Lpsg democratic primary

Who are you going to vote for in your state's primary/caucus?

  • Clinton

    Votes: 12 38.7%
  • Sanders

    Votes: 15 48.4%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 4 12.9%

  • Total voters
    31
D

deleted15807

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I would not say Mrs. Clinton is closing the door - we know what it looks like. The reality is the country as a whole has been brain washed on single payer as a communist plot to take our guns so there is no political viability to making that leap. If more Congressmen get elected supporting single payer, her doors will be open if for no other reason than there are votes there.

And perhaps she recalls how the Republican Congress which was way far left than the one we have today shut down HillaryCare for 10+ years and it was dead dead dead until luck would have it the Dems won both houses in 2008 and the White House. Which is the only reason we have ObamaCare now. The likelihood of that happening again is slim. If it were not for the Wall Street meltdown in the fall of 2008 we could very well not have ObamaCare and would have had President McCain and VP Sarah Palin.

We can take apart Hillary for not being the perfect candidate however that will inevitably pave the way for something much worst. President Trump. And a government from everyone's nightmares.


Case in point John Boehner. He was forced to resign thanks to what he termed 'false prophets'; the delusional base that thought they could in fact achieve their goals when it simply wasn't possible, the votes just are not there. You can have your "ideologically pure" candidate of your dreams but it means nothing if a.) they are not elected and b.)they do not have the votes to make their promises reality. What will stick in people's' mind is the candidate and their goals are losers and we won't do that again.

Executive Summary: I am voting not "for" Hillary but against a fascist racist sexist xenophobic Donald Trump presidency.
 
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keenobserver

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How Brave of Secretary Clinton. She'll support Single Payer if the "Votes are there". I prefer my candidate to operate on the courage of their convictions rather with a wind-testing finger in the air. It seems Secretary Clinton has a habit of this: marriage equality, Iraq, criminal justice reform, TPP, NAFTA, Keystone, Cuban Embargo, No Child Left Behind, DNC Lobbyist Fundraising, Wall Street etc......

You are 100% correct. No agreement from me. However politics is always been and will always be "the art of the possible." What brings you closer to your goal - Hillary or Trump? Half a loaf really is better than none. No one eats ideals when they have no food. The finger in the air style of leadership has been the Clinton Hallmark forever.
 

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We tried the "govern similar to Republicans so they will support our republican-lite ideas" the last 8 years with Obama and we previously did that with Clinton for 8 years. It never works and and it doesn't work for very simple reasons.

The first reason is that American politics is basically an ongoing & constant negotiation between two ideologies or "sides". This negotiation is how our laws are made and how anything gets done outside of the Supreme Court.

When you negotiate... you start out with what you dream about having and if you are lucky, you only get negotiated down to what you actually want... and in the worst case scenario... what you most desperately need.

The Democrats have been starting their negotiations with what they most desperately need and routinely get worked down to what they really don't want at all... it's not rocket science.

Hillary's Republican-lite proposals will get whittled down into actual Republican proposals... EXACTLY how Barack Obama's administration went down. Bernie Sanders' Socialist proposals will just get whittled down into a sort of Republican-lite Hillary style proposal that will actually help stabilize our country's free fall into gross decline... it's not rocket science.

The second reason is that Hillary Clinton is a hardcore partisan Democrat that is reviled and hated by the Republican base to the Nth degree. Bernie Sanders is NOT a partisan... he's a middle of the road centrist politician who has always garnered great support from the Republicans and Independents. Many so-called Independents are actually closet Republicans who have conservative ideologies but are usually pretty disgusted by the Republican party's antics and ridiculous platforms... those people will have NO problem both voting for Bernie Sanders and in SUPPORTING his platform. Hillary Clinton won't get an ounce of their support... they will all vote for Trump.

Decent and respectable Republicans will be grossed out by a Trump presidency and will have zero problems voting for Bernie... Hillary Clinton's negatives with these folks are just too deeply entrenched.

The country doesn't know what Democratic Socialism is and when it's explained to them, think it's a decent idea. People are willing to try new things and to cling to the pantsuit of a reviled partisan who supports Republican-lite policies will be the UNDOING OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

A vote for Hillary is also a vote for the status quo of the Democratic party not energizing their base with progressive ideals... this leads to depressed midterm turn-outs and locks the Dems into a Executive branch only party... which is a fucking corner you DON'T wanna be in. A vote for Bernie is a vote for a progressive Revolution which will ignite the spirit of "solutions to problems" and a roadmap to prosperity and greater peace around the world. This revolution will sweep the Democrats into being energized because we are all fighting for true ideals... something that is REAL and not an empty slogan... we'll never lose another midterm again and we will take back our country through progressive ideals not limousine liberalism.

Vote Bernie

Bernie will not be perceived as a centrist in my lifetime proposing that a 70 plus percent tax rate is good. Game Set Match GOP.
 

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Bernie will not be perceived as a centrist in my lifetime proposing that a 70 plus percent tax rate is good. Game Set Match GOP.
Is Bernie really proposing a 70-plus-percent tax rate?
It seems to me that the suggestion is actually for a maximum marginal tax rate of 52 percent, which would only kick in on incomes over $10 million.
Happy to be educated though. I am not an American and not as immersed in all this stuff as many of you.
 

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Is Bernie really proposing a 70-plus-percent tax rate?
It seems to me that the suggestion is actually for a maximum marginal tax rate of 52 percent, which would only kick in on incomes over $10 million.

keenobserver knows good and well that this nation built a strong middle class with tax rates around 90% for that same income bracket... he also knows that the foolish abandonment of this practice coupled with the public's tacit acceptance of fairy tales like "trickle down" economics as fact has truly signified the middle class' sheer reluctance to fight for a well running system where the wealthy elite pay their share.

keenobserver also knows that this has permeated how Americans tax revenue from corporations and Wall Street... better to keep tax rates low for the uber elite right?

Hence, we never have enough money to pay for any meaningful infrastructure spending or social programs that actually lift people out of poverty and lives of despair... and the cycle of poverty and a decaying infrastructure continues.

He doesn't give a shit because he's in the can for Hillary even though she's weak in every respect except for her NeoCon credibility... she's got that in spades over Sanders.

Happy to be educated though. I am not an American...

You're probably too good for 'Mehricuh.
 

ConanTheBarber

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He doesn't give a shit because he's in the can for Hillary even though she's weak in every respect except for her NeoCon credibility... she's got that in spades over Sanders.

I think Hillary has many faults but I far prefer her to any of the Republican candidates.
I doubt that keenobserver is quite as cynical as you make him out to be. If you studied his manner in depth, you would be a more effective poster.
When he says, "Game Set Match GOP," he is, to my eye, only agreeing with your history of how historically high tax rates came about.
He's not personally opposing higher tax rates.
He is only saying—quite rightly, in my view—that with the well as poisoned as it is now, American voters would never accept a 70-percent tax rate. And I agree with him. I doubt they would accept a 52-percent tax rate; it seems to me something just under 50 percent would be more palatable, though still a bit of a stretch, though maybe not forever.
But he's only talking about the politics of it ... NOT expressing his own view. (Well, he may be expressing his own view, but I don't get that directly from his post.)

EDIT: I just looked up maximum personal tax rates in Scandinavia, the homeland of democratic socialism.
Norway 46.9
Sweden 59.7
Denmark 51.95
The U.S. will never get anywhere near any of these levels, except, possibly, Norway's. But not any time soon.
Not that it wouldn't be desirable; not that it would be desirable.
Just that: It. ain't. gonna. happen.
For purely political reasons.
 
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keenobserver

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Is Bernie really proposing a 70-plus-percent tax rate?
It seems to me that the suggestion is actually for a maximum marginal tax rate of 52 percent, which would only kick in on incomes over $10 million.
Happy to be educated though. I am not an American and not as immersed in all this stuff as many of you.

The 70 present rate is what the top rate was all through the mid 20th century until Reagan took office. How many people actually paid that much? Other than ball player Ted Williams and other athletes who did not know how to hide their money not that many. That isn't really the point (it should be the point, but its not!). When McGovern ran for president he lost labor (when labor really mattered) by proposing high inheritance taxes on the uber wealthy. Then wealthy was an estate over 500K. Few Americans had reached that threshold and when you considered when it would kick in - after 500K fewer would be affected by it. Did not matter. It killed him with the middle class - not because it would hurt them, but because it seemed to undermine the idea that you could work hard and accumulate great wealth. Why bother if it all goes to Uncle Sam?

The electorate is dumber now than at anytime in our history. You will not ever educate them to the idea that anyone having to give up 52% (plus State and local taxes) is a god idea when your main media is Twitter and Fox. It will not happen.

If these ideas were so great - why was Bernie fairly quiet on them until he ran for president? He was not known for making proposals this far left in a serious election prior to this one. I like that Bernie has pulled Hillary more to the center left than she and Bill were before. The single payer health care could work, but half the electorate thinks mandatory insurance is a commie plot that killed George Washington.

Leaders build bridges so their followers can cross a divide. Bernie is in effect leading people to the edge of the divide and saying "Jump!" . It isn't going to work. Hillary is not perfect - far from it but she is more seasoned in dealing with the right than Bernie plus she is better attuned to international issues. Her finger in the air style can be an asset to the left as opposed to an idealist that cannot win an election.
 
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keenobserver

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keenobserver knows good and well that this nation built a strong middle class with tax rates around 90% for that same income bracket... he also knows that the foolish abandonment of this practice coupled with the public's tacit acceptance of fairy tales like "trickle down" economics as fact has truly signified the middle class' sheer reluctance to fight for a well running system where the wealthy elite pay their share.

keenobserver also knows that this has permeated how Americans tax revenue from corporations and Wall Street... better to keep tax rates low for the uber elite right?

Hence, we never have enough money to pay for any meaningful infrastructure spending or social programs that actually lift people out of poverty and lives of despair... and the cycle of poverty and a decaying infrastructure continues.

He doesn't give a shit because he's in the can for Hillary even though she's weak in every respect except for her NeoCon credibility... she's got that in spades over Sanders.



You're probably too good for 'Mehricuh.

keenobserver knows what will get elected and what won't.

You are not wrong about America's prosperity during those years - however we also did not have much of a minimum wage either and we made everything here - not in 3rd world countries. I'd like to bring the jobs back but I don't see it happening anytime soon. I am interested in moving forward, not backward. I'll take my progress where I can find it, not hold out for everything and wind up with nothing.
 
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The 70 present rate is what the top rate was all through the mid 20th century until Reagan took office. How many people actually paid that much? Other than ball player Ted Williams and other athletes who did not know how to hide their money not that many. That isn't really the point (it should be the point, but its not!). When McGovern ran for president he lost labor (when labor really mattered) by proposing high inheritance taxes on the uber wealthy. Then wealthy was an estate over 500K. Few Americans had reached that threshold and when you considered when it would kick in - after 500K fewer would be affected by it. Did not matter. It killed him with the middle class - not because it would hurt them, but because it seemed to undermine the idea that you could work hard and accumulate great wealth. Why bother if it all goes to Uncle Sam?

The electorate is dumber now than at anytime in our history. You will not ever educate them to the idea that anyone having to give up 52% (plus State and local taxes) is a god idea when your main media is Twitter and Fox. It will not happen.

If these ideas were so great - why was Bernie fairly quiet on them until he ran for president? He was not known for making proposals this far left in a serious election prior to this one. I like that Bernie has pulled Hillary more to the center left than she and Bill were before. The single payer health care could work, but half the electorate thinks mandatory insurance is a commie plot that killed George Washington.

Leaders build bridges so their followers can cross a divide. Bernie is in effect leading people to the edge of the divide and saying "Jump!" . It isn't going to work. Hillary is not perfect - far from it but she is more seasoned in dealing with the right than Bernie plus she is better attuned to international issues. Her finger in the air style can be an asset to the left as opposed to an idealist that cannot win an election.
I agree with all of this, but our point of departure seemed to be your suggestion that Bernie was suggesting a 70-percent tax rate.
He's a bit wacko (God bless 'im), but not that wacko. (As I suggested, he seemed to be in favour of a more plausible 52-percent rate; still too high, but not outright foolish.)
That's what my post was about.

EDIT: The maximum tax rate when Reagan came into office was not 70 percent, but 50 percent, if I am not mistaken.
 
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keenobserver knows what will get elected and what won't.

You are not wrong about America's prosperity during those years - however we also did not have much of a minimum wage either and we made everything here - not in 3rd world countries. I'd like to bring the jobs back but I don't see it happening anytime soon. I am interested in moving forward, not backward. I'll take my progress where I can find it, not hold out for everything and wind up with nothing
.
The jobs will never come back. Globalization did wonderful things in reducing poverty in the Developing World, but this progress was bought on the backs of the workers of the already industrialized nations.
I don't think there was any way around this.
And one might argue that this was, on balance, good.
But no American steelworker would think so.
 

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keenobserver knows what will get elected and what won't.

No you don't because Trump will fucking clobber Clinton and you are completely ignorant to her inability to gather Independent and swing voters.

I think Hillary has many faults but I far prefer her to any of the Republican candidates.

Hillary has a 100% chance of staring WWIII... Trump might keep us out of it.

If you studied his manner in depth, you would be a more effective poster.

I'm not interested in swaying people's concrete and set in place ideologies... I'm interested in telling the truth. What happens after that, is what it is... how people react to the truth is unique to everyone. It shouldn't be... but it's the reality that many people aren't interested in the truth. They aren't interested in it because they are cynical and don't believe in it any more. They are big grown up adults who have discarded the altruism of childhood in favor of the apathy and resignation.
 
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I'm not interested in swaying people's concrete and set in place ideologies... I'm interested in telling the truth.
You are the most ideological of people.
And your command of the truth is not as absolute as you think.
And if you commanded the truth the way you think you do, you nonetheless are a perfect reminder of a saying: Good causes attract bad advocates.
 

Boobalaa

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Hillary will lose to tRump..you guys are talking like she will win, or something..get real..Remember..don't get all gushy mushy, just cuz media pundits want you to..a win is a win..yes..ok..you're a winner, until you lose again..and visa versa..
 
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rbkwp

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no other world leader/potential, ever acts like a reality clown ..



agree boobs, unfortunate as it is

but from an outsidetrs point of view
the USA that are not Trump suporters can rest assured for what its worth, that many if not most thruout the world, are seeing American politics as to how it has degenerated, since the Obama cant do this or that days, not just the now with idiot Trump
 
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keenobserver

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Hillary will lose to tRump..you guys are talking like she will win, or something..get real..Remember..don't get all gushy mushy, just cuz media pundits want you to..a win is a win..yes..ok..you're a winner, until you lose again..and visa versa..

Absent an indictment - Hillary v. Trump , Hillary wins and not even real close.
 
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ConanTheBarber

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Absent an indictment - Hillary v. Trump , Hillary wins and not even real close.
Well, this ought to be true, but then, Trump ought to have faded into the wallpaper a long time ago.
He has swinging balls and not much else—but there's quite a market for swinging balls ... and not much else.
I do think Hillary will win, but I'm prepared to eat a lot of crow on this one.
 

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zo is the NYT trying to stir shit re Clintons chances,or what
positive/negative ..



day, February 28, 2016


NYTimes.com »
Sunday, February 28, 2016


Special Report: Hillary Clinton, ‘Smart Power’ and a Dictator’s Fall

The president was wary. The secretary of state was persuasive. But the ouster of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi left Libya a failed state and a terrorist haven.
This is a detailed accounting of how Hillary Clinton’s deep belief in America’s power to do good in the world ran aground in a tribal country with no functioning government, rival factions and a staggering quantity of arms.
For this two-part series, The Times interviewed more than 50 American, Libyan and European officials, including many of the principal actors. They expressed regret, frustration and in some cases bewilderment about what went wrong and what might have been done differently.
Read more »
 
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tripod

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You are the most ideological of people.

If you are talking about the ideology of sticking up for the underdog, downbeaten, persecuted and the oppressed... while constantly advocating against regime change and hegemonic power... then that's true.

Should I stick up for: the powerful, the favorites, the entrenched, the elite... the narcissists, the privileged while advocating the overthrow of stable regimes and or democratically elected leaders? Should I equivocate more? Nah... I like having strong ideals... they come out of having strong moral convictions. I know what is right and what is wrong... everyone does... I just have the balls to stick to my original rational belief that good will always trump evil... there are not enough men of conviction these days... hence the quivering pieces of jello that are Hillary supporters.

And your command of the truth is not as absolute as you think.

That's not how the truth works. Nobody "commands" the truth. The truth rings like a bell and has a immutable core. The truth can only be revealed, it cannot be commanded.

you nonetheless are a perfect reminder of a saying: Good causes attract bad advocates.

Where is this saying popular? I've never heard it... I'm not doubting it's existence as a quote but just calling bullshit that it's some sort of universally accepted nugget of wisdom like "A stitch in time saves nine".

The premise is bullshit... like the opposite is better? So I'm a bad advocate of good causes and you're a good advocate of bad causes?

Sounds about right to me.

It's adorable that your boyfriends all liked your post. That's probably the best way to argue against me... prop up a smarter debater who is more of a worthy opponent.
 

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zo is the NYT trying to stir shit re Clintons chances,or what
positive/negative ..



day, February 28, 2016


NYTimes.com »
Sunday, February 28, 2016


Special Report: Hillary Clinton, ‘Smart Power’ and a Dictator’s Fall

The president was wary. The secretary of state was persuasive. But the ouster of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi left Libya a failed state and a terrorist haven.
This is a detailed accounting of how Hillary Clinton’s deep belief in America’s power to do good in the world ran aground in a tribal country with no functioning government, rival factions and a staggering quantity of arms.
For this two-part series, The Times interviewed more than 50 American, Libyan and European officials, including many of the principal actors. They expressed regret, frustration and in some cases bewilderment about what went wrong and what might have been done differently.
Read more »
Well golly gee wiz..wonder who the NYT is for , hunh?..shucks, Wonder how that happened, hunh?..Howabout the NYT doing a story on the NYT's reporting of what questions were not asked and why they weren't asked? All this hindsight shit, is just frosting, distraction ment to be analysis..
 
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