exist.....

Actually, I think you are too easy on the negative argument. I think it is a very weak reason to believe in God because there is no evidence against God existing. As you know, you can make the same argument about Zeus or even the Flying Spaghetti Monster. That argument never worked for me. In fact no rational argument ever worked for me.

I think you should call yourself an Evangelical Atheist. Actually, I do a lot of the same thing, in that I spend a lot of time convincing people that the God of American Christian Fundamentalism doesn't exist. I am very adept at the conversion process taking people from believing in the nasty God that punishes people for all eternity who smoke cigarettes and swear, to the God whose love for his creation and its inhabitants is unconditional regardless of their frailties.

The people who resists this conversion away from their abusive God are those who would also stay in an abusive relationship with a spouse.
 

JustAsking

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I've said this here before. Global warming is the liberal WMD's. Same lie to get something done.
...

I can't follow you here, spiker. To do so I would have to imagine that somehow climatologists all around the world coming from all religioius, political, economic, and cultural situations, somehow conspire with each other in secret Internet chat rooms in order to promulgate a lie to the world.

I would have to imagine that they are doing this because Al Gore and Ted Kennedy have flown around the world enlisting all the scientists, sometimes against their economic interests, to join the all important cause of American liberal politics.

Not me please, because here we are entering the land of tin-foil hats where we imagine liberals lurk behind every tree looking to lie to the public about AGW and perhaps molest a few children.

I can't go here with you spiker. But I do invite you join your ever so reasonable colleagues in your campaign.
 

B_spiker067

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I can't follow you here, spiker. To do so I would have to imagine that somehow climatologists all around the world coming from all religioius, political, economic, and cultural situations, somehow conspire with each other in secret Internet chat rooms in order to promulgate a lie to the world.

I would have to imagine that they are doing this because Al Gore and Ted Kennedy have flown around the world enlisting all the scientists, sometimes against their economic interests, to join the all important cause of American liberal politics.

Not me please, because here we are entering the land of tin-foil hats where we imagine liberals lurk behind every tree looking to lie to the public about AGW and perhaps molest a few children.

I can't go here with you spiker. But I do invite you join your ever so reasonable colleagues in your campaign.

Time will tell if scientists motivated by research funding did good/bad science.

You said you are a Deist. Does that allow for a J.C. or alot?
 
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B_spiker067

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No, I think you misunderstood me at some point. I am no Deist.

I read it wrong. See below.

Why are you asking me about God evacuating the universe. I am not a Deist.

But I distinctly remember you telling me about an idea (had name and everything) that talked about God creating the universe and taking himself out of it. It was a cool thought. I'll have to look for that post. I looked for the Job post before asking you for it but it is not the one I remember. I must have seen another draft somewhere.
 

Guy-jin

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Actually, I think you are too easy on the negative argument. I think it is a very weak reason to believe in God because there is no evidence against God existing. As you know, you can make the same argument about Zeus or even the Flying Spaghetti Monster. That argument never worked for me. In fact no rational argument ever worked for me.

Sure, but the FSM is a rational argument. It's a silly argument, but it's still rational. :biggrin1:

I think you should call yourself an Evangelical Atheist. Actually, I do a lot of the same thing, in that I spend a lot of time convincing people that the God of American Christian Fundamentalism doesn't exist. I am very adept at the conversion process taking people from believing in the nasty God that punishes people for all eternity who smoke cigarettes and swear, to the God whose love for his creation and its inhabitants is unconditional regardless of their frailties.

The people who resists this conversion away from their abusive God are those who would also stay in an abusive relationship with a spouse.

I mean, look at what spiker067 just said to me. He basically said he thinks I'm stupid and that my religious beliefs are a result of me being stupid.

This is the kind of thing Atheists have to put up with from Theists. Is it any wonder we have a man like Dawkins representing us? I suppose we should feel "fortunate" that we're not put to death for being godless. :rolleyes:

And to be very blunt, part of the "evangelism" I might practice is to explain why Atheism empowers me spiritually and emotionally. I am not shackled to thanking somebody else for "letting" me win a game, or for "earning" me a Ph.D. I did those things of my own volition, through my own hard effort.

What's the first thing so many people say after they accomplish something great? "Thank God." They thank God before they thank their parents! I find it appalling, quite honestly. As you said, it's completely irrational. But, worse than that, it's self-deprecating more in order to empower the church than for any meaningful spiritual reason.

Ironically I think it would be far more difficult to turn someone secure in his beliefs and open to alternative ideas like yourself than it would be turn someone rigid and closed-minded. Not that I would ever try to convert you to my evil ways. :wink: